[el lobo 6061]

RD I had expected more mature answers from you all, but you just tried to prove how tuning box is better than remap.

But none the less to all bhpains who are in dilemma whether remap or tuning box. Drive back to back two cars one with remap & other with tuning box and you will understand why a custom tuned remap would any day trump over a tuning box.

I would like to end it with following.

When I was looking to increase power on my car, 1.4 TDCi, RD DieselTronic was also one contender, but two things never worked out for me.

1. Four modes : Why would I need Economy & stock mode when I want to remap my car. Both modes serve no use to a person who wants more power. My car are always self driven.

2.Need to shift between modes P1 & P2. I'm driving in P1 mode and need more power, first get my mind of road, change mode by a remote and then drive. Whereas in remap my car is always in P2 mode. No need for any mode changes.

3.Lastly, the mess of wires in engine bay. Rats would have a field day.
RD DieselTronic Dual Channel for i20 6-Speed CRDi.



Source:

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

If someone says I got warranty replacements after an engine mod,be warned its an exception rather than the norm.

The manufacturers can and will find out about any mods you may have done to your engine. They made that engine and know it better than any tuner out there. They have the means and will dig deep if they have to. The only saving grace may be your rep with SA,but I doubt if they can help if some big-ticket item fails.

Except German manufacturers no other brand ever scans ECU on service. Even if they scan, they will never find anything unusual, since its all compatible. No error code will be thrown.

If by chance you have to get any major part replaced, ECU can always be flashed back to stock and later back to remap.

Originally Posted by humyum

Common, I know you sell both these items and would not want to upmarket one over the other, but at least give the readers a clear picture.

-SNIP-

And I do not mean any offence to anyone here !

Humyum has very much summed it up very well. I don't think any more elaboration is needed.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Attachment 1236539

Hey, that 'Turbo Boost Original' in the picture is actually connected to the MAF ( Mass Air Flow sensor) and its not a boost controller

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Except German manufacturers no other brand ever scans ECU on service. Even if they scan, they will never find anything unusual, since its all compatible. No error code will be thrown.

If by chance you have to get any major part replaced, ECU can always be flashed back to stock and later back to remap.

Sorry i've to disagree with this.

This is what the tuners would want you to believe,but the truth is far from that. There is no such thing as an 'untraceable' map.

My friend had a failed turbo post remapping his Swift. He reflashed to stock and tried claiming warranty.

No idea what the MASS guys did(refused to divulge any details), but he got a mail and a call from Maruti Suzuki saying warranty is not applicable on his car as its been 'modified/altered' in their language.

This is a centre which services 20-25 cars on weekdays and ~40 on weekends, if they have the time to dig deep any manufacturer can. Also, i'm still to come across a tuner promises who warranty will be intact on remap. They cleverly use terms such as 'virtually untraceable' bla bla

Remap or tuning box,warranty is void. Period.

[el lobo 6061]

Originally Posted by humyum

Hey, that 'Turbo Boost Original' in the picture is actually connected to the MAF ( Mass Air Flow sensor) and its not a boost controller

Its a RaceDynamics Dual Channel box controlling both fuel & turbo. Used image for representation purpose.

Yes, its connected to MAF sensor, just like I have in my Vento 1.6 TDi. Maybe RD can elaborate about where all their dual channel box gets connected too.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Sorry i've to disagree with this.

This is what the tuners would want you to believe,but the truth is far from that. There is no such thing as an 'untraceable' map.

-SNIP-

Remap or tuning box,warranty is void. Period.

Can you tell me who the tuner was, who tuned your friends Swift.

Likewise both Kiirus & Tune-O-Tronics tune high end cars from a Swift to Jaguars. Never were there any issues.

Once if you re-flash stock ECU remap and drive car for 50 kms, it should be untraceable.

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

ICan you tell me who the tuner was, who tuned your friends Swift.

I will get back to you on this after consulting my friend. This is something which was settled between them post the fiasco,I don't want to post it here without either parties absolute consent.

Likewise both Kiirus & Tune-O-Tronics tune high end cars from a Swift to Jaguars. Never were there any issues.

Once if you re-flash stock ECU remap and drive car for 50 kms, it should be untraceable.

Whichever car it is, Suzuki or BMW, I reiterate there is no such thing as an untraceable map,tuning boxes may be tougher to trace. Its what they want you to believe,if you chose to do so its your wish!

Do you think any manufacturer would gladly agree to replace a blown turbo without checking what went wrong on their engine ? And, they're so naive that they can't find who messed with the engine they manufactured ?

[humyum]

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Do you think any manufacturer would gladly agree to replace a blown turbo without checking what went wrong on their engine ? And, they're so naive that they can't find who messed with the engine they manufactured ?

When checking for the workings of a turbo, all they will look at is the X boost at X rpm and compare that to the Maruti specified readings. Of course, if the car is remapped, the readings for other parameters won't match or will show higher readings than what they are supposed to be, but in case of a blown turbo, the service station if they probe further will realize that you have remapped it only if the remap is still present on the car. Once the remap is removed and the stock map loaded back, NO Maruti service station on this planet can make out that the car was remaped before with an SDT or tech 2. So that question is out of question.

A turbo can go wrong because of quite a few other reasons too, dust particles damaging the impeller of the turbo, over filled engine oil, damaged oil seal etc etc. As a primarily check of the turbo the air filter will be cleaned, intercooler cleaned, plumbing checked for leaks and then when that is done, a test drive taken to see if all this did sort anything out. If everything is fine, well you are done then, if not, then the SDT comes in the picture and RPM vs Boost readings are analysed with an SDT connected.

Mine was replaced some 50 thousand km back when it started making a slight srrrrrrrr sound when it used to come to boost at 2000 rpm, no questions asked. 3 hours flat I had the car back.

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by humyum

When checking for the workings of a turbo, all they will look at is the X boost at X rpm and compare that to the Maruti specified readings. Of course, if the car is remapped, the readings for other parameters won't match or will show higher readings than what they are supposed to be, but in case of a blown turbo, the service station if they probe further will realize that you have remapped it only if the remap is still present on the car. Once the remap is removed and the stock map loaded back, NO Maruti service station on this planet can make out that the car was remaped before with an SDT or tech 2. So that question is out of question

Could you explain how they traced the remap then ? If i'm not wrong the spikes/error codes will be stored ECM ROM even after the drive cycle is completed,and the car was with MASS for 2 weeks.

A turbo can go wrong because of quite a few other reasons too, dust particles damaging the impeller of the turbo, over filled engine oil, damaged oil seal etc etc. As a primarily check of the turbo the air filter will be cleaned, intercooler cleaned, plumbing checked for leaks and then when that is done, a test drive taken to see if all this did sort anything out. If everything is fine, well you are done then, if not, then the SDT comes in the picture and RPM vs Boost readings are analysed with an SDT connected.

I'm not disagreeing that a turbo can go wrong for various reasons. However, when MASS found the remap they blatantly refused warranty claims and refused to admit any wrongdoing on their part.

Mine was replaced some 50 thousand km back when it started making a slight srrrrrrrr sound when it used to come to boost at 2000 rpm, no questions asked. 3 hours flat I had the car back.Mine was replaced some 50 thousand km back when it started making a slight srrrrrrrr sound when it used to come to boost at 2000 rpm, no questions asked. 3 hours flat I had the car back.

Was your car stock or remapped?
There may be many cases where customers were *lucky* to get warranty approvals after remaps. Doesn't mean the next one won't be caught.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Could you explain how they traced the remap then ? If i'm not wrong the spikes/error codes will be stored ECM ROM even after the drive cycle is completed,and the car was with MASS for 2 weeks.

I am sure your friend did not call the tuner to the service station where his car was and ask him to reflash the ECU to a stock map there. So whatever the error code was before on the remapped map, will again show up with the car is driven after the reflash to the stock ECU unless the problem itself does not show again. Maybe he had the tuners stickers on the car and the Maruti service station decided to take a chance and your friend got caught, but otherwise there is no way of knowing the car had a remap if the ECU was reflashed again with the stock map and driven for a few kilometers.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

I'm not disagreeing that a turbo can go wrong for various reasons. However, when MASS found the remap they blatantly refused warranty claims and refused to admit any wrongdoing on their part.

There may be many cases where customers were *lucky* to get warranty approvals after remaps. Doesn't mean the next one won't be caught.

Well if I was your friend I would have asked them to 'prove it' or the matter will be escalated to Maruti. They can no way prove the car was remapped before.

Of course remapping is an art and if not done well, can damage a lot of things and I in no way encourage to get a complete noob to remap your car, damage it during the warranty period and then put the blame on the manufacture by warranty claiming something which clearly was the fault of the tuner, but what I am trying to tell you is 'A remap after it has been removed, reflashed to the stock map and driven some kilometers, cannot be detected'

Same with a tuning box, remove it before going to the service station, drive a a few kilometers and the service station will never know you had one.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Was your car stock or remapped?
There may be many cases where customers were *lucky* to get warranty approvals after remaps. Doesn't mean the next one won't be caught.

Stock and they had not even touched the SDT before sanctioning the turbo replacement. Lucky is one thing, being fooled by a mass into not giving a replacement is another. One of my friends was told, his 14 thousand Swift Diesel had a clutch failure because he drove the car with the hand brake on, He argued a bit, but he is not a technical person, so he just agreed to replace it at his own cost. In the evening when he told me the story, I told him to take me to the MASS the next day. The service adviser gave me the same jazz, I directly told him 'Okay, open the rear brake drums and lets check the liners and drums to certain if the car was driven with the handbrake on or not.

Instant stammer and I ll get back to you reasoning bla bla, Result--> Clutch was replaced in warranty.

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by humyum

I am sure your friend did not call the tuner to the service station where his car was and ask him to reflash the ECU to a stock map there. So whatever the error code was before on the remapped map, will again show up with the car is driven after the reflash to the stock ECU unless the problem itself does not show again.

Well we went to the tuner a week before servicing and his car clocks 300 kms a week at the minimum. So if you're saying it disappears, I disagree and I speak with experience than going by hearsay. If that was the case,he wouldn't have to pay up for that turbo.

Maybe he had the tuners stickers on the car and the Maruti service station decided to take a chance and your friend got caught, but otherwise there is no way of knowing the car had a remap if the ECU was reflashed again with the stock map and driven for a few kilometers.

Well he had some random after market mod stickers on his car,not of the tuner. IF what you're saying is true and the tuner flashed stock map,how did the 'chance' taken by MASS yield favorable results then ?

Well if I was your friend I would have asked them to 'prove it' or the matter will be escalated to Maruti. They can no way prove the car was remapped before.

He received a mail from the warranty claims guys IIRC,it happened in 2012 so I don't remember the name and designation very well. The matter was escalated to Maruti and they were in the know of things.

Of course remapping is an art and if not done well, can damage a lot of things and I in no way encourage to get a complete noob to remap your car, damage it during the warranty period and then put the blame on the manufacture by warranty claiming something which clearly was the fault of the tuner, but what I am trying to tell you is 'A remap after it has been removed, reflashed to the stock map and driven some kilometers, cannot be detected'
Same with a tuning box, remove it before going to the service station, drive a a few kilometers and the service station will never know you had one.

I disagree based on experience. However, if you choose to believe otherwise I don't want to impose my opinion on you. I posted here since el lobo had declared warranty won't be void which the tuners themselves don't say! They slyly write 90% cars enjoy warranty post remapping, I definitely don't want to be in the 10% and later stare at 4 or 5 figure bills based on the spare part cost.

EDIT: Let's not bring in lack of knowledge here, my friend is an automobile engineer from one of the best colleges in bangalore. He surely knew what he was upto and was certainly not tricked by MASS. If you had a stock car and got a replacement, I don't find it proving anything other than 'keep your car stock to enjoy warranty'.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Well we went to the tuner a week before servicing and his car clocks 300 kms a week at the minimum. So if you're saying it disappears, I disagree and I speak with experience than going by hearsay. If that was the case,he wouldn't have to pay up for that turbo.

I have worked on quite a lot of remaps and automotive components. Have written an article on remap vs tuning box for a very reputed automotive magazine too.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

I disagree based on experience. However, if you choose to believe otherwise I don't want to impose my opinion on you. I posted here since el lobo had declared warranty won't be void which the tuners themselves don't say! They slyly write 90% cars enjoy warranty post remapping, I definitely don't want to be in the 10% and later stare at 4 or 5 figure bills based on the spare part cost.

Sorry, that's not what he said,

He said " Except German manufacturers no other brand ever scans ECU on service. Even if they scan, they will never find anything unusual, since its all compatible. No error code will be thrown.

If by chance you have to get any major part replaced, ECU can always be flashed back to stock and later back to remap"

^^^ his exact words.

Tuners admit that if a remapped car is checked with a SDT connected, the service station will come to know its remmaped if they have a keen eye. Neither of them admit that after a remap is removed and a stock map is loaded, the earlier remap will be known by the service station.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

EDIT: Let's not bring in lack of knowledge here, my friend is an automobile engineer from one of the best colleges in bangalore. He surely knew what he was upto and was certainly not tricked by MASS. If you had a stock car and got a replacement, I don't find it proving anything other than 'keep your car stock to enjoy warranty'.

I am an automotive engineer too from Coventry University in UK and have worked on all this quite a lot, hence the explanation. There is no lack of knowledge from my side atleast, its just plain facts. I have not remaped by car because I am not into all that and by my explanation of the car being stock and turbo being replaced, all I wanted to tell you is that they don't check the ECU for anything and everything.

If you complain of lack of boost, turbo kick not being violent enough bla bla, they might check the ECU with the SDT as a last resort after trying some of the basic fixes out.

Anyway, lets agree to disagree.

[el lobo 6061]

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Could you explain how they traced the remap then ? If i'm not wrong the spikes/error codes will be stored ECM ROM even after the drive cycle is completed,and the car was with MASS for 2 weeks.

Even after reflash maybe error codes are still stored. Then MASS may have read those error codes & would come to conclusion of engine remap resulting in blown turbo.

Your friend could have got his car reflashed to stock ECU and later cleared codes via ELM327 connector. Drive car for 50 kms. There is no chance any technical engineer at MASS can trace it.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Well we went to the tuner a week before servicing and his car clocks 300 kms a week at the minimum. So if you're saying it disappears, I disagree and I speak with experience than going by hearsay. If that was the case,he wouldn't have to pay up for that turbo.

As I stated earlier, even after reflash to stock, error code may have been retained which MASS read and made your friend pay for turbo. As stated earlier, "Your friend could have got his car reflashed to stock ECU and later cleared codes via ELM327 connector. Drive car for 50 kms. There is no chance any technical engineer at MASS can trace it."

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

I disagree based on experience. However, if you choose to believe otherwise I don't want to impose my opinion on you. I posted here since el lobo had declared warranty won't be void which the tuners themselves don't say! They slyly write 90% cars enjoy warranty post remapping, I definitely don't want to be in the 10% and later stare at 4 or 5 figure bills based on the spare part cost.

I have been driving my Fiesta 1.4 TDCi for more than 21,000 Kms after remap by Kiirus. Got rear twist beam, steering rack & front suspension replaced under warranty. No problems.

If remapped properly you won't have any problem. If you give a noob tuner your car, it would surely be devastated. It takes lots of hard work & patience to finely tune a custom remap.

After remap my Fiesta 1.4 TDCi turned into a pocket rocket doing 70 Kmph in 2nd gear. Its more like a second innings after remap and you again fall in love with your car.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

EDIT: Let's not bring in lack of knowledge here, my friend is an automobile engineer from one of the best colleges in bangalore. He surely knew what he was upto and was certainly not tricked by MASS. If you had a stock car and got a replacement, I don't find it proving anything other than 'keep your car stock to enjoy warranty'.

You don't need to be an Automobile Engineer to know things. I know my way out of things if things go wrong.

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

I will get back to you on this after consulting my friend.

Instead you could PM me name of tuner.

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by humyum

I have worked on quite a lot of remaps and automotive components. Have written an article on remap vs tuning box for a very reputed automotive magazine too.

I never doubted your credentials mate,sorry if it appeared so

Sorry, that's not what he said,

He said " Except German manufacturers no other brand ever scans ECU on service. Even if they scan, they will never find anything unusual, since its all compatible. No error code will be thrown.

If by chance you have to get any major part replaced, ECU can always be flashed back to stock and later back to remap"

You've missed his earlier posts. I didn't quote him since I didn't want to get dragged into an argument. Here's what I strongly disagree with (notwithstanding the argument) as we experienced otherwise.

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Got car serviced at 20,000 Kms and no issues reported by Ford Workshop. No warranty issues.

Under warranty parts are changed, remap in no way voids it.

Neither of them admit that after a remap is removed and a stock map is loaded, the earlier remap will be known by the service station.

If so,I'm curious to know how they detected the remap on my friends car. He had the car flashed to stock AND drove a lot more than 50kms. Not being sarcastic here, just hope you give us an insight on what could have made discover it.

I am an automotive engineer too from Coventry University in UK and have worked on all this quite a lot, hence the explanation. There is no lack of knowledge from my side atleast, its just plain facts. I have not remaped by car because I am not into all that and by my explanation of the car being stock and turbo being replaced, all I wanted to tell you is that they don't check the ECU for anything and everything.

I've presented facts too. If my friend was a member here,I would've asked him to post here. They may not check the ECU at all times, then again you're still taking a chance as if they do, you'll be found out. I was all for a remap and had even taken quotes from many for my previous car, after this experience I dropped all such plans.

Anyway, lets agree to disagree.

More than happy to put an end to this.

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Even after reflash maybe error codes are still stored. Then MASS may have read those error codes & would come to conclusion of engine remap resulting in blown turbo.

Your friend could have got his car reflashed to stock ECU and later cleared codes via ELM327 connector.

Appreciate the input man.If you read my post above, i've mentioned clearly the car was flashed to stock a week before we left it at MASS. I'm sure the tuner would have taken care to clear all/any error codes since he also knew about the failed turbo and that we wanted to push for a replacement under warranty. They still found out about the remap AFTER driving more than 50kms, which is what left us stumped.

If remapped properly you won't have any problem. If you give a noob tuner your car, it would surely be devastated. It takes lots of hard work & patience to finely tune a custom remap.

You should search the net on how the 'Check Engine Light' came up numerous times on a remapped Fiesta by one of the more experienced tuners in our country (Pete's) and how he had to run from one tuner to another (and city to city) to get it sorted. Its a fine art, and things can go wrong even when you're in the best hands.

We're not naive to go visit a tuner who opened shop a day ago. This was done by an experienced tuner. I can't say more since that would mean giving out his name.

You don't need to be an Automobile Engineer to know things. I know my way out of things if things go wrong.

Good for you.

I'm going to end this by saying remap or tuning box,do so at your own peril.

[vnabhi]

Insofar as the 'Check Engine Light' error is concerned, it is generic to all Fiestas. My own 1.6 Duratec has been having that symptom for the past 3 winters, and my car is stock. I've mentioned about it in my long term ownership thread a few times.

So I am not sure if the remap had anything to do with that error cropping up in your friend's Fiesta.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Its a RaceDynamics Dual Channel box controlling both fuel & turbo. Used image for representation purpose.

Yes, its connected to MAF sensor, just like I have in my Vento 1.6 TDi. Maybe RD can elaborate about where all their dual channel box gets connected too.

Well, then its manipulating the signals for how much air is passing through the engine probably making the engine believe that there is more air going in, while at the same time the signal for the CRDI fuel rail ( or the injector) is manipulated anyway since its a dual channel box and when both of these manipulations get together, you get more power.

[Red Liner]

Does it make sense to move to a. K'N filter for this engine with an Rd box in the mix? Or does the stock d filter do the trick with the box?