[n:CorE]

I guess there is a 2.2L Diesel engine on offer in the UK in the Civic Type S, If that engine launches in India, I will make a booking that day itself, without waiting for any reviews/opinion whatsoever, Even if it's a tad-pricey, I wouldn't mind! (I am a honda enthusiast and currently drive a 2007 Civic A/T). As much as I love the car for its performance, its just that sometimes when I even go close to the pedal, I feel like a fool who's paying almost Rs.70/- per litre of fuel in a 45 liter fuel tank which returns me a 7-8kmpl on even slightly enthusiastic driving. I am in love with the civic, and a diesel engine to go with it, would be like cherry on the cake! And I am sure there will be many people who think like me. Anyways, I have completed 4 years and a good 51k kms on the car, I will be looking out for a replacement soon and all i can think of is the 9th gen civic, but if its diesel .. I'll be the happiest man on earth.

Even if the Indian markets call for the 2.2L diesel engine to be plonked in the Accord, I wouldn't mind considering an upgrade too. Right now, the only thing that stops me from even thinking of a Honda is the all-petrol engine policy.

Come on honda! Get the diesels to India already. However, the cards shall be turned if the deregulation of the prices of diesel. Then everyone is jacked :P

[shortbread]

@ bkbr

If you want to spend your money on a Honda go ahead, but peoples choice are subjective.

But as per your question here are my better options,

new Verna, Jetta, Superb and Captiva.

Like I said every car has their pros and cons. You were the one who went on to claim that 'Hyundai are nowhere near the Japs' and still have not given me a real comparison as to why?! You have not replied to this despite being questioned about the same, atleast three times now.

[vb-san]

Originally Posted by souravc

If we look at the Indian car buyer , it graduated from a M800 to Alto and now the hottest segment is the sedan which is still a small car by Global standards - as I see it, its only a matter of time before Civics, Corollas, Lauras and Jettas would be the hot segment in India . It's a clear trend that we are upgrading , that we are upsizing in size as well as the price we are willing to shell out.

Now this is one great point – which the Indian car buyers are upgrading to bigger segments. And great example as well. In case of Suzuki, someone who used drive a Zen / Esteem got a logical upgrade option in Swift, and if a current Swift owner is looking for an upgrade, he got an option of moving to the next segment via SX4, or the competitors.

Here is where Honda could have done better. They went on a price hike competition within themselves, that an upgrade from one Honda to another becomes virtually impossible. For e.g. Mr.X went and bought a Honda Civic AT in 2008 for a price of approx. 13 lakhs, with a 3 year plan, thinking that he could earn enough to upgrade to a CR-V in 3 years, which was around 19 lakhs in 2008. Now after 3 years, he earns as per plan, but what’s the price of CR-V in year 2011 – a whopping 25 lakhs. This is almost 100% more than his initial plan. End result – go and shop elsewhere!

This can be one area for correction in the way forward.

[arvi86]

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

As much as you would like to believe it, let us admit that Hyundai is nowhere near it's Jap counterparts. Not even Suzuki, let alone Honda and Toyota.

That statement surprises me. Do you mean to say that Maruti-Suzuki in India makes better cars than Hyundai? Or are you comparing Suzuki's international lineup with Hyundai's? If its the former, except for the Swift, I dont think Suzuki makes outright better models than Hyundai in any of the segments they compete in (Santa Fe vs Grand Vitara, Sonata vs Kizashi, Verna vs SX4, i10 vs Wagon-R, i20 vs Swift, Santro vs Alto). If its the latter, then you have to wake up to the realities of life. Hyundai is far far ahead of Suzuki.

Since Honda and Toyota are also far ahead of Suzuki, Hyundai is now, in most departments, matching Hondas and Toyotas.

Originally Posted by bkbkr1212

Hi friend,
But if I have 10-11 lacs, I would rather invest in a Honda, Toyota or a Maruti Suzuki than on any Hyundai cars.

To each his own. Agreed, you will invest in a Honda. But there are a whole lot of other people (more than people like you) who are willing to invest in a Hyundai and that shows in the sales charts. Infact, that is what has prompted this thread itself in the first place. Honda has finally lost its leadership in all the segments that they are competing in. Remember, they were once leading every segment in India.

[adimicra]

The car market is wide open now with so many options ...and it is normal that Honda can't dominate all the segments as they used to do earlier.
Let the Honda guys figure out how they want to counter this. I am sure they have done more analysis and brainstorming than what we have been doing here.

Honda makes damn good cars, definitely one of the best brands in the market they operate (leaving aside the really luxury brands).

There are a few, in fact very few guys like yours truly who find value in their offering and put their hard earned money to buy a Honda. And as far as I see, most Honda owners are a highly satisfied bunch of people and would love to put their money on a Honda again.

To the majority, Honda cars are overpriced and not VFM, and on top of that without a diesel option. So, they are flocking elsewhere as they do have a lot of options.

Let us not bring up the sales numbers every time to prove a point. It is not so difficult to understand the Indian psyche. Honda does not make custom-made cars for India. Majority of Indians have a herd mentality and very few have the ability to think independently - others' perception is more important than his/her own requirement. Higher sales of a car do not mean that the car is great. I , for one, do not want Honda to make custom vehicles for India like the Etios and the Figo, which will sell in huge numbers but make people like me shy away from the Honda brand.

Yes, I want Honda India to up the ante by bringing in cutting edge technology and features and not compromise on their core values of quality engineering to make their products appear 'VFM'. We have many 'VFM' brands and we can do without one more I guess. I just want Honda to give us the stuff that they give to the rest of the world - more features, more customization options, latest technology and more at reasonable prices

[Sn1p3r]

I might be out of line from the above discussion and thus feel we deviate from the topic. Buying car is not a financial investment and thus if we should look at the car as an object of transportation and what it means for different people. Honda being expensive is one thing for it to provide feature rich list is another. Perceived value of a product well will be different for different people here we the matter is why Honda is struggling after a flyer. Competition, mature market, petrol pricing etc. are the prime reasons but if we start on to compare features and who's who of the industry then the discussion is surely going awry.

[blackasta]

Originally Posted by adimicra

Honda does not make custom-made cars for India.

True - but their bread-earner is a car custom built for the south asian and south-east asian countries which resemble Indian market in many ways - the City.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by adimicra

Honda does not make custom-made cars for India

Then why do they remove all the features in the indian version? The city even when compared to Thai spec is stripped in India. The Accord does not have a list of features that are found in the Thai spec.

How is it that Skoda/VW can also bring cars that are not custom made for India like the Superb/Passat and still price it competitively to an Accord?

How did Hyundai bring in the Verna which is not custom made for India with more features and reasonably good engines for lesser than the Honda's cost?

Talking about quality, there are quite a few threads that talk about the cheap plastics in the ANHC, the poor rubber beadings and what not.

Let's face it, the competition has caught up but Honda has been found with it pants down. The Jazz costs close to 9L and is a fantastic product then why do people still pay 9L for a Hyundai i20 CRDi? That's not herd mentality. It's not VFM at all 9L for a i20.

[adimicra]

Yeah, I agree that ANHC is for South Asian markets. And to me, features are nice to have but quality, reliability and good engineering is a must.
Skoda and VW does not provide any great features in their entry level cars. Besides, they lose out big time on reliability etc.

Hyundai cars like the ANHV is prices closed to ANHC, a little less for similar or more features.
But, is the engine as good as ANHC? What about the steering? What about the boat-like ride?
But I know people don't care much about these things. Hyundai is a trusted brand here and when people see the amount of features and chrome all around, they are enamoured.
Quality of ANHC is not that great compared to other cars in the Honda stable and that's just because it is built for South Asian markets and not the whole world.But, hold on, that is Honda's bread and butter model, which sells to a certain extent.
You see, that proves my point.

The seemingly VFM (cheap) cars sell in India. Why Toyota made Etios for India? Why the Figo, built on a much older platform sells in hordes?
We all know Ford or Toytoa can't release those cars in developed markets

I remember reading an interview of Honda's India Head where he explained why the prices are seemingly high.
For cars like Civic/Jazz, which are sold worldwide, they try to maintain the same standard across which means the quality requirements are very high and it pushes up the costs. Also, the Yen is hurting them badly, as some of the critical components are sourced from Japan.

Herd mentality of Indians is well known and well proven fact in various researches and market study. Nothing new I am saying.
And it is a statement about majority of Indians and TBHPians do not belong in that category.

Anyways, I rest my case on this topic.

[vb-san]

Originally Posted by adimicra

The car market is wide open now with so many options...
...latest technology and more at reasonable prices

Adi, Almost all of the points mentioned above make perfect sense, especially you being a Honda customer. And you own one of the best-sellers from Honda (in the small car space worldwide, except India).

I agree that sales numbers does not mean that the car is great. For e.g.; I feel Fiat Linea TJet is an exceptionally good car, but sales numbers are dismal.

You are right in saying that Honda does not make market specific products like Figo or Etios, but that does not mean that market specific products are bad. Figo and Etios became success because of their own individual strong points and not my herd mentality.

And the points mentioned by Blackasta and Vid are so relevant.
City is indeed a market specific car, at a time when there was no real competition, it worked well in India, but now with others catching up and even going better, strategies need to be reviewed and revised. It is not a bad car, but the fact is, it is depleted of comfort features in comparison to competitors and also comparing with the City variants sold in SEA markets.

And then, we have the wonderful Jazz – why did they decide to bring in Jazz with a 1.2L motor, when they have it running on 1.3 or 1.5 in other Asian markets? It’s clearly a case of under estimating the customers. I am not saying 1.2 is bad, but a 1.5 option from the beginning itself would have seriously launched the Jazz into the big league. I personally feel bad with the fact that Jazz is not doing well in India.

This is no way a Honda bashing exercise. There is so much discussion because Honda is a respectable brand in the country, and most of us want them to do well. Say, if this thread name was “Volvo: the way forward”, the discussion would have died off after a couple of pages.

[Sn1p3r]

^the 1.2 liter engine comes in handy to tackle government norms. Hatchback = small is ingrained in indian psyche. No one will buy a Golf for the price of an Accord in India barring someone who knows it's value.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by vb-san

Adi, Almost all of the points mentioned above make perfect sense, especially you being a Honda customer. And you own one of the best-sellers from Honda (in the small car space worldwide, except India).

I agree that sales numbers does not mean that the car is great. For e.g.; I feel Fiat Linea TJet is an exceptionally good car, but sales numbers are dismal.

You are right in saying that Honda does not make market specific products like Figo or Etios, but that does not mean that market specific products are bad. Figo and Etios became success because of their own individual strong points and not my herd mentality.

And the points mentioned by Blackasta and Vid are so relevant.
City is indeed a market specific car, at a time when there was no real competition, it worked well in India, but now with others catching up and even going better, strategies need to be reviewed and revised. It is not a bad car, but the fact is, it is depleted of comfort features in comparison to competitors and also comparing with the City variants sold in SEA markets.

And then, we have the wonderful Jazz – why did they decide to bring in Jazz with a 1.2L motor, when they have it running on 1.3 or 1.5 in other Asian markets? It’s clearly a case of under estimating the customers. I am not saying 1.2 is bad, but a 1.5 option from the beginning itself would have seriously launched the Jazz into the big league. I personally feel bad with the fact that Jazz is not doing well in India.

This is no way a Honda bashing exercise. There is so much discussion because Honda is a respectable brand in the country, and most of us want them to do well. Say, if this thread name was “Volvo: the way forward”, the discussion would have died off after a couple of pages.

Well said mate. I agree except one point - Jazz 1.5 would have been an even bigger disaster than the current Jazz, period LOL.Indian mentality is simple- the bigger car we get for the same price is better. hatchback=small and cheap car. Sedan=big and costly car, more prestige and more social status.

I like the point you make about the Honda brand - most people who bash Honda also have a desire to buy their cars as they also know that Honda makes damn good cars

The point I am trying to make is my own and I not asking anyone to agree.
I have my own preferences and requirements and for that sake - I do not want Honda to do a 'Etios' or 'Figo' just for increasing the sales numbers...I want them to bring us the latest products with great features and latest technology to India, thought it might be priced higher than the competition ( a little higher, not totally absurd).There will be people like me who will pay that reasonable premium while the majority will not and that is perfectly fine with me.


I can't help but draw an analogy with Bollywood. Sorry for being OT.
10 years back ,there were 2 films which released on the same date - Gadar and Lagaan. While Lagaan was successful, Gadar went on to become one of the biggest blockbusters of all times. But, till date, I have not found a single person who like Gadar more than Laagan. There are so many examples. I am sure you guys have watched and liked 'Dil Chahta Hai' - I have seen it so many times but do you know it was not even commercially very successful.
Then there are films like 'Dabang' which are mega blockbusters but is totally intolerable to me.
Again here, I am in the minority. I want films like 'Dil Chahta Hai' and 'Laagan' irrespective of what the majority likes. Imagine the scene where every film maker just wants to earn money and only make films like 'Dabang' etc.
and we wont have 'Dil Chahta Hai's any more. I don't want that

Again apologies for the silly analogy.Enough ranting..now back to work

[vb-san]

Originally Posted by adimicra

I agree except one point - Jazz 1.5 would have been an even bigger disaster than the current Jazz, period LOL.Indian mentality is simple- the bigger car we get for the same price is better. hatchback=small and cheap car. Sedan=big and costly car, more prestige and more social status.

Not sure of that. I feel they should have shown some courage in belief in themselves, and put forward the best possible option in front of the customer. Who knows, the maybe 1.5 Jazz would have been a game changer in that segment (even if priced closer to the City).

If I remember correctly, the original Honda City was expensive in comparison to other sedans in the market then, but it was hugely successful. That’s the power of an honest product. Problem with the way they handled Jazz was that, it looked compromised and expensive at the same time. I still feel that, the Civic and the Jazz are the best Honda products on sale in India.

On the OT, I will PM you separately

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by vb-san

Not sure of that. I feel they should have shown some courage in belief in themselves, and put forward the best possible option in front of the customer. Who knows, the maybe 1.5 Jazz would have been a game changer in that segment (even if priced closer to the City).

If I remember correctly, the original Honda City was expensive in comparison to other sedans in the market then, but it was hugely successful. That’s the power of an honest product. Problem with the way they handled Jazz was that, it looked compromised and expensive at the same time. I still feel that, the Civic and the Jazz are the best Honda products on sale in India.

On the OT, I will PM you separately

If the Jazz 1.5 was available, I would have the first to buy it even if it costs a lakh more (with some extra goodies).
But I don't think the majority thinks like we do. I have had to explain to almost every person I met after buying my car as to why I have bought a small car when I could have afforded a big car. It irritated me a lot and now if anyone asks, I don't bother to explain any more.
The City is a sedan and though it was expensive, people attached the sense of status and prestige with it and hence it was successful. In India, most people don't feel same for hatchbacks, even if it is damn good.
That's why Ford is thinking a hundred times before launching the Fiesta hatchback, which IMO is a cracker of a car. Sad but true.

And yes, Jazz and Civic are the best Honda products in India and that's why both these cars are very successful worldwide.

[alto99]

2011 Honda City Prices Revised
Are they reading this thread!