Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q!

navin · 15th July 2005, 22:35

Front components: choose between JBL and Alpine. I went for Alpine. JBL is good too it is just different tastes. JBL is a bit brighter than Alpine.

dont know about if the swift can fit triax 6x9 in the rear deck but you would be quite happy with coax 6" in the rear door.

get teh 340. the 540 is more expensive. I assume they will sound the same with the 340 being the 540's lower power brother.

Sam, Does JBL make a 8" tube. I dont think the Swift can take a bigger tube. If JBL does not make a 8" tube listen to the Blaupunkt 8" tube.

Aseem and Moderators, I appologise for all the digressions and liberties taken. I guess I was just showing off. Sorry about this.

Vivekphadnis · 15th July 2005, 23:00

Aseem, it is highly improbable that components are being sold without crossovers. Feeding wrong frequency signals will destroy a driver. When they are selling a woofer and tweeter together, how can they expect the user to find his own crossovers.
As for the bass tube, depends on how much you want to spend. Going in for a good brand for the mids and highs makes sense. But distortion is not very audible in low frequencies. So the Sony might be a cheaper option. I am planning to experiment with Dainty/Bolton sub drivers. Navin, Sam, you guys know these drivers.

navin · 15th July 2005, 23:11

Bolton yes, Dainty no.

Vivek, Since you are open to DIY I would even suggest taking a Pio 304F into a 1 cu. ft. aperiodic box. If you were in Mumbai I could have loaned you a couple of 302F built the same way.

Vivekphadnis · 15th July 2005, 23:25

I am just checking out the Pio 304F. Let me see. What I need is a good sub amp circuit and a layout.
By the way, I am also planning to sell my eight-month old Alto and get a bigger car. The Alto is just not for massive subs.

aseem · 16th July 2005, 00:19

Guys the JBL 340 co-axials will cost approximately what???

Components in the front from JBL have what number, and approximate price???

Yes the Sony components for 4.5k come without corssover. Check it out at Sony India site and see for yourself.

Sam Kapasi · 16th July 2005, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by aseem

Guys the JBL 340 co-axials will cost approximately what???

Components in the front from JBL have what number, and approximate price???

Yes the Sony components for 4.5k come without corssover. Check it out at Sony India site and see for yourself.

JBL triaxial 6" - GTO636e - Price Rs 3990/- incl VAT
JBL 6" Components GTO606Ce - Price Rs 6000/- incl VAT

Yes the sony components without crossovers are all rubbish

Navin: JBL Doesnt make an 8" tube.
Vivek: DAINTY??? DAINTY?????? I can understand a speaker called strong, robust etc etc, DAINTY??

navin · 16th July 2005, 11:29

aseem, the 340 is the alpine amp not the JBL speaker. you had asked for an amp that might perform better than the sony. sorry i was not more specific. chalk it to my senile mind.

navin · 16th July 2005, 11:48

sam, this is really off topic but i feel vivek might be interested...
I find that many component speakers offer good quality drivers backed up by poor XO design. I understand cost contraints in the commercial market but what if go around this.

Many years ago (in the 80s) I had taken some Polk drivers (car audio stuff) and squeezed what most listenerd felt was better performance by mesing with the XO. You think we can do this with JBL. The reason I ask this is because I feel JBLs drivers are very good (I have used the 2245 and 2235 as well as L82T in my past) but a bit too agressive (forward).

Agreed this is what most people expect out of JBL. If JBL made speakers that sounded like Quad Electrostatics they'd disappoint many. I have been looking at many locally available drivers and what i find is:
1. not suited for the car enviroment (poor surrounds, not sealed well, etc...)
2. In consistent availability
3. no specs sheets (granted spec sheets are not the holy grail but they are a good starting point). For example if you dont know the Fs for tweeters you can damage them.

If had known you before i did my RS system I would have explaored this then. My proposal.
1. I will purchase 4 16cm speakers from JBL.
2. If JBL can provide me reasonably accurate specs for the speakers I will offer all the results of my tinkering to JBL for no consideration whatsoever (financial or whatever not even credit) as long as JBL offers the same to it's customers under the same terms. Sort of taking GPL into the product world.

Sam Kapasi · 16th July 2005, 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

sam, this is really off topic but i feel vivek might be interested...

(I have used the 2245 and 2235 as well as L82T in my past) but a bit too agressive (forward).

My proposal.
1. I will purchase 4 16cm speakers from JBL.
2. If JBL can provide me reasonably accurate specs for the speakers I will offer all the results of my tinkering to JBL for no consideration whatsoever (financial or whatever not even credit) as long as JBL offers the same to it's customers under the same terms. Sort of taking GPL into the product world.

Hi Navin,
You're crazy

and i love it.
OK so lets get some facts straight. JBL has many multiple divisions the broadest being OEM, consumer and professional. Engineers heckle with each other but all sponge off each other, which is prolly the best way to work. You are spot on about the sound of JBL. JBL does not produce laid back speakers. It's essentially american muscle and over 300 engineers at california do whatever they can to maintain this image. The result is an over 10,000 employee strong group, often called the GM of audio and definitely the biggest electronics giant of the world, with over 30 brands including Mark Levinson, Studer, Soundcraft, dbx, HK, Revel and so on
JBL Speakers are often rejected at the drawing board for having no attack or being too neutral or docile. It's JBL's USP. It's where they differ from B&W.

It works amazingly well for Car Audio, but I'll admit that home audio purists will pooh pooh the forward sound. But you try and convince a Maybach customer to buy a F50 and he will think you're crazy. Car Audio has always been fun and forward and dynamic. Which is why we do amazingly well in India. Indians listen to "Bunty aur Babli, Eminem, Paul Van Dyke and Metallica".Very few Indians will listen to "Bach, Thelonius Monk and Eros Ramazzotti". Works very well for JBL. JBL sells about 10 times more than Infinity in India for this reason.

JBL consumer does provide only the basic details of speakers in fact more than competing brands, but leave us not forget that it is, precisely what it is, consumer. Consumer electronics are created with price points and ease of use.
JBL Consumer does not sell drivers. JBL consumer uses it's pro sound hetitage to provide consumer friendly speakers at consumer friendly prices.

Harman also has a seperate company called "AUDAX" based in france that does this. AUDAX would happily provide you more specs than you need for any driver as would any company targeting the hi-fi DIY enthusiast, peerless denmark, vifa etc.
JBL professional does sell drivers, the 2226 and 2241, all classics used in cinemas and club and touring sounds. JBL professional are pioneers and touring sound and cinema sound and create cabinet designs and are replicated by all brands. JBL professional has no 16cm drivers that are sold to consumers.

If I win Miss India, I will bring an end to all poverty all greed and bring an end to all cars that are currently playing "Dus Bahaane kar ke le gaye dil"

You're a man after my own heart Navin, I hereby christen thee friend.

Vivekphadnis · 16th July 2005, 23:56

Good drivers and bad XOs (or no XOs as Aseem said). Sad situation indeed. Would it not be nice if more Indians would their own coils and knew what CTR, Blackgate or Solen were?

Frankly, I do not mind the bright sound of JBL. I just hated the Sony speakers and the Pioneers were just yuck. I was looking at quality more than anything else. And the car is not an environment where we can do much about soundstage etc (I think). So I thought why not have a blast in the car. As I told you earlier, I have Vifa floorstanders with a very nice amp I built. That serves my purpose of churning out good music (not merely loud music except for HT). I am a big fan of Mozart, Beethoven, Vivaldi etc. But in the car, it has to be UB40, Enigma. Of course, I would love to have the electrostats or the B&Ws but no money you see.

Then the sub thingie. I just want to experiment. No offence to anyone or any company but I just hate people throwing in money like crazy for whatever. Experimentation keeps me thinking and I love it. It gives me a rush (like every other DIYer) to listen to some good end result made out of your hands. As for the Dainty subs (ridiculous name I know), they seem "robust'' with rubber surrounds. So I thought I'll give it a try. What say thou?

aseem · 17th July 2005, 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

JBL triaxial 6" - GTO636e - Price Rs 3990/- incl VAT
JBL 6" Components GTO606Ce - Price Rs 6000/- incl VAT

Yes the sony components without crossovers are all rubbish

Navin: JBL Doesnt make an 8" tube.
Vivek: DAINTY??? DAINTY?????? I can understand a speaker called strong, robust etc etc, DAINTY??

thanks for giving this information that finally makes sense to a layman like me.

However please go ahead and add the following:

Cost of meaningful yet budget 4 channel amp and model number?

Cost, need, and budget and model number for an 8" base tube, since JBL dont make them, so any other.

Please post these answers before you discuss more complex stuff that makes no sense to novices like us. Once again thanks...

skumarit · 18th July 2005, 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Hey there!

The swift is the first car from the suzuki/maruti stable that uses the Euro standard of 6" in all 4 doors. Its nice to have a car that holds 4 decently sized speakers without and modi.
The rear door position is a little off, but still....
A good combo is a nice set of compos in the front and 2 or 3 way co-axes in the rear door. Personally I find 2 sets of compos a little excessive in a small hatch. Too much tweeting really. If you use sensitive components, you can connect them directly to the deck. I know this isnt recommended, but this option can be used if budget is a problem.
For the back i would suggest a single 10"box (if you like it tight... wait, dont we all

) or if you like deep boomy bass, a 12" tube can be strapped to the seat. Luggage-vuggage bhool jao. But you'll be able to take it out when you need to drop someone to the airport. When installing the bass box/tube make sure you use connectors, or when you disconnect, you'll bugger the amp. You can either use a 2 channel amplifier for the bass or a mono-block.

Let me know what kind of money is too much, i'll tell you what you can do. Whew.

Sam: Thanks for the advise. I have found Alphine Set
2->SWE-1242/MRP-M350/QLH-12D125 for $400 @ BestBuy. Should I go for this? If so, what is the best combination for Stereo system and 4 speakers? Thanks.

-SKumar

navin · 18th July 2005, 09:58

aseem,
Blaupunkt make an 8" tube. I got 2. I forget the cot and model number but pester me enough i and i will take a trek to my car and get the model numbers atleast.

The Sony 504 is good VFM at 5K if you can spend about 3K more the Alpine 340 has about the same power but is a bit smoother.

Sam,
I am old enough to remember the JBL's (today the brand is owned by Harman International) birth. James B Lansing left Altec Lansing (some say he was voted out) and started working on bringin the Studio sound home. Altec Lansing (and UREI) was big with the American Studions at the time.

Harman International was formed when Harman Kardon (of Citation amplifer fame) needed money. Slowly Harman International bought tthese brands (Infinity, Mark Levinson, Studer, Soundcraft, dbx, Revel, Audax). In some cases they bought the facilities too (Audax, dbx, etc..) in other cases just the brands. Today other than Bose no other Audio company makes as much profit.

JBL's Pro line used to have a 17cm driver but I think that too has been dispensed with as Audax's very good PR17 series was competing with it. Today If I remmeber right JBLs Pro line starts at 21cm but it really their 35cm+ drivers (15", 18", etc...) that sell well. I used the 2 B460's (each using one 2245) as part of my home audio system before WAF made me give it up.

Peerless, Vifa, ScanSpeak are now all part of Tymphany. That is another story. When I was in Odense and Videbeak, Vifa and ScanSpeak were seperate entities and Peerless was being restructured. All 3 companies as well as Dynaudio owe their existence to Ejvind Skaaning (http://www.flexunits.com/iz.asp?id=4|a|583|||). Mr. Skaaning is 75+ now. One good reason to be a loudpspeaker designer most of them grow old well (Ted Jordan, Neville Theil, Richard Small, Richard Vandersteen, Jim Theil (no relattion to Neville), Edgar Villchur (he's gone now), etc...) :-)

skumarit · 18th July 2005, 22:10

I am looking at following for my Swift Zxi. Any comments/recommendations?

Total cost is around 40k for (Alpine CDE-9845 / Polk Audio DB6500 / Polk DB675 / MRPT220 / MRP-F240 / Sub box / Two kits)

Will this combination works? Is it worth to get it from US?

Thanks.

Alpine CDE-9845 CD receiver with MP3 / WMA playback
$179.99

Alpine CDA-9851 CD receiver with MP3 / WMA playback
$279.99

Polk Audio MMC6500
6-1/2" component speaker system
$299.99

Polk Audio DB6500
6-1/2" Component Speaker System
$199.99
50% 2nd pair of Polk

Polk DB675 6-3/4" 2-way Speakers
$109.99
50% 2nd pair of Polk

Alpine "Get HAMRD" $199 Bass Package
MRPT220 2-channel amp
SWE-1242 12" sub
$199.99
Box: $69.99
Amp kit: $19.99

Alpine MRP-F240 4-channel car amplifier
40 watts RMS x 4
$199.99
Amp kit: $19.99

skumarit · 19th July 2005, 02:27

Here is my treat for Swift Zxi (which is probably still in the making) for $794.93, about Rs. 35K. Any comments/recommendations?

Alpine CDA-9847 CD/MP3/WMA Receiver
2 Alpine TYPE-R SPR-17LS 6-3/4" 2-WAY Component Speakers
2 Pioneer TS-A1681R 6-1/2" 4-WAY Speakers 6-1/2" CAR Speakers (could have done better)
2 Alpine TYPE-E SWE-1042 10" 4-OHM Component Subwoofer 10" Component Subwoofers
Alpine MRP-M350 200W X 1 CAR Amplifier Mono Subwoofer Amps
Qlogic Q-LOGIC Dual 10 Subwoofer Enclosure QLH-10D75

-SKumar

15th July 2005, 22:35	#106
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,321 Thanked: 9,500 Times	Front components: choose between JBL and Alpine. I went for Alpine. JBL is good too it is just different tastes. JBL is a bit brighter than Alpine. dont know about if the swift can fit triax 6x9 in the rear deck but you would be quite happy with coax 6" in the rear door. get teh 340. the 540 is more expensive. I assume they will sound the same with the 340 being the 540's lower power brother. Sam, Does JBL make a 8" tube. I dont think the Swift can take a bigger tube. If JBL does not make a 8" tube listen to the Blaupunkt 8" tube. Aseem and Moderators, I appologise for all the digressions and liberties taken. I guess I was just showing off. Sorry about this.
	() Thanks

15th July 2005, 23:00	#107
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	Aseem, it is highly improbable that components are being sold without crossovers. Feeding wrong frequency signals will destroy a driver. When they are selling a woofer and tweeter together, how can they expect the user to find his own crossovers. As for the bass tube, depends on how much you want to spend. Going in for a good brand for the mids and highs makes sense. But distortion is not very audible in low frequencies. So the Sony might be a cheaper option. I am planning to experiment with Dainty/Bolton sub drivers. Navin, Sam, you guys know these drivers. Last edited by Vivekphadnis : 15th July 2005 at 23:02.
	() Thanks

15th July 2005, 23:11	#108
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,321 Thanked: 9,500 Times	Bolton yes, Dainty no. Vivek, Since you are open to DIY I would even suggest taking a Pio 304F into a 1 cu. ft. aperiodic box. If you were in Mumbai I could have loaned you a couple of 302F built the same way.
	() Thanks

15th July 2005, 23:25	#109
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	I am just checking out the Pio 304F. Let me see. What I need is a good sub amp circuit and a layout. By the way, I am also planning to sell my eight-month old Alto and get a bigger car. The Alto is just not for massive subs.
	() Thanks

16th July 2005, 00:19	#110
aseem Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Delhi Posts: 1,730 Thanked: 442 Times	Guys the JBL 340 co-axials will cost approximately what??? Components in the front from JBL have what number, and approximate price??? Yes the Sony components for 4.5k come without corssover. Check it out at Sony India site and see for yourself.
	() Thanks

16th July 2005, 11:29	#112
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,321 Thanked: 9,500 Times	aseem, the 340 is the alpine amp not the JBL speaker. you had asked for an amp that might perform better than the sony. sorry i was not more specific. chalk it to my senile mind.
	() Thanks

16th July 2005, 11:48	#113
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,321 Thanked: 9,500 Times	sam, this is really off topic but i feel vivek might be interested... I find that many component speakers offer good quality drivers backed up by poor XO design. I understand cost contraints in the commercial market but what if go around this. Many years ago (in the 80s) I had taken some Polk drivers (car audio stuff) and squeezed what most listenerd felt was better performance by mesing with the XO. You think we can do this with JBL. The reason I ask this is because I feel JBLs drivers are very good (I have used the 2245 and 2235 as well as L82T in my past) but a bit too agressive (forward). Agreed this is what most people expect out of JBL. If JBL made speakers that sounded like Quad Electrostatics they'd disappoint many. I have been looking at many locally available drivers and what i find is: 1. not suited for the car enviroment (poor surrounds, not sealed well, etc...) 2. In consistent availability 3. no specs sheets (granted spec sheets are not the holy grail but they are a good starting point). For example if you dont know the Fs for tweeters you can damage them. If had known you before i did my RS system I would have explaored this then. My proposal. 1. I will purchase 4 16cm speakers from JBL. 2. If JBL can provide me reasonably accurate specs for the speakers I will offer all the results of my tinkering to JBL for no consideration whatsoever (financial or whatever not even credit) as long as JBL offers the same to it's customers under the same terms. Sort of taking GPL into the product world.
	() Thanks

16th July 2005, 23:56	#115
Vivekphadnis BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 690 Thanked: 2 Times	Good drivers and bad XOs (or no XOs as Aseem said). Sad situation indeed. Would it not be nice if more Indians would their own coils and knew what CTR, Blackgate or Solen were? Frankly, I do not mind the bright sound of JBL. I just hated the Sony speakers and the Pioneers were just yuck. I was looking at quality more than anything else. And the car is not an environment where we can do much about soundstage etc (I think). So I thought why not have a blast in the car. As I told you earlier, I have Vifa floorstanders with a very nice amp I built. That serves my purpose of churning out good music (not merely loud music except for HT). I am a big fan of Mozart, Beethoven, Vivaldi etc. But in the car, it has to be UB40, Enigma. Of course, I would love to have the electrostats or the B&Ws but no money you see. Then the sub thingie. I just want to experiment. No offence to anyone or any company but I just hate people throwing in money like crazy for whatever. Experimentation keeps me thinking and I love it. It gives me a rush (like every other DIYer) to listen to some good end result made out of your hands. As for the Dainty subs (ridiculous name I know), they seem "robust'' with rubber surrounds. So I thought I'll give it a try. What say thou? Last edited by Vivekphadnis : 17th July 2005 at 00:01.
	() Thanks

18th July 2005, 09:58	#118
navin Team-BHP Support Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 25,321 Thanked: 9,500 Times	aseem, Blaupunkt make an 8" tube. I got 2. I forget the cot and model number but pester me enough i and i will take a trek to my car and get the model numbers atleast. The Sony 504 is good VFM at 5K if you can spend about 3K more the Alpine 340 has about the same power but is a bit smoother. Sam, I am old enough to remember the JBL's (today the brand is owned by Harman International) birth. James B Lansing left Altec Lansing (some say he was voted out) and started working on bringin the Studio sound home. Altec Lansing (and UREI) was big with the American Studions at the time. Harman International was formed when Harman Kardon (of Citation amplifer fame) needed money. Slowly Harman International bought tthese brands (Infinity, Mark Levinson, Studer, Soundcraft, dbx, Revel, Audax). In some cases they bought the facilities too (Audax, dbx, etc..) in other cases just the brands. Today other than Bose no other Audio company makes as much profit. JBL's Pro line used to have a 17cm driver but I think that too has been dispensed with as Audax's very good PR17 series was competing with it. Today If I remmeber right JBLs Pro line starts at 21cm but it really their 35cm+ drivers (15", 18", etc...) that sell well. I used the 2 B460's (each using one 2245) as part of my home audio system before WAF made me give it up. Peerless, Vifa, ScanSpeak are now all part of Tymphany. That is another story. When I was in Odense and Videbeak, Vifa and ScanSpeak were seperate entities and Peerless was being restructured. All 3 companies as well as Dynaudio owe their existence to Ejvind Skaaning (http://www.flexunits.com/iz.asp?id=4\|a\|583\|\|\|). Mr. Skaaning is 75+ now. One good reason to be a loudpspeaker designer most of them grow old well (Ted Jordan, Neville Theil, Richard Small, Richard Vandersteen, Jim Theil (no relattion to Neville), Edgar Villchur (he's gone now), etc...) :-)
	() Thanks

18th July 2005, 22:10	#119
skumarit BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 40 Thanked: 0 Times	Swift Zxi: Alpine and Polk I am looking at following for my Swift Zxi. Any comments/recommendations? Total cost is around 40k for (Alpine CDE-9845 / Polk Audio DB6500 / Polk DB675 / MRPT220 / MRP-F240 / Sub box / Two kits) Will this combination works? Is it worth to get it from US? Thanks. Alpine CDE-9845 CD receiver with MP3 / WMA playback $179.99 Alpine CDA-9851 CD receiver with MP3 / WMA playback $279.99 Polk Audio MMC6500 6-1/2" component speaker system $299.99 Polk Audio DB6500 6-1/2" Component Speaker System $199.99 50% 2nd pair of Polk Polk DB675 6-3/4" 2-way Speakers $109.99 50% 2nd pair of Polk Alpine "Get HAMRD" $199 Bass Package MRPT220 2-channel amp SWE-1242 12" sub $199.99 Box: $69.99 Amp kit: $19.99 Alpine MRP-F240 4-channel car amplifier 40 watts RMS x 4 $199.99 Amp kit: $19.99 Last edited by skumarit : 18th July 2005 at 22:19. Reason: addition
	() Thanks

19th July 2005, 02:27	#120
skumarit BHPian Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 40 Thanked: 0 Times	Here is my treat for Swift Zxi (which is probably still in the making) for $794.93, about Rs. 35K. Any comments/recommendations? Alpine CDA-9847 CD/MP3/WMA Receiver 2 Alpine TYPE-R SPR-17LS 6-3/4" 2-WAY Component Speakers 2 Pioneer TS-A1681R 6-1/2" 4-WAY Speakers 6-1/2" CAR Speakers (could have done better) 2 Alpine TYPE-E SWE-1042 10" 4-OHM Component Subwoofer 10" Component Subwoofers Alpine MRP-M350 200W X 1 CAR Amplifier Mono Subwoofer Amps Qlogic Q-LOGIC Dual 10 Subwoofer Enclosure QLH-10D75 -SKumar
	() Thanks

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