[bigman]

Yes, the VFM given by Safari is more, but the sales volumes do not speak the fact that more than 70% of Scorpio consumers go in for base variants, and are fleet/tourist operators. The Safari is marketed as a lifestyle vehicle, and hence even though it competes with the Scorpio price-wise, it is not the 'obvious' choice due to the practicality factor.

How is the Safari better VFM ? I have tried both vehicles and found the Scorpio to be the real VFM vehicle out the two.

To be honest with you I prefer simplicity and as such power mirrors, rear view cameras, gaming consoles etc etc do not count much when I look at vehicles.

As for comfort, I have done 4/5 hour drives in the Safari and Scorpio and sat hours in Delhi traffic. To me both vehicles were level when it came to comfort. I have not had a chance to sample the ride quality in the new Scorpio but the ride in the old one was not on par with the Safari.

In the looks department the Safari looks dated in design. The Scorpio with its recent revamp looks very fresh. It will be interesting to see what the Safari replacement looks like.

[w 12]

"Brakes & handling on the new Scorpio are still as scary as earlier. I was scared witless at speeds beyond 80 kmph."

How many thousand KMs have you driven in the old and new scorpio to make that statement? I have done more than 15,000 so far and I dont think so.

"He has beaten the pants off modded Zens, Baleno and Hondas"

Every vehicle has its strength and weakness. An auto can overtake a mercedes in a crowded lane , that doesnot make it any better. And a Baleno / City V tec can lick any indian suv in plains and ghats anyday. Offroad is a different issue.

"Pl read the last Top Gear."

I did and they chose Scorpio at the end of the day.

"One has to adapt one's drving style. "

True for all SUVs with high CGs. So Stop trashing Scorpio , as being difficult to drive.

"Mahindra only makes it to order, "

Yes and mainly for export market. and dealers to prefer to push the fast moving 4x 2s, as ordering and stocking one offs is a pain for them.

[w 12]

"the fact that more than 70% of Scorpio consumers go in for base variants, and are fleet/tourist operators"

Dont agrre on that Veyron , More than 50% of the sales are in the top version SlX and balance between Topend and bottom end. and a very minute percentage is bought by fleet operators unlike qualis earlier or Sumo now.

"For example, the Honda Accord and the Toyota Camry are aimed at the same market"

The company can aim whereever it wants..but unles the customer thinks there is a value / quality proposition , he will not buy. So now Safari is offering discounts of 50,000 and are planning to reduce prices within a week. Obviously something is hurting.

"harsh braking from 130 kmph+ quite a few times do tend to fade the brakes"

IMo this will happen with more than 99% of vehicles., if repeated enough number of times.

[w 12]

Steeroid - "tail lamp clusters that are purely decorative and have no lights inside."

Exaggeration.. There are lights inside..only the upper portion is reflective

Stteroid - "Phenomenal how little it takes to fool people!"

You have every right to your views. But Please stop being condescending. IMO , it is easier to fool less than 3000 safari buyers in a year than 33,000 scorpio buyers last year. Many cars / SUVs ( including safari ) have Ski racks on their tops..So are they all fooling indian people ? no one carries skis on top of cars here.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by w 12

You have every right to your views. But Please stop being condescending.

Okay, so what do you want us to say - that the Scorpio is a better vehicle? Please yourself.

[varunroy]

[quote]

Originally Posted by maxbhp

Safari is a good offroader in a different meaning , I mean offroading bcoz most of the time its not on the road but in Tata's service centres ,

What you have mentioned here is the absolute truth, and I don't think that I could agree more with anything else other than what you have stated above.

I have always maintained that Tata could do wonders only if their service could improve. This can happen only if the quality of Spare parts improve.

I am not so sure about the Scopio Service, because I haven't had first hand experience with them. But one thing I am sure of is that the thrill and the punch you have in driving a Safari is defenitely miisng with the Scorpio.

For me its the SAFARI without Tata Service.

So long....

[varunroy]

[quote=Steeroid]
For the record, I drive with the a/c on all the time, hill station or not. Its usually not on for cooling but to keep pollution out - Ooty may be cool but it sure as hell is not pollution free. In fact pollution seems worse in Ooty than in the plains. Switching off the a/c is therefore not an issue.[/quote]

You are missing the point here. By asking the person to switch off his AC, was only with a purpose of having less strain on the Engine, especially when you are on an incline as bad as that and when the Engine is fuming hot.

Thanks for the Education, which I personally appreciate but for a layman it doesn't matter at what pressure the fuel is delivered to what areas. All he needs and expects ( after paying 10+ lacs) that the pressure on his right foot pedal reciprocates to the power in the car. And we all know how the Safari gobbles up the roads on the Highway. However the Rate of this gobble is comparatively more on the fuel tank, but thats a different issue.

Regarding the AC, I agree with you and strongly recommend its usage at all times. Other than the advantages you have mentioned it keeps the noise out, (especially when you cross a laden truck coming from the opposite direction) Keeps your car interiors Dust free. After a long journey you are so fatigue free. Out of the 1.35 lacs km covered om my car I have used 1.34 with the AC.

So long....

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by varunroy

You are missing the point here. By asking the person to switch off his AC, was only with a purpose of having less strain on the Engine, especially when you are on an incline as bad as that and when the Engine is fuming hot.

Thats the point - I have never faced a situation where I need to turn off the engine in nearly one year of safari use, and that includes climbing up some pretty steep rocks (see BHP garage). A/c is always on, and the engine never runs out of steam.

Originally Posted by varunroy

And we all know how the Safari gobbles up the roads on the Highway. However the Rate of this gobble is comparatively more on the fuel tank, but thats a different issue.

Hmmmm...my Dicor returns 10-11 kmpl regularly with some uncouth driving. I know this is relative, but I dont think this is such a big issue because smaller cars return the same mileage, on Petrol.

[varunroy]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Thats the point - I have never faced a situation where I need to turn off the engine in nearly one year of safari use, and that includes climbing up some pretty steep rocks (see BHP garage). A/c is always on, and the engine never runs out of steam.

Thats your car Steeroid, and probably you are lucky, but they are others who feel differently. I have driven several Safaris where the diffence with/without AC can be visibly noted on a flat road. I have also noticed many Cab drivers switch off their ACs while overtaking on an incline.

In your case I am sure like its owner your car too never runs out of steam. Happy driving.

So long....

[w 12]

Steeroid, this is what you said earlier "Phenomenal how little it takes to fool people!"

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Okay, so what do you want us to say -.

Us to say? I thought you were giving your personal opinion and not that of team BHP. Who is this "us"?

Any way I want your group "us" not to assume that everyone else who may not agree with your opinion / buying decision is a fool. That would be the height of arrogance IMO.

"that the Scorpio is a better vehicle? "

It may be to some and may not be to some. And it is secondary what you like or what you buy. That does not mean you can call everyone who disagrees with you a fool in a public forum. Respect for each others view is non-negotiable.

"Please yourself."

Reinforces what I said about arrogance earlier. I don't need your permission to please myselves.

[normally_crazy]

This is a tough choice - the Scorpio rocks with its CRDe engine that has considerable grunt , good looks and relatively more FE . But then it sucks big time on the handling - its not confidence inspriring at all.

The Safari Dicor looks way better than the new Scorpio with the psuedo tower refector lamps (were M&M replicating the Petronas towers ?) , its got great ability to chew up the highway and its more comfortable and roomier than the Scorpio .

For me - The Dicor inspite of the niggling TATA quality.

[veyron1]

Originally Posted by bigman

How is the Safari better VFM ? I have tried both vehicles and found the Scorpio to be the real VFM vehicle out the two.

To be honest with you I prefer simplicity and as such power mirrors, rear view cameras, gaming consoles etc etc do not count much when I look at vehicles.

Well, it's good to know that you do not give two hoots about the extravagances, but that still does not hide the fact that Mahindra is not giving enough equipment with the Scorpio (c'mon, not even an engine bay lamp as O.E for 9 lacs+? Agreed, you could always fit one aftermarket for 400 rupees, but going for an aftermarket unit that SHOULD have been O.E is disconcerting). VFM is decided on grounds of the car's net worth being offered in the market, and that includes equipment on offer. IMHO, VFM might not exactly be as individualistic an opinion as styling.

Originally Posted by w12

Dont agrre on that Veyron , More than 50% of the sales are in the top version SlX and balance between Topend and bottom end. and a very minute percentage is bought by fleet operators unlike qualis earlier or Sumo now.

Well, I do not have the EXACT sales figures for the Scorpio percentage-wise, but I do have a rough idea about the sales figures from the local Sai service and Mahindra dealer; it seems that out of the 500 or so new Scorpios sold so far, about 350-400 units are the DX version, and most have been sold to either tourist operators, or to commercial organisations. My statements were based on this fact. Of course, since I do not have hard statistics or the sales figures for the country, I cannot concrete my quote.

Originally Posted by w12

The company can aim whereever it wants..but unles the customer thinks there is a value / quality proposition , he will not buy. So now Safari is offering discounts of 50,000 and are planning to reduce prices within a week. Obviously something is hurting.

Agreed, it's all about pleasing the consumer; But you missed my point. What I was implying was this- although 2 cars may be targeted at the same market price-wise, sales volumes do not speak the gospel truth. I quoted the Honda and Toyota example because even though both offer almost the same content, market perceptions and demands vary. You might find more owner-driven Accords, but you'll be hard-pressed to find owner-driven Camrys. Hence my statement that even though the Safari is an indirect competitor to the Scorpio price and market-wise, consumer appeal and practicality of these cars adhere to different segments of the mass. The point being that Safari IS more VFM, but the Scorpio manages more sales due to it's market reputation and practicality. You shall find that the logical consumer wants a cheap-to-own and maintain 7-seater MUV, and hence he goes in for the Scorpio. If he wants to indulge himself and doesn't mind the maintenance hassles, then it's the Safari for him. A matter of personal opinion and choice.

Originally Posted by w12

IMo this will happen with more than 99% of vehicles., if repeated enough number of times.

Again, you misunderstood me. Like I said, the Scorpio's brakes fade FASTER than it's competitors. Yes, brake fade happens to ALL cars depending upon tolerances and usage frequency, but it's the relative fade under identical situations between competing cars that brings out the flaws. From the one thousand kms or so (perhaps more/less, can't remember) that I've driven the (old) Scorpio (and a lot more in my old Safari) and a few others, I can say that brake fade IS an issue in the Scorpio. Especially when compared with the competition. And yes, the rear wheels tended to lock prematurely too; But like you said, perhaps your experiences are different..

[FrozEN_BHP]

Ok after reading the stats by veyron I'm still for Safari......... while Scorpio still doesn't manage to be an all-rounder. Its better to have a jack of all(Safari) than a king of one(Scorpio only good performance vice) atleast according to me

[DCEite]

Nothing can match the road presence of Safari. Yesterday saw an all white Safari Dicor with shining alloys and fulll tints. Boy did it look good!

The only worry for me is the inconsistent TATA quality. Atleast M&M is consistent with its cars. If its bad, its bad for all. But TATA believes in selling a different car to each customer...Some are happy, and some are left banging their heads on the wall!

[w 12]

Veyron - "it seems that out of the 500 or so new Scorpios sold so far, about 350-400 units are the DX version"

DX is the Middle version veyron.. did you mean Scorpio 2.6?

Becuase if as you say 70% is base version , you must be meaning scorpio 2.6 and not scorpio 2.6 Dx .

About Honda Accord / Camry - I think accord benefits a lot form the Honda name, which has built a reputation for engineering and quality products. Toyota , although equally good , doesnot have the brand equity honda enjoys in India....

Value proposition - is a dicey game which few players know how to play well.. and a buy decision is based on lot of factors..some real and some preceived..and you are right. at the end of the day customer is the king..