[Turbokick]

Originally Posted by amalji

I've a different opinion about it. On Drivability, this is my order.
Amaze > Micra/Renault > Etios > Figo > Fiat MJD
I was comparing with Figo, and there is a huge improvement in Amaze's driveability. With regards to Micra, I found the gear ratios too short for my liking ( especially with that 68 PS power, the shortness of the gear ratios felt more exaggerated ). Another bad aspect of the car is its unpredictable braking and road manners.

My experience says Micra > Figo = Amaze = Sunny > MJD.
I dont have much experience with Etios to share.
The comparison is purely based on lower end engine response and how quickly the turbo spools. Micra's shorter gear ratios makes it a great city car and not so good on highways. I am sure a Figo owner wont find much difference in terms of driveability (of Amaze)
Trick is simple. Large engines with small turbo (TDCi,DCi,iDtec)
MJD and CRDi 1.4 have larger turbo.

[*]Again, 100 PS vs 68/75 PS doesn't mean more 'pulling', it means the torque is available over a larger rpm range. Doesn't go into 'out of breath' mode soon. Had Honda made the car sluggish in its initial rpms, and then gave all of that torque in one go, people would have told - "Wow, what a pull." But, that doesn't make the car faster, nor does it make it practical in Indian city driving conditions.

When I said performance, I meant acceleration. A car with 100 ps should feel fast (let the power delivery be linear or not)
Amaze has Vento rivalling power/torque : weight. But the performance isnt Vento rivalling.
We cannot even compare topend performance (I havent driven it more than 100-110 kmph) since its topspeed is limited to 140kmph.
Every time I drive a Vento I can feel its much faster than dzire in every aspect. I found Amaze to be more responsive and driveable than Dzire. But nothing like 25 bhp/10 NM separating both in an open road.

Brust acceleration not only makes dzire feel quick but also gives it better ingear acceleration (in 3rd and 4th gear) than Amaze which is a good thing to have on highways. Check the attached photo (at the bottom) as taken from Amaze and Dzire shootout by Autocar.

[*]In simple words, this is what the Amaze does - it reaches 100 kmph faster than any other car in its class. It has the least turbo lag than any other car in its class. It has the flattest torque curve in its class. It's the easiest car to drive around with its ultra light and short clutch and superb turning radius. It does all this with class leading ARAI mileage.

Faster to 100 kmph. But how fast ?
Amaze is less than 1 sec quicker than Dzire to 100. (Overdrive,Autocar,Zigwheels).
Nissan Sunny has numbers as good as Amaze (both outright pace and ingear numbers).
Real world fuel efficiency says Amaze is less than 1 kmpl more efficient than Dzire. (Autocar,Overdrive)
I have already shared the figures earlier just for the sake of reference in the thread.
Driveability I agree is the highlight. Refinement/Topspeed(if it matters to pace loving people) is a compromise.
So its a fair contest.

[*]Regarding high revving the engine, you simply don't need to rev the engine to be superior than other cars in the segment. When you can put other cars to dust by shifting before 4,000 why bother about revving. And turbo charged FGT diesel engines are boring to drive on high revvs. Shifting early is the way to go on these cars.

The ability of revving higher gives that flexibility of pushing the engine better. This what makes the engines like CRDi, MJD delight to drive on open roads. Its not just about numbers always.

+1. Honda has got it spot on as to what Indian Driving condition requires. The only remaining thing they need to correct is the NVH. Being an all aluminium engine, it will be having its limitations in this regard. Maybe, Honda will be able to compensate for that with better engine mount design and noise damping.

All Aluminimum engine is a trade between refinement and fueleconomy for its light weight.

For somebody seeking better driveability and overall performance will opt for Amaze. And those who expect refinement and lower NVH will tilt towards Dzire/Sail and co.

[Balaji31582]

Originally Posted by mitra615

Hi Everyone !
This is my 1st post in the forum.

how about the toyota etios GSP. This version gets you the ABS and airbags too if you need a safety kit within your budget. If you have gone through reviews here, this car's 1.5L engine is supposed to have better drive ability in city and the refreshed model has better interiors with an affordable maintenance. If you are fine with liva, liva sportivo can be a choice, as now this too gets the same engine. Just my humble suggestion, Probably you might not like it at first sight, but take a test drive before ignoring a car, it might be the one what you might be looking for!

[amalji]

Originally Posted by mitra615

Lastly, the waiting period of Amaze is around 2 ½ months- a lot of time to wait for your new car to arrive, but is the wait worth it?
Thanks

Go for the Amaze. It's worth it.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

My experience says Micra > Figo = Amaze = Sunny > MJD.
I dont have much experience with Etios to share.
The comparison is purely based on lower end engine response and how quickly the turbo spools.
Micra's shorter gear ratios makes it a great city car and not so good on highways.

Having a 4th gear short like a 3rd and then being able to move around in 4th does no good to driveability. And this is exactly what I felt about Micra. The gears were too short. Amaze brings in drivability without compromising on performance on the open roads.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

I am sure a Figo owner wont find much difference in terms of driveability (of Amaze)
Trick is simple. Large engines with small turbo (TDCi,DCi,iDtec)
MJD and CRDi 1.4 have larger turbo.

After driving the Figo for a few 100 kms, the Etios always feels like bliss for me in terms of driveability and peppiness. The Amaze is even better than the Etios in terms of drivability and hence it's any day better than the Figo. Figo/Fiesta classic feels sluggish especially on inclines and I have driven it on almost all kinds of terrain.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

When I said performance, I meant acceleration. A car with 100 ps should feel fast (let the power delivery be linear or not)
Amaze has Vento rivalling power/torque : weight. But the performance isnt Vento rivalling.
Every time I drive a Vento I can feel its much faster than dzire in every aspect. I found Amaze to be more responsive and driveable than Dzire. But nothing like 25 bhp/10 NM separating both in an open road.

Wrong.
'Feeling' of fast comes from acceleration or 'the pull'
'Pull' comes from 'Torque per ton' at the rpm it's driven at, not 'PS per ton'

Torque per ton of Swift - 181
Torque per ton of Amaze - 189
Torque per ton of Vento - 205

As can be seen Torque per ton of the Vento is 13.26% higher than that of the Swift,
whereas
that of the Amaze is just 4.41% higher than that of the Swift. In addition, Swift remains sluggish for the initial rpms, and then there is a sudden surge of the torque which further exaggerates the 'pull' feeling.

And 8Nm difference in torque per ton will not be easily 'felt'. I have driven a Liva tuned to give 180 Nm instead of 170 and the difference in 'feel' is marginal.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

We cannot even compare topend performance (I havent driven it more than 100-110 kmph) since its topspeed is limited to 140kmph.

It doesn't max out. It's just that Honda limits it to that speed. Maybe, they consider it best to be driven within 140 kmph. So, if someone is very specific to go above 140 kmph, they can look for other options. But, if someone wants to drive faster on the city, and highways with minimum effort in 99% of the cases, Amaze is the best option.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Faster to 100 kmph. But how fast ?
Amaze is less than 1 sec quicker than Dzire to 100. (Overdrive,Autocar,Zigwheels).

I don't believe in these 0-100 kmph numbers of this magazines for the simple reason that a person need to understand the strength/weakness of the car before being able to extract the most out of a car. I've seen 12.5 secs on Amaze and 14.5 secs on Dzire on another comparison. So, it varies depending on who drives it.
With X speed to Y speed on Z gear timings, it depends on each car's tuning and gear ratio design as to which gear will give it the best peppiness on a particular speed range. So, having X,Y and Z constant and then compare it between multiple models can never give a fair idea.
Now, we'll forget all of that and just believe what they have wrote.

• 1 sec is a indeed a considerable amount of variance when you compare 0-100 kmph timing especially on a Diesel.
• Even the Autocar agreed that in gear acceleration as well as 0-100 burst is better for the Amaze.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Nissan Sunny has numbers as good as Amaze (both outright pace and ingear numbers).
Real world fuel efficiency says Amaze is less than 1 kmpl more efficient than Dzire. (Autocar,Overdrive)
I have already shared the figures earlier just for the sake of reference in the thread.

The thing is we are pulling out cars from the next segment with VGT to even get a fair comparison with the Amaze. That in itself is the best compliment for Amaze.
The segment never got a combination of drivability and best in class power. This is exactly what Amaze brings to the forte.

And regarding mileage is not how much it exceeds the competition. But, it's that inspite of giving class leading PS and Torque, it still provides the class leading mileage.
Regarding 1 kmpl difference, even that contributes to a difference in 20k after covering 1 lakh kms.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Driveability I agree is the highlight. Refinement/Topspeed(if it matters to pace loving people) is a compromise.
So its a fair contest.

For me,
Amaze accelerates better on the highways &
It accelerates better on the city
140 kmph limit is something Honda has done in the best interest of the vehicle. I'm not a fan of this limit either.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

The ability of revving higher gives that flexibility of pushing the engine better. This what makes the engines like CRDi, MJD delight to drive on open roads. Its not just about numbers always.

Yes, if you compare with a similar powered engine. No, if one engine has a way superior torque curve. for eg:-, I would prefer a Lancer Petrol rev limited at 4,000 rpms any day than a Dzire Petrol rev limited at 6,000 for the simple reason that the torque curve of Lancer is one class above that of the Dzire. It's a similar comparison with the Amaze. When Amaze is faster than the Dzire without breaking a sweat ( ie, high revving it ), why would we still be very particular about revving it. Diesels with FGT are not meant to be revved. It would perform better if you shift early. Revving it beyond 4k is pointless. You can just hear the engine running at higher rpm. No other use in doing that.

Originally Posted by Balaji31582

how about the toyota etios GSP. This version gets you the ABS and airbags too if you need a safety kit within your budget. If you have gone through reviews here, this car's 1.5L engine is supposed to have better drive ability in city and the refreshed model has better interiors with an affordable maintenance. If you are fine with liva, liva sportivo can be a choice, as now this too gets the same engine. Just my humble suggestion, Probably you might not like it at first sight, but take a test drive before ignoring a car, it might be the one what you might be looking for!

The Etios Petrol is indeed a very good buy with that fantastic torquey engine and the practicality. But, Etios caters to a different breed of customers. It's about function over form.

[RavenAvi]

I went to get my Pegasus serviced on the 8th, and requested for a drop to my hotel.

Surprise, surprise! The designated driver walked over to a TD car, which was a Majestic Blue Amaze VX i-DTEC! Not only that, he put the keys in the ignition and asked me if I would like to drive, and it would be sort of like a TD. The guards happily opened the gates, and I drove on the expressway and through the city roads to my hotel, for a distance of around 12 kms.

My common man impressions:-

The Amaze Diesel drove like a dream. Like it has been said before, the power delivery is very linear and it feels like one is driving a finely-tuned and refined petrol. The only difference I could make is the very faint but slightly audible diesel clatter filtering into the cabin. I must say the Amaze has excellent road manners and despite the puny stock tyres, grips the tarmac rather well. But the tyres are pretty noisy themselves. The steering is pretty light and I didn't notice any weighing up at higher speeds, unlike my Pegasus whose steering gets heavier at higher speeds. It could be a concern for those who are not accustomed to the light steering for their cars.
Biggest disappointment was in the driving seat. While the driving, handling and road manners were excellent, the scene around me was the exact replica of the Brio - same ODO, same plastics quality, same seats. For a premium-ish diesel sedan (the Amaze VX i-DTEC is 9L OTR over here), it doesn't feel like a car which should command such a price, specially when interior quality is concerned. But then, the older DZire which was an age older, sold well despite the same shortcomings, so the Amaze doing well in monthly sales is no surprise.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post3117812

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Turbokick

When I said performance, I meant acceleration. A car with 100 ps should feel fast (let the power delivery be linear or not)
Amaze has Vento rivalling power/torque : weight. But the performance isnt Vento rivalling.
We cannot even compare topend performance (I havent driven it more than 100-110 kmph) since its topspeed is limited to 140kmph.
Every time I drive a Vento I can feel its much faster than dzire in every aspect. I found Amaze to be more responsive and driveable than Dzire. But nothing like 25 bhp/10 NM separating both in an open road.

Brust acceleration not only makes dzire feel quick but also gives it better ingear acceleration (in 3rd and 4th gear) than Amaze which is a good thing to have on highways. Check the attached photo (at the bottom) as taken from Amaze and Dzire shootout by Autocar.



Faster to 100 kmph. But how fast ?
Amaze is less than 1 sec quicker than Dzire to 100. (Overdrive,Autocar,Zigwheels).
Nissan Sunny has numbers as good as Amaze (both outright pace and ingear numbers).
Real world fuel efficiency says Amaze is less than 1 kmpl more efficient than Dzire. (Autocar,Overdrive)
I have already shared the figures earlier just for the sake of reference in the thread.
Driveability I agree is the highlight. Refinement/Topspeed(if it matters to pace loving people) is a compromise.
So its a fair contest.

You are correct, i test drove the Amaze and the feeling of quickness isn't there, the performance doesn't feel like 200NM or 100PS.

In real world performance where in gear acceleration is important for overtaking Amaze actually trails behind the Dzire if we go by ACI figures.
In Gear -- Amaze -- Dzire
20 to 80 (3rd) -- 13.53 -- 11.80
40 to 100 (4th) -- 15.09 -- 13.71

Top speed is a compromise.. it doesn't matter if Amaze has got 100PS and 200NM it will eventually get overtaken by smaller hatches like AltoK10, AStar etc on a fourlane and they're not really far off the 0 to 100 figures either!

[Turbokick]

Originally Posted by amalji

Having a 4th gear short like a 3rd and then being able to move around in 4th does no good to driveability. And this is exactly what I felt about Micra. The gears were too short. Amaze brings in drivability without compromising on performance on the open roads.

My comparison was only based on City driveability. Micra is a city car and hence its state of tune.

After driving the Figo for a few 100 kms, the Etios always feels like bliss for me in terms of driveability and peppiness. The Amaze is even better than the Etios in terms of drivability and hence it's any day better than the Figo. Figo/Fiesta classic feels sluggish especially on inclines and I have driven it on almost all kinds of terrain.

Maybe our opinion is varying in this matter. But in terms of linearity Figo and Amaze are similar in terms of power delivery is what I felt. Experts can throw some light on this matter!

Wrong.
'Feeling' of fast comes from acceleration or 'the pull'
'Pull' comes from 'Torque per ton' at the rpm it's driven at, not 'PS per ton'

So in that case an equivalent diesel car should always 'feel' faster than a petrol.
Amaze due its higher torque should feel faster than Honda City, but thats not the case.
Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity in simple terms. A car with greater acceleration power will always feel fast.
Torque defines the strength and Horse power defines the sprinting ability.

Torque per ton of Swift - 181
Torque per ton of Amaze - 189
Torque per ton of Vento - 205

As can be seen Torque per ton of the Vento is 13.26% higher than that of the Swift,
whereas
that of the Amaze is just 4.41% higher than that of the Swift. In addition, Swift remains sluggish for the initial rpms, and then there is a sudden surge of the torque which further exaggerates the 'pull' feeling.
And 8Nm difference in torque per ton will not be easily 'felt'. I have driven a Liva tuned to give 180 Nm instead of 170 and the difference in 'feel' is marginal.

So you somewhat agreeing to the point that Amaze doesnt have the punch similar to Vento inspite of similar power/torque : weight ratio

Thats what I mentioned in my post. Outright performance isnt too far ahead of Dzire.

It doesn't max out. It's just that Honda limits it to that speed. Maybe, they consider it best to be driven within 140 kmph. So, if someone is very specific to go above 140 kmph, they can look for other options. But, if someone wants to drive faster on the city, and highways with minimum effort in 99% of the cases, Amaze is the best option.

I don't believe in these 0-100 kmph numbers of this magazines for the simple reason that a person need to understand the strength/weakness of the car before being able to extract the most out of a car. I've seen 12.5 secs on Amaze and 14.5 secs on Dzire on another comparison. So, it varies depending on who drives it.
With X speed to Y speed on Z gear timings, it depends on each car's tuning and gear ratio design as to which gear will give it the best peppiness on a particular speed range. So, having X,Y and Z constant and then compare it between multiple models can never give a fair idea.

There can always be a reference point to follow. And obviously numbers from different authors cannot be compared since the test conditions/drivers/pattern of driving varies.
But when we compare numbers from a single author conditions will remain fairly similar.
Test figures are always calculated after multiple trials and they can be refered for comparison.

I would have loved to see TeamBHP reviews carrying performance figures.

Now, we'll forget all of that and just believe what they have wrote. [*]1 sec is a indeed a considerable amount of variance when you compare 0-100 kmph timing especially on a Diesel.

- Dzire is quicker to 80 as per ACI.
- At 100 kmph Amaze is just 0.5 secs quicker.(as per ACI)
- Overdrive says its 0.89 secs difference to 100.

1 second is a big difference for engines with similar specifications.
Amaze's specifications suggests it should be much quicker (which it is not)

[*]Even the Autocar agreed that in gear acceleration as well as 0-100 burst is better for the Amaze.

Autocar numbers for in gear acceleration I have already mentioned.

The thing is we are pulling out cars from the next segment with VGT to even get a fair comparison with the Amaze. That in itself is the best compliment for Amaze.

Sunny may belong to a class higher but does have specifications inferior to Amaze. Its an old 8 valve engine as well. Performance figures dont reflect that.

The segment never got a combination of drivability and best in class power. This is exactly what Amaze brings to the forte.

Honda has managed to provide bigger and more powerful engine in its class.

And regarding mileage is not how much it exceeds the competition. But, it's that inspite of giving class leading PS and Torque, it still provides the class leading mileage.
Regarding 1 kmpl difference, even that contributes to a difference in 20k after covering 1 lakh kms.

I have already mentioned the trade that an Aluminum engine does between efficiency and refinement.

Yes, if you compare with a similar powered engine. No, if one engine has a way superior torque curve. for eg:-, I would prefer a Lancer Petrol rev limited at 4,000 rpms any day than a Dzire Petrol rev limited at 6,000 for the simple reason that the torque curve of Lancer is one class above that of the Dzire. It's a similar comparison with the Amaze. When Amaze is faster than the Dzire without breaking a sweat ( ie, high revving it ), why would we still be very particular about revving it.

By this comparison even OHC vtec is lesser preferable to Lancer !
But vtec loves being pushed because its ability to rev higher inspite of lesser torque.

May point was idtec's ability as a whole and not just by comparing it with DDiS. Amaze has the capacity advantage here.

Diesels with FGT are not meant to be revved. It would perform better if you shift early. Revving it beyond 4k is pointless. You can just hear the engine running at higher rpm. No other use in doing that.

At 3000 rpm you arenot revving the engine too high. Amaze doesnt feel very good being pushed beyond that.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Turbokick

My comparison was only based on City driveability. Micra is a city car and hence its state of tune.

State of tune and gear ratios are 2 different things. You push in a gear between 3rd and 4th and call the 4th gear as 5th. That doesn't increase driveability any way. It just means that you are in the 4th gear when you are actually shifting to 5th!

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Maybe our opinion is varying in this matter. But in terms of linearity Figo and Amaze are similar in terms of power delivery is what I felt. Experts can throw some light on this matter!

Yes, the Figo is linear but it's linear with an inferior torque/ton which makes it sluggish even when that linearity is there.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

So in that case an equivalent diesel car should always 'feel' faster than a petrol.
Amaze due its higher torque should feel faster than Honda City, but thats not the case.

Yes, for sure if you don't revv the petrol engine. High revving ability ( without losing out on torque ) is what makes a Petrol engine faster than a Diesel. You shift around 3000 rpms and the diesel will just blow the Honda City Petrol due to its superior torque in that rpm range.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity in simple terms. A car with greater acceleration power will always feel fast.
Torque defines the strength and Horse power defines the sprinting ability.

Torque is what translates into acceleration. A flat torque curve gives constant acceleration while a spiky torque curve gives heavy acceleration at a short range of rpm while being sluggish in the rest of the rpms. Amaze accelerates decently right from the word go, and continues that character over a long range. The DDiS remains sluggish in its initial rpms and then suddenly surges ahead post 1800.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

So you somewhat agreeing to the point that Amaze doesnt have the punch similar to Vento inspite of similar power/torque : weight ratio

I'm saying it again. The 'feeling' of pull and 'being fast' are 2 different things. You spread the torque curve over, and you can make the car high performing without the 'pull factor'
The Swift's torque curve is too spiky, and that's the reason that you feel that huge pull. But, in reality that spike comes after too much time being in the sluggish territory.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

There can always be a reference point to follow. And obviously numbers from different authors cannot be compared since the test conditions/drivers/pattern of driving varies.
But when we compare numbers from a single author conditions will remain fairly similar.
Test figures are always calculated after multiple trials and they can be refered for comparison.

As explained in my previous post, it's not necessarily true for the simple reason that a car accelerating from x to y on a particular gear depends on the gear ratios, and torque curve. Assuming that the 2nd gear gear ratio of both the cars are the same is in itself a mistake.

If you ask a person to drive a car from 20 kmph to 40 kmph in whichever gear he wants on both these cars and then ensure that it accelerates fast, that makes sense. But, not on fixed gear which is preset by the reviewer. That means the reviewer is just using his previous experience with the old car to set expectations.
And 20 to 80 kmph on the same gear is too tall and doesn't make sense even for quick over taking.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

I would have loved to see TeamBHP reviews carrying performance figures.

I'm glad team-bhp doesn't have this because, it doesn't really make sense. If there is a test like 0-x x-y and the driver is allowed to chose whichever gear he wants to ensure the fastest acceleration, that makes sense because here, the gear ratios doesn't come into effect.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

- Dzire is quicker to 80 as per ACI.
- At 100 kmph Amaze is just 0.5 secs quicker.(as per ACI)
- Overdrive says its 0.89 secs difference to 100.

This doesn't make sense at all for me. quicker to 80 and then getting faster ? In fact, the lower turbo lag should have helped Amaze in the initial 0-80. There is really something wrong with the way, ACI conducts their tests.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

1 second is a big difference for engines with similar specifications.
Amaze's specifications suggests it should be much quicker (which it is not)

Yes, when it's a Petrol engine. No, when it's Diesel engine because on a Petrol, you revv it hard and being able to make the higher rpms makes a lot of difference. On a diesel, the mid end is what matters really. Even if you shift early, you won't get affected badly, because you fall right into the peak torque range which is significantly higher than the other areas of the torque curve ( unlike in the case of a Petrol )

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Sunny may belong to a class higher but does have specifications inferior to Amaze. Its an old 8 valve engine as well. Performance figures dont reflect that.

It uses VGT and that makes a lot of difference than the number of valves used. It's torque per ton ratio is very similar to that of the Amaze.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

By this comparison even OHC vtec is lesser preferable to Lancer !
But vtec loves being pushed because its ability to rev higher inspite of lesser torque.

Wrong. OHC Vtec is a much better engine than the Dzire Petrol. And its torque curve is much more superior.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

May point was idtec's ability as a whole and not just by comparing it with DDiS. Amaze has the capacity advantage here.

A higher capacity engine always aide's driveability. It also brings down the mileage in most cases. The beauty of the Honda design is in them being able to give economy, performance and driveability all in one package. How they achieved it doesn't matter at all. And it's perceived that the lower the torque/cc of the engine, the higher the chances for the engine to last longer. By plonking a bigger engine, they are not over stressing the engine as well.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

At 3000 rpm you arenot revving the engine too high. Amaze doesnt feel very good being pushed beyond that.

> 3,000 rpms is something which is needed in just 1% of the life time of the car especially for a Diesel engine. I'm glad, Honda concentrated on the lower and mid rpm range rather than on non-practical high rpms.

[DieselLover]

Took a test drive of amaze yesterday along with a friend who is looking for an entry level sedan. I drive an old generation swift diesel and the amaze just didn't feel very superior in outright performance. It is slightly faster but not fast enough as the rated power figures suggest. My friend will go for it as he drives a wagon r and felt a huge difference. but I was disappointed (may be expecting too much after seeing 100bhp specs) and will not consider it for an upgrade.

[Turbokick]

Originally Posted by amalji

State of tune and gear ratios are 2 different things. You push in a gear between 3rd and 4th and call the 4th gear as 5th. That doesn't increase driveability any way. It just means that you are in the 4th gear when you are actually shifting to 5th!

When I said state of tune I meant gear ratios actually. Agreed to what you said.

Yes, the Figo is linear but it's linear with an inferior torque/ton which makes it sluggish even when that linearity is there.

Exactly. It maynot have that punch but ease of driving in lower driving speeds isnt very different.

Yes, for sure if you don't revv the petrol engine. High revving ability ( without losing out on torque ) is what makes a Petrol engine faster than a Diesel. You shift around 3000 rpms and the diesel will just blow the Honda City Petrol due to its superior torque in that rpm range.

You cannot compare Petrol and Diesels in terms of RPM. Petrols rev much quicker and higher than Diesels. For equal throttle Petrol engine will revs higher. Push both the cars and City clearly feels faster. Thats what I said.

Torque is what translates into acceleration. A flat torque curve gives constant acceleration while a spiky torque curve gives heavy acceleration at a short range of rpm while being sluggish in the rest of the rpms. Amaze accelerates decently right from the word go, and continues that character over a long range. The DDiS remains sluggish in its initial rpms and then suddenly surges ahead post 1800.

Agreed. But the talk is not in reference to DDiS only. Amaze's performance is decent. Extra horses doesnt really make that standout difference.

As explained in my previous post, it's not necessarily true for the simple reason that a car accelerating from x to y on a particular gear depends on the gear ratios, and torque curve. Assuming that the 2nd gear gear ratio of both the cars are the same is in itself a mistake.

If you ask a person to drive a car from 20 kmph to 40 kmph in whichever gear he wants on both these cars and then ensure that it accelerates fast, that makes sense. But, not on fixed gear which is preset by the reviewer. That means the reviewer is just using his previous experience with the old car to set expectations.

For a standardised comparison we need to follow certain pattern. Thats why these outright numbers and ingear figures.

And 20 to 80 kmph on the same gear is too tall and doesn't make sense even for quick over taking.

Correct. One is not supposed to pull from 20 to 80 in 3rd gear. But the figure reflects engine's behaviour as a whole or even gear ratio. Dzire's shorter ratio in initial gears makes it quicker.
One cannot judge that from specifications.

I'm glad team-bhp doesn't have this because, it doesn't really make sense. If there is a test like 0-x x-y and the driver is allowed to chose whichever gear he wants to ensure the fastest acceleration, that makes sense because here, the gear ratios doesn't come into effect.

Engine's flexibility cannot be judged if the driver chooses lower gears to ensure better acceleration. You keep a gear down in cars with poor lower end torque and drive. Hence is the reference figures.

This doesn't make sense at all for me. quicker to 80 and then getting faster ? In fact, the lower turbo lag should have helped Amaze in the initial 0-80. There is really something wrong with the way, ACI conducts their tests.

In a drag race or outright performance test, turbolag wont make much difference if you keep the rpm above the lag period from the word go.
Amaze suffered because it cannot be revved beyond 2000rpm in idle and hence the launch time got affected.

Yes, when it's a Petrol engine. No, when it's Diesel engine because on a Petrol, you revv it hard and being able to make the higher rpms makes a lot of difference. On a diesel, the mid end is what matters really. Even if you shift early, you won't get affected badly, because you fall right into the peak torque range which is significantly higher than the other areas of the torque curve ( unlike in the case of a Petrol )

At 3000-3500 rpm you arenot over revving in a diesel.

It uses VGT and that makes a lot of difference than the number of valves used. It's torque per ton ratio is very similar to that of the Amaze.

VGT just aids the way the fins(or blades) of turbo work. Its fixed in FGT and in VGT,the angle of those blades change with rpm to have control over air flow. It aids in extracting some power from same engine or even to generate better lower end power when turbo spools at lower rpm(theoritically)
Difference can be compared if same engine with different GT is compared and not with two different engines. At the end of the days specifications matter.

Wrong. OHC Vtec is a much better engine than the Dzire Petrol. And its torque curve is much more superior.

My comparison was Lancer vs Petrol

A higher capacity engine always aide's driveability. It also brings down the mileage in most cases. The beauty of the Honda design is in them being able to give economy, performance and driveability all in one package. How they achieved it doesn't matter at all. And it's perceived that the lower the torque/cc of the engine, the higher the chances for the engine to last longer. By plonking a bigger engine, they are not over stressing the engine as well.

DDiS has proved to be as reliable and long lasting as engines with lower torque/cc. Modern day engines are quite reliable

> 3,000 rpms is something which is needed in just 1% of the life time of the car especially for a Diesel engine. I'm glad, Honda concentrated on the lower and mid rpm range rather than on non-practical high rpms.

On open highways I constantly push rpm beyond 3000 and its fun. Other MJD owners can relate here.
Practicality is with Amaze. But DDiS is fun overall.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Exactly. It maynot have that punch but ease of driving in lower driving speeds isnt very different.

The low end punch does aid ease of drive. You need to make that sudden overtaking in city or on ghats, the low end punch does matter. And it aides ease of drive.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

You cannot compare Petrol and Diesels in terms of RPM. Petrols rev much quicker and higher than Diesels. For equal throttle Petrol engine will revs higher. Push both the cars and City clearly feels faster. Thats what I said.

Again, depends on the rpm on which the car is at. If the Diesel is on its torque range, the iDtec or any other car in that range will feel 'faster'. It's the ability of the Petrol car to revv beyond what Diesel engines can and that too without loosing out on too much of torque is what makes the Petrol engine faster. If you shift at 3,000 the iDtec will definitely feel faster than an equivalent Petrol. The fastest rpm climb has to be when the Diesel is on its turbo range. But, it's not a fair comparison. With the direct injection turbo charged Petrol engines, the comparison becomes more fair, and the Petrol will blow away the Diesels.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Agreed. But the talk is not in reference to DDiS only. Amaze's performance is decent. Extra horses doesnt really make that standout difference.

As said time and again, the horses won't make the 'pull' stand out on a Diesel FGT. But, it will on a Petrol. If what you want to measure is the feeling of pull on a Diesel, look for torque figures, and not for PS figures. PS just helps get a flatter torque curve. But, all that fun is in the low and mid rpm range.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

For a standardised comparison we need to follow certain pattern. Thats why these outright numbers and ingear figures.

As explained before, it's not standardized for the simple reason that the gearing are not the same ( because gear ratios are different )

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Correct. One is not supposed to pull from 20 to 80 in 3rd gear. But the figure reflects engine's behaviour as a whole or even gear ratio. Dzire's shorter ratio in initial gears makes it quicker.
One cannot judge that from specifications.

It will give different figures if you test it 20-40, 30-50 20-50, 30-60. One car might have the advantage over the other based on what is its gear ratio. Doesn't in any way affect the overall performance of the engine on real world driving conditions.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Engine's flexibility cannot be judged if the driver chooses lower gears to ensure better acceleration. You keep a gear down in cars with poor lower end torque and drive. Hence is the reference figures.

Again, as I said before, everything depends on the gear ratios. I don't see any reference as to whether they have taken this into consideration. Without this, the comparison is not fair.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

In a drag race or outright performance test, turbolag wont make much difference if you keep the rpm above the lag period from the word go.
Amaze suffered because it cannot be revved beyond 2000rpm in idle and hence the launch time got affected.

If that's the case, then again, the test figures doesn't give any real idea about real world performance because pumping the rpm and getting the engine rolling is not something a regular driver does.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

At 3000-3500 rpm you arenot over revving in a diesel.

On a Petrol engine, when you do that you get value for your effort. On a Diesel, you are wasting fuel because the torque fun is far below that rpm range.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

VGT just aids the way the fins(or blades) of turbo work. Its fixed in FGT and in VGT,the angle of those blades change with rpm to have control over air flow. It aids in extracting some power from same engine or even to generate better lower end power when turbo spools at lower rpm(theoritically)
Difference can be compared if same engine with different GT is compared and not with two different engines. At the end of the days specifications matter.

And that's why I told that the torque per ton of Sunny is very similar to that of the Amaze.
And regarding what kind of difference the VGT brings in
1.4 D-4D increases its torque from 170 Nm ( 1800 - 2400 rpms ) to 205 Nm ( 1800 - 2800 rpms ) and a PS increase from 68 PS to 90 PS
MJD increases its torque from 190 Nm to 200 Nm and a PS increase from 75 PS to 90 PS by just changing the turbo

Originally Posted by Turbokick

My comparison was Lancer vs Petrol

My answer was to that. My point was that I compared the Dzire Petrol with the Lancer Petrol to show the inferiority of torque curve of the Dzire. Honda vtec is not a fair comparison because it stays very close to the torque curve of Lancer over its entire rpm range.

Originally Posted by Turbokick

DDiS has proved to be as reliable and long lasting as engines with lower torque/cc. Modern day engines are quite reliable

DDiS is ofcourse reliable and long lasting. But, from the experience of my friends who uses both the DDiS and Renault, the Renault's engine ( Logan ) is more reliable and hassle free than the DDiS when you run upwards of 2 Lakhs.

[dZired]

Went with a friend to Satnam Honda, Jaipur and took a TD of the Amaze. My friend currently owns a Hyundai i10 and is looking for an upgrade. He has extensively driven my swift DZire but, like many others, he hates its oddball design and hence I suggested him to go and have a look at the new offering from Honda. I had seen the amaze in flesh couple of days back and was blown away by its proportionate design. As we entered in the showroom and my friend saw the amaze, he refused to agree that it was a sub 4-metre car. Now since his monthly mileage wont exceed 700 kms, we were on a lookout for the amaze petrol.

We went to a SA and asked him to show us a petrol amaze. We were told to sit down and were served tea. Being a "free day" (sunday), there were a lot of inquiries coming up for the amaze and hence all SA were quite busy. We waited for 20 mins but no one came to attend us. We understood that the dealer was a bit too flooded with inquiries and hence decided to come on any other day. Just when we were about to leave, a SA came and took us to a petrol TD vehicle. My friend was already sold after seeing the amaze's proportionate design. But things were about to change. As soon as he sat in the driver's seat, expressions changed, and he straight away started comparing the dashboard to the DZire's cabin. And yes, this is one part where the DZire easily beats its Honda counterpart. I may emphasize here that its not the quality of plastics used, but the layout of Amaze's cabin looks like it is from a lower segment.

Well we both took the TD one by one and were quite happy with the engine's linear response and refinement. The clutch is very light and accompanied with sleek gearshifts and light steering, the amaze is a great car for city driving. But there was a catch here too. Once the speedo crosses 100 kmph mark, the car starts behaving abruptly. The front end becomes a bit too light and I was missing the planted feeling of my DZire. The light steering becomes much more lighter and hence it does not provide enough confidence to the driver.

But if we keep these two points aside, Amaze is surely a step ahead for Honda and will indeed bring great numbers for the stable.

As for my friend, he wasn't quite impressed with the Amaze and hence has not yet booked any car.

[saket77]

Originally Posted by dZired

W As soon as he sat in the driver's seat, expressions changed, and he straight away started comparing the dashboard to the DZire's cabin. And yes, this is one part where the DZire easily beats its Honda counterpart. I may emphasize here that its not the quality of plastics used, but the layout of Amaze's cabin looks like it is from a lower segment.

+1. Couldn't agree more. Last weekend, I had an opportunity to look into a relative's brand new Amaze. They opted for a Black. But sadly the car, this is strictly my opinion, does not feels premium class. The dashboard is too basic for this car. What can be a logical reason is that the Amaze does not costs a bomb to own and is priced relatively cheaper than many in the class (I am not sure, but think so) and I think it may not be fair to expect too much decoration & trims. But frankly and flatly out, the interiors felt a bit too basic for a car that looks like a proper sedan.
Also, as the previous post says, its not the plastic quality, that is far above acceptable, its just the layout and design.

[sgiitk]

One has to commend Honda for the 'near zero turbo lag' design. At the moment it is a Honeywell FGT so expect the new City to get a VGT with 120+ horses. Also, I expect that as they gain confidence the 2000rpm limit at static will be removed or upped, and even the upper rev limit may be relaxed, to say 4500rpm! I think these will be possible by an ECU reflash in the older cars as well.

[INNOVATOR]

Originally Posted by Balaji31582

how about the toyota etios GSP. This version gets you the ABS and airbags too if you need a safety kit within your budget. If you have gone through reviews here, this car's 1.5L engine is supposed to have better drive ability in city and the refreshed model has better interiors with an affordable maintenance. If you are fine with liva, liva sportivo can be a choice, as now this too gets the same engine. Just my humble suggestion, Probably you might not like it at first sight, but take a test drive before ignoring a car, it might be the one what you might be looking for!

Please check the clutch on the eitos/liva - you would never need to go to a gym to tone your left calf muscle. It seriously is that hard. This was the single deal breaker for me Toyota- after the vista I would never take a chance with the clutch.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by INNOVATOR

Please check the clutch on the eitos/liva - you would never need to go to a gym to tone your left calf muscle. It seriously is that hard. This was the single deal breaker for me Toyota- after the vista I would never take a chance with the clutch.

He mentioned about Etios petrol. The clutch of Etios petrol is one of the lightest you would find on a car in that segment that too with very short travel.
With the diesel Etios, yes as you said , it has helped me tone my calf muscles. :-P

Originally Posted by Sankar

Top speed is a compromise.. it doesn't matter if Amaze has got 100PS and 200NM it will eventually get overtaken by smaller hatches like AltoK10, AStar etc on a fourlane

This is a concern for me and even consider that as a deal breaker, if I select a car today. The 140 kmph limit. Not that I always drive at that speed. But, to do an overtaking, I might have to get to 150-160 and then come back to 140 kmph cruising speed.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

One has to commend Honda for the 'near zero turbo lag' design. At the moment it is a Honeywell FGT so expect the new City to get a VGT with 120+ horses. Also, I expect that as they gain confidence the 2000rpm limit at static will be removed or upped, and even the upper rev limit may be relaxed, to say 4500rpm! I think these will be possible by an ECU reflash in the older cars as well.

That would be great.