15th May 2013, 14:34
| #12091 | ||
| Senior - BHPian  Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Quote:
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15th May 2013, 16:38
| #12092 | ||
| BHPian  | Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Quote:
So if this helps anyone! this is my view. In simple words without going too technical. If channel A is used for front or rear speaker. And You decide to push volume to the max with little bit of boost in eq of 40 -60hz range, the speakers cones are going to play low frequency having lot more excursion on them. Its nothing bad, but on some budget speakers you can easily bottom out the speakers. And when speakers are close to xmax, the SQ will take a hit. Quote:
Just use the following as a sample scenario. Assuming kenwood amp for front speakers and the same amp's channel B or even a separate amp for the sub. Based on the vehicle type, enclosure type, sub, location and crossover settings of the sub amp (lets say 80hz lpf) there might be a phase cancellation at around 80 to 100hz region. Lets say there is one for the sake of this theory. You can lower the Crossover(lpf) to 60hz or 70hz on the sub amp. Depending on the setup it might help or there might a dip in the spectrum. What if, you could push the front crossover to 100hz and push the sub to 80 or 90hz.... Anyways Having proper crossovers on the amp is always better than having non or a fixed one! | ||
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15th May 2013, 17:39
| #12093 | ||||
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Quote:
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1. Are you describing your *previously* mentioned scenario, or is this a new scenario? I was expecting an answer w.r.t. your previous scenario 2. How is Phase Cancellation getting corrected by pushing up the LPF to 80 / 100 / whatever frequency? * Isn't the sub anyhow not supposed to handle that F region (normally installed, not F response)? * If one is using less-capable speakers in the front (cannot go lower than 120Hz, for example, which may need the sub to play higher), why in the first place is the sub put in? Why not NOT SET the LPF at all, since the sub will naturally not make any recognizable sound above 250Hz? * If there is 'phase cancellation' (not able to visualize why only in the 80-100 Hz region) - why is the Phase cancellation not being analyzed and tackled? As I mentioned above, it can only be lack of capability in that region in the front speaker, and not 'phase cancellation' (which has a different genus) | ||||
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16th May 2013, 10:28
| #12094 | ||||||||
| BHPian | Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Quote:
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The 12db roll off sometimes doesnt help. Many a times you need 16db or 24db slope (I agree those slopes exist not just to protect the speakers but lets use the idea for the particular reason). If you car has 4 inch driver. 80hz wont really help if the owner has a habit of cranking it up. The simplest method is to reduce the gain if you hear speaker popping (bottoming out). I used to do that on the kenwood amps long ago. I believe most of the people are tuning in this way. Setting 80hz hpf on 12db slope doesn't mean the speaker wouldnt see 50hz. It only means 50hz would be heavily attenuated compared to the -3db attenuation of 80hz. I am not against the kenwood amp, they are the best and reliable amp within the price range. Never had a failed one (unless you dipped it in salt water). I am only saying If i were to choose an amp, I would prefer one with variable crossover settings on HPF and LPF. Quote:
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First of we need to know why its there or whether its phase cancellation or something else. (Bad install, Reverse polarity on speakers or sub etc...) (I bet there will be question on reverse polarity and phase, are those the same?)  Anyways I will outline the step quickly without details. Are the speakers all on the same phase and polarity? Easy way to know that is to check the polarity. Then use a phase testing tool to confirm. Use the balance control on Head unit for the following two steps * Play front speakers on test tones from 40hz onwards to around 125hz to see if they are not cancelling out. * Play rear speakers and try the same method above Use the Fader control on Head unit * Bring in slightly the front speakers and if there is no cancellation, its time to bring in the sub stage. Use Sub control on Head unit or remote * Bring in the sub on each of test tone range from 30 all the way to 125hz. Listen carefully and it will be evident where the speakers are cancelling the sub or vice versa. For the context here, lets say we found a phase issue and it can be fixed only by messing around with Crossover settings. May we want to try settings at speakers on 100hz -12db slope and sub on 80hz -12db on the amp to rectify this. So how would you do this or atleast try to see if that can fix if your amp has fixed setting. (Now lets say I run a business and I was doing this installation for a customer. How do i explain to the customer during a tuning session that I am limited on tuning due to this? Would sound really lame.) An RTA helps at this moment to see if there is a dip in the spectrum or listening can help if you know what to look for. Quote:
Generally people add a sub and become happy about those 40hz and 50hz boost. Eventually they complaint that the punch is lacking or the sub has too much rumble. Quote:
It might sound really bad if we try this on a sub that doesn't have the required frequency response. (30Hz to 100Hz only subs) And there are subs with frequency response all way to 1000hz and it can be smartly installed to get loud if sound stage is not a problem. But Lets say you do not set crossover on a sub that does 1000W RMS and the amp is truly capable of driving that power. You will soon cook the Voice coil. Cooling is a huge part in subwoofer construction. Those 120hz upwards of musical power will not help much in cooling the voice coil as there wouldn't be much excursion. Quote:
It could be due to the lack of capability of the speakers or sub. And it has to be analyzed before just running to the crossover and changing it. For me crossover setting is the fine tuning before i touch the equalizer for tonality. The only reason why we are stuck at 80hz is because of the topic on the 80hz fixed hpf of kenwood amp. Once again all the above is applicable on case to case basis and doesnt mean Kenwood amp is bad. And generally the idea is to feel that the bass upfront and blending with the front speaker stage. What does this mean to me and why am i going on an on. When I set the crossover correctly I feel the bass upfront. (TA is another subject that i dont want to touch) Hope all the above information helps someone! We are all learning as SQ and SPL is extremely challenging in car audio. (Same goes for mono amps with phase control knob - I would prefer amps with phase variation control) Last edited by general_neo : 16th May 2013 at 10:38. Reason: Added last line | ||||||||
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16th May 2013, 11:41
| #12095 | |||
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Quote:
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Please do take time to patiently read the other threads in the ICE section. There is a wealth of information here, from people who can teach the theory and practice of the subject. 'Challenging' is not a deterrent nor a driver here. | |||
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16th May 2013, 12:07
| #12096 | |
| BHPian | Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Quote:
Because for a base I have explained my part. In the end all that matter is how it sounds I read and have read lot of informative threads in this forum. It helped me a lot. Actually I would like to meet many of the sq gurus here to gain more knowledge. For me challenge is a driver since I do this everyday for living. | |
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16th May 2013, 12:19
| #12097 | ||
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Quote:
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Those who do it as a business, do not take on 'challenging' as a driver - conventional logic. There is a saying in Hindi, which - roughly translated - says "If a horse were to fall in love with grass, what will it eat" | ||
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16th May 2013, 14:02
| #12098 |
| BHPian | |
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16th May 2013, 14:35
| #12099 | ||
| Team-BHP Support   Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai
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Most HUs that have subwoofer (LPF) settings often also have a option to set phase to either 0 deg or 180 deg. This helps most installs. There are amps however (especially subwoofer amplifiers) that allow the installer to control level, frequency, slope and even compensate for phase. I have not seen the JBL or Kenwood models discussed earlier so I cannot say for certain what controls either of these amps have. But because most subwoofer amplifiers have these controls and because having a separate subwoofer amplifier ensures that a bass transient does not suck the energy out of the rest,of the musical spectrum (since the two amps have separate power supplies) I would recommend a subwoofer amp if the install can afford it. For smaller installs a 4 ch amp is adequate besides few such smaller installs are going to be used in a "competition setting". Hence if one really wants to compensate for phase one would most likely require a multiple amp install - one amp for the front and rear speakers and a second amp for the subwoofer ( of course one can add more amps if required - the sky is the limit). Quote:
General Neo, nice to see professionals posting on TBHP. I am sure we can learn a lot from your REAL WORLD experiences. In my experience (I am neither a professional nor an expert) most car installs require a simple HU+Amp+Sub+4 speakers. Most of us drive our cars in traffic and would rarely be aware of phase cancellation or even minor frequency response aberrations. A competition is another thing. BTW which car audio competitions are you referring to? This thread has gone a bit astray. Lets use our collective knowledge to help fellow members na? | ||
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16th May 2013, 15:06
| #12100 | |||
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Quote:
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16th May 2013, 15:43
| #12101 |
| BHPian Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: ~
Posts: 242
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16th May 2013, 15:48
| #12102 | ||||||
| BHPian | Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Sir Navin, I have been reading your posts from ages. It has helped if not guided people like me to set things right. I understood discussion is gone astray hence my previous post saying I can help if some has issues. Just let me answer your points and stay away to avoid further damaged. Quote:
This phase change added to a slight overlap on crossover settings will affect certain type of music. Even if there is no overlap on physically crossover settings there will be still overlap in actual frequencies when playing music Anyways always better to use the 24db crossover attenuation on the HU to solve complicated phase issues! (Related to competition) And when we show a demo car with competition settings, the person who is listening would expect the same to be replicated on his competition capable daily driven car. Quote:
The confusing factor here is, On the Headunit the Subwoofer option have setting called "Reverse" (Pioneer). And on the subwoofer amplifier it says 0 - 180degrees Phase. If we take the actually meaning. Both are not the same. Technically, Reverse is reverse polarity, like reversing the polarity on the sub. When you say phase change by 180, its kind of moving/switching the phase by 180 degrees in reference to time. Quote:
Or a Headunit or processor that can do this part and let amps do the amplification only. Quote:
Our builds are the efforts of multiple individuals. For example in our team. I do the system design, integration, enclosure designs, wiring, Base tuning, Quality check. Fabrication and physical installation is done by someone else Final SQ tuning and settings is done by another person. If the customer goes by our recommendation on products and install, we don't care whether there is traffic or earthquake, the system should sound ultimate. Sometimes tuning without processor goes over a day. This might not make the owner happy at that moment, but it does make us happy that the job is done properly. When delivering a project I am always on my heels because what might sound awesome to us might not be the customer preference. We are talking about things that we don't see. Quote:
I am currently based in UAE and here we have EMMA Arabia (European multimedia association). We have some times international judges coming to judge the cars. And we have been having some winning SQ, SPL and ESQL cars from the shop. Sorry to go astray. Back to the subject. Once again for everyone's information. Quote:
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16th May 2013, 16:23
| #12103 | |
| Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Quote:
Do audition the components before you buy - you may not like some. | |
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16th May 2013, 16:45
| #12104 |
| BHPian Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: ~
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| Re: Car Audio Advice from the Audio Gurus: Use "Search thread" before posting a new Q Thanks DerAlte, Should I go for 2 speakers at the rear and keep the front as is? This is what I did for my Ikon and it has worked well till date or should I replace the front with 2 new or maybe buy 4(2 at front n rear each)? Wht's the optimal capacity for a car sized like Eon... |
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16th May 2013, 17:13
| #12105 |
| BHPian Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Bangalore
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