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Old 4th November 2018, 16:01   #5056
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
You're just fine with the engine oil (as you already bought it) and the spirax gear oil (which Maruti also recommends as its oem). You'd have done well to have bought coolant and all other lubes required as well. I'd suggest that you pass on the various Liqui Moly treatments and additives though.
I ve bought and changed the coolant already as soon as I took delivery of this old used 2005 Gypsy around Ayudha Puja day.... I ve also got more coolant as may be needed because I always carry a can of it around, just in case.

All that I have done so far is to change all the gearbox bedding, differential bedding and engine bedding and some clamps etc.

There is still a lot to be done. The vehicle is sitting in the garage undergoing this rejuvenation work.
We have tinkering work to do underneath, and body bolts need to be changed and all that.

We haven’t even begun on the engine flushes etc and oils changes and stuff just as yet.

In 2016 I had indeed used the Xado metal conditioner on the old 2002 Gypsy and run it in, over a few medium/ long drives around the peripheral areas of the city and fast ish runs on the bigger highway roads nearby too.

As per my experience the Xado product really helped to bed down the engine nicely and smoothen its rough edges. Of course there were lots of adjustments made to the timing and the throttle body was nicely cleaned and all that.

The gear oil additives help in reconditioning the moving metal parts, which get worn down with age and poor treatment. They do give a new lease on life to an old beast, like Vitamins do to humans.

I do take your point very seriously about the engine flush and perhaps the engine oil additive itself, which may not be needed right now.

But as I said, I shall consult with my garage owner (who like I said, is also an experienced rallyist and racer and has been fiddling with Gypsys right from the 1980’s.)

The vehicle is in the garage. I expect it to remain there almost all of November undergoing various restoration jobs and one of the reasons for this is that we are still awaiting some of the parts which are yet to arrive.

So, the whole job will be done with Great patience and care.

Basically I want a well restored “beater” car - which I will look after carefully, lavish a lot of affection on, and use mostly for my trips to and from the golf course and once in a while, to office and back, just because for me, being a through-going maverick type of person, it is a chance to “thumb my nose” at all these fancy wheels that most people seem to prefer these days...
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Old 4th November 2018, 16:04   #5057
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Tell you the truth. I love Gypsys. And this one in Dark green and khaki is a long standing dream. Hence this urge to restore. Even at a cost.
And I have bought quite a few of the requisite oils and flushes and metal gel revitalising treatments for the engine and gearbox etc already.
Yes, if I need to change those old oil seals and things, I shall definitely be better off having done so, and perhaps this will enable me to enjoy the old Gypsy more.
The gypsy is a looker, If I had a gypsy, it will be British racing green, Cream wheels and soft top.

You love this thing to bits, that is evident from your shopping list. Let me suggest you something, as per the user manual of gypsy the 80K service will take care of all checks and replacements should you have any concerns.

Fluids and consumables are one thing but the necessary checks done by trained mechanics , no substitute for that. Please do not use any shortcuts, if injectors are dribbling, replace them, in the US they sell a lot of snake oil to DIY mechanics - beware.

@hserus : I think we are talking here about a stingray which has K10B engine.
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Old 4th November 2018, 16:16   #5058
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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The gypsy is a looker, If I had a gypsy, it will be British racing green, Cream wheels and soft top.

You love this thing to bits, that is evident from your shopping list. Let me suggest you something, as per the user manual of gypsy the 80K service will take care of all checks and replacements should you have any concerns.

Fluids and consumables are one thing but the necessary checks done by trained mechanics , no substitute for that. Please do not use any shortcuts, if injectors are dribbling, replace them, in the US they sell a lot of snake oil to DIY mechanics - beware.

@hserus : I think we are talking here about a stingray which has K10B engine.

Ha ha! Yes it is indeed a looker. This one is forest or harvest green which looks quite like the old Landrover Bronze Green. And it has a Khaki hardtop. And lots of character. This one has crossed a lakh kms. Maybe more. There are no records.

It’s a bit like the old old Gavin Lyall book, where the protagonist inherits an old WW2 Mitchell Bomber, with saggy hydraulics, an engine with too many miles on it and a heck of a chequered past but with no records.

But like he says, “She was a maiden once, and we’ll bring her back...”

Saying that, yes absolutely, the garage owner I’m working with, has a bunch of first class mechanics with him, also being quite an expert himself.
I’m going step by step and taking my time. Absolutely no wish to drive this vehicle around unnecessarily until I ve brought it back up to as near scratch as possible.
And Yes. I love the Gypsy. Well. I love all Gypsys. They are superb vehicles. Being mostly mechanical, they have “Soul”, like a Trusty Steed.
As of now, the Gypsy is my personal mid life (mid/late 40’s) crisis manager.
I call it my “Spitfire”.

Last edited by shankar.balan : 4th November 2018 at 16:20.
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Old 4th November 2018, 16:43   #5059
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Kosfactor View Post
You love this thing to bits, that is evident from your shopping list. Let me suggest you something, as per the user manual of gypsy the 80K service will take care of all checks and replacements should you have any concerns.

Fluids and consumables are one thing but the necessary checks done by trained mechanics , no substitute for that. Please do not use any shortcuts, if injectors are dribbling, replace them, in the US they sell a lot of snake oil to DIY mechanics - beware.

@hserus : I think we are talking here about a stingray which has K10B engine.
This is good advice. As for the Stingray - yes, 0w20 for that as you say.
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Old 4th November 2018, 18:06   #5060
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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isn't wagonR supposed to run on 0W20 ?

The picture you have posted appears to be a different grade, please check! The MGO from maruti should cost less than 1000INR .
The waggys produced after 2015 which have the Knxt engine take 0w20 (when AMT was introduced) for better efficiency. The older ones with K10 take 5w30.

ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-screenshot_20181104175559.png

Although both engines are 95% same!

Plus I never trust MGO. That's the worst oil to put in your car and if you demand synthetic, then they will charge you with skyrocketing prices. I prefer servicing from local FNG and I have learnt the service manual by heart.

PS. Always bargain while buying Synthetic engine oil, although they come with a big price tag, but you can buy them at almost or even less than half the MRP.

I have always bought Mobil 1 0w40 from authorised dealers for Rs.2800 while it has a sticker price of Rs.4800 for my Dzire petrol.
This 5w30 was listed for Rs.3000, I bought it for Rs.1350.

Also, most modern cars produced after 2010 will happily take 5w30 oil and chug along the roads.
It's universal. Even Multijet diesels love it.

Last edited by Rshrey22 : 4th November 2018 at 18:08.
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Old 7th November 2018, 00:11   #5061
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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I have always bought Mobil 1 0w40 from authorised dealers for Rs.2800 while it has a sticker price of Rs.4800 for my Dzire petrol.
Either you last bought it possibly a couple of years ago or you are lucky to get it so cheap. Three days ago I got my supply of the same variant from my old and trusted lube oil seller. I had to spend Rs 3800, though the price on the can showed it as high to be Rs 5600/-.
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Old 7th November 2018, 00:32   #5062
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Either you last bought it possibly a couple of years ago or you are lucky to get it so cheap. Three days ago I got my supply of the same variant from my old and trusted lube oil seller. I had to spend Rs 3800, though the price on the can showed it as high to be Rs 5600/-.
I still have the can lying around, it was of new stock, you can see the label and refer. Bought it in june I guess, you can see my earlier post in this thread regarding the same using the search tool.

My apologies for not mentioning the correct sticker price.
Attached Thumbnails
ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-20180722_15102001.jpg  

ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-20180722_15103601.jpg  


Last edited by Rshrey22 : 7th November 2018 at 00:34.
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Old 7th November 2018, 05:00   #5063
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

@kosfactor
@hserus

Checked on whether or not to “ease it in” by using standard mineral oil. Garage Boss said not to worry too much - he did a compression test and the readings aren’t too bad for an old gypsy. 170-180 range across all 4 cylinders.
However he will inspect the engine and flush out carbon deposits and stuff and take a view before doing the XADO treatment and engine oil change.
Let’s see...
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Old 7th November 2018, 06:20   #5064
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
@kosfactor
@hserus

Checked on whether or not to “ease it in” by using standard mineral oil. Garage Boss said not to worry too much - he did a compression test and the readings aren’t too bad for an old gypsy. 170-180 range across all 4 cylinders.
However he will inspect the engine and flush out carbon deposits and stuff and take a view before doing the XADO treatment and engine oil change.
Let’s see...
Clean out the engine oil by all means - the compression test done is a good sign. Leave the additives alone for one or two fills and just fill with that hx7 shell semi synthetic I told you about.

Do the scheduled service required as well.

Then take it on a few highway runs of 3-4 hours one way. Much better medicine for your Gypsy than all kinds of additive treatments.
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Old 7th November 2018, 06:26   #5065
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Clean out the engine oil by all means - the compression test done is a good sign. Leave the additives alone for one or two fills and just fill with that hx7 shell semi synthetic I told you about.

Do the scheduled service required as well.

Then take it on a few highway runs of 3-4 hours one way. Much better medicine for your Gypsy than all kinds of additive treatments.
Like old muscles which need a workout.
Actually what we are doing now is a full servicing. Starting with a clean slate.
Better.

It’s slow work but better done with care than otherwise.
Once they open the engine to peer in, we’ll see the condition of the “carbonisation”. And clean the throttle body thoroughly as well as clean out the blackened engine oil (looking at the dipstick the oil is indeed black) which means it needs a healthy fresh dose of clean oil.

We are also draining both the main and 4WD gearboxes as well as the front and rear differential oils and putting in the Shell Spirax SAE80-90 gear oil. So as to give the Gypsy a fresh start in many respects. I had bought 6 litres of these oils, which should be enough as per the workshop manual recommendation. Plus we are adding the “smoothening agent” - Xado Paste for the 4WD gearbox and Liquimoly for the main gearbox. So as to help lubricate the systems better.

Let me talk to the garage today and see if indeed we can put in some semi synth instead of fully synth.
Since the garage owner is a rallyist, he does know about these Gypsys. And I ve already bought the synth oil and Xado metal conditioner additive.
So I ll take a view after discussion.
Attached Thumbnails
ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-1c0cf5599f564b8291eaac255ddf8a85.jpeg  


Last edited by shankar.balan : 7th November 2018 at 06:31.
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Old 7th November 2018, 11:09   #5066
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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I still have the can lying around, it was of new stock, you can see the label and refer. Bought it in june I guess, you can see my earlier post in this thread regarding the same using the search tool.
As I said, I bought the same just few days ago, paying Rs 3800/-. Seems I have to bargain hard on my next purchase.

Last edited by rahul4640 : 7th November 2018 at 11:10.
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Old 7th November 2018, 20:16   #5067
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

@Hserus: @Kosfactor:
So today afternoon we carefully drained away all the gear oil from the front differential, rear differential, small 4WD gearbox, main gearbox and replaced the oils completely with Shell Spirax oil. What came out of the gearboxes and the differentials,was rather dirty and black I must say!
We added XADO Gear Revitalising Gel to the Small 4WD gear box. 20gms to a litre of oil.
And three tubes of Liquimoly Gear Oil Additive to the main gear box.

Then we added Liquimoly Engine Flush to the existing Engine oil and ran the engine for 15 - 20 minutes to circulate it solidly.
and then drained the engine completely of all the oil. The engine flush seems to have removed all the muck from the engine and the drain out was also nice and black.

Then, we reloaded the engine with Shell Helix Fully Synthetic oil and topped it up with XADO 1st Stage Engine revitalising compound. This was added to the engine oil while pouring it in.

We then ran the engine for another 20 minutes on idle to allow the oils to circulate nicely.

Believe me, there was a very clear difference in the overall engine note and the rough edges were noticeably smoothened almost immediately, with this treatment.

No nasty leaks etc so far, so I do believe the engine was basically in decent shape or otherwise it is a very strong engine and has stood up to the last 13 years of abuse remarkably well.

We ve left the Gypsy to chill overnight and tomorrow morning, we’ll observe if there are any drops of oil which may indicate any leaks and things. But as of now there are none.

If all goes well, I will run the Gypsy for some 100 odd kms as soon as possible to see how it behaves and how much the noise factor has changed/ altered and how much it has smoothened out.

The Garage owner/ rallyist also seemed very pleased with the overall result so far, of all this treatment.
And we are hoping that with all this gentle care, we will resurrect the Gypsy to where it ideally ought to be, in terms of engine and gearbox/ differential behaviour.

Basically while we do tend to think that some of these “additives” and “treatments” are indeed “Snake Oil” type remedies, in this case, I can clearly see and hear that they seem to have made a difference atleast as far as the engine sound and other things are concerned.

I’m planning to take temporary delivery tomorrow and use the Gypsy tomorrow and Friday for a bit.

I ll update again after that on whether there is a difference when I drive it about....
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Old 7th November 2018, 20:38   #5068
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Oh good But did you compare filling with shell helix ultra vs shell plus additive? Just curious how you figured that the additive helped.

Put thousands of miles on your new ride, congratulations.
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Old 7th November 2018, 20:47   #5069
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Oh good But did you compare filling with shell helix ultra vs shell plus additive? Just curious how you figured that the additive helped.

Put thousands of miles on your new ride, congratulations.
You see, this additive is actually a metal coat agent, which helps to resurrect moving parts inside the engine. I did use it in 2016 when I bought my old 2002 White Gypsy and it certainly helped in the “smoothening’ journey.

In this 2005 Green Gypsy, it seems to have brought down the noise levels considerably. Of course, working in conjunction with the Gearbox additives as well. Now the Gypsy more or less sounds like it ought to.

It certainly has to “run in” and with more and more usage, as per the literature, it tends to “bed down” much better.

I have to run the Gypsy for many more kilometres to enjoy the effect while driving, for sure.

But I am quite sure that these measures taken today have indeed gone a long way in making the poor old Gypsy’s engine feel wanted and more cared for than ever before...

Last edited by shankar.balan : 7th November 2018 at 20:48.
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Old 7th November 2018, 21:43   #5070
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

I know what it is - Liqui Moly has something similar called Cera Tec which is a ceramic rather than a metal coating.

Back in the day (like with tractor engined Jeeps and Ambys) an engine would have quite loose tolerances and a ton of metal scuff would come out in the first engine oil fill. That's the history behind the "first fill with mineral oil, then change oil at 5000 km" - it'd mop up the scuff and discard it.

Modern engines (yes, even the now ancient MPFI, certainly anything at all Japanese designed in the past 3 decades) never did have all that much of an issue with scuffing. Their tolerance levels are in microns so that a thin coat of metal additive would be a few microns more. Forget "bedding down" the engine - it passed a compression test, so you're just plain good as it stands.

All the running in and bedding down period for your engine was when it was brand new - or has it been rebuilt recently? Just don't redline your engine, shift gears at sensible intervals of 1500-2000 or so RPM and you're fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
You see, this additive is actually a metal coat agent, which helps to resurrect moving parts inside the engine. I did use it in 2016 when I bought my old 2002 White Gypsy and it certainly helped in the “smoothening’ journey.

In this 2005 Green Gypsy, it seems to have brought down the noise levels considerably. Of course, working in conjunction with the Gearbox additives as well. Now the Gypsy more or less sounds like it ought to.

It certainly has to “run in” and with more and more usage, as per the literature, it tends to “bed down” much better.

I have to run the Gypsy for many more kilometres to enjoy the effect while driving, for sure.

But I am quite sure that these measures taken today have indeed gone a long way in making the poor old Gypsy’s engine feel wanted and more cared for than ever before...
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