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Old 7th November 2018, 22:03   #5071
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
I know what it is - Liqui Moly has something similar called Cera Tec which is a ceramic rather than a metal coating.

Back in the day (like with tractor engined Jeeps and Ambys) an engine would have quite loose tolerances and a ton of metal scuff would come out in the first engine oil fill. That's the history behind the "first fill with mineral oil, then change oil at 5000 km" - it'd mop up the scuff and discard it.

Modern engines (yes, even the now ancient MPFI, certainly anything at all Japanese designed in the past 3 decades) never did have all that much of an issue with scuffing. Their tolerance levels are in microns so that a thin coat of metal additive would be a few microns more. Forget "bedding down" the engine - it passed a compression test, so you're just plain good as it stands.

All the running in and bedding down period for your engine was when it was brand new - or has it been rebuilt recently? Just don't redline your engine, shift gears at sensible intervals of 1500-2000 or so RPM and you're fine.

The thing is, there is absolutely ZERO history with this engine. Who knows what succession of madmen drove it and didn’t care to follow any of the recommended manufacturers instructions and/ or service intervals and maintenance.
It was a noisy engine. I had to spend time doing work on the Timing. The throttle body needed a bit of cleaning. But the valves and the insides of the engine seem nice post today’s inspections.
Saying that, it was noisy.
But now with the addition of these things and the current levels of care being lavished upon the engine, it definitely feels and sounds better than it did before.


BTW: I ve also got a bottle of Ceratec. I intend using that in my 7 year old Yeti at the time of its next oil change. Just to kind of “overcompensate” and ensure continued smoothness.

Last edited by shankar.balan : 7th November 2018 at 22:05.
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Old 7th November 2018, 22:08   #5072
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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You see, this additive is actually a metal coat agent, which helps to resurrect moving parts inside the engine. I did use it in 2016 when I bought my old 2002 White Gypsy and it certainly helped in the “smoothening’ journey.

In this 2005 Green Gypsy, it seems to have brought down the noise levels considerably. Of course, working in conjunction with the Gearbox additives as well. Now the Gypsy more or less sounds like it ought to.

It certainly has to “run in” and with more and more usage, as per the literature, it tends to “bed down” much better.

I have to run the Gypsy for many more kilometres to enjoy the effect while driving, for sure.

But I am quite sure that these measures taken today have indeed gone a long way in making the poor old Gypsy’s engine feel wanted and more cared for than ever before...
This is going very well now, you are a happy man . Congratulations!

The additives are there to help the mechanic, they make the engine super smooth for a while, I know this because one of my friends was a former FNG guy.

Okay, just to make things easy, get all the top to-do items done with your mechanic in one shot and then drive the vehicle around for the next six months without messing around with it.

The result should be a Gypsy that needs to be looked after just as much as a regular new vehicle, No more.
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Old 7th November 2018, 22:45   #5073
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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The additives are there to help the mechanic, they make the engine super smooth for a while, I know this because one of my friends was a former FNG guy.

Okay, just to make things easy, get all the top to-do items done with your mechanic in one shot and then drive the vehicle around for the next six months without messing around with it.

The result should be a Gypsy that needs to be looked after just as much as a regular new vehicle, No more.
Very very good advice. Please take it, @shankar_balan

The super smooth "FOR A WHILE" needs to be emphasised. Afterwards it might not be that good an idea. FNGs that stock additives love to sell them, very high margin items, and superficially very effective.

As a related / similar example - try detailing an old car with fading paint and you might end up with something that initially looks shiny but then ends up worse as the detailing didn't do much good to what was left of the clear coat. In such older cars, a wash with a pressure washer and soft water, and a good quality wax is a much better treatment. The same thing with no additives and just regular changes with a good oil.

I realize that with this Gypsy all this is water under the bridge, but as you're on your second Gypsy, you might end up with another. Or maybe a MM540 next time, who knows.
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Old 8th November 2018, 02:14   #5074
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Maybe he'll be lucky, as I was when I flushed and added fully synthetic oil in my 1.45L run Fiat Palio, as documented earlier in this thread. I have run it 6k kms after the oil change and apart from it sipping 1/2 a litre of oil, there have been no leaks or any other issues. Plus my car sees high RPMs all the time and many short trips( 3-4kms) because I live in the hills and it used to need a topup with mineral oil as well. I hadn't used any additive but the car has been running a lot smoothly and silently than before, and much close to how it used to be earlier.
Even I had taken this decision knowing that I might need to replace engine seals etc. but I was ready for it as the engine needs a bit of an overhaul as it has lost some power over it's 16yrs of usage, but thankfully, I haven't needed to open up anything yet.
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Old 8th November 2018, 04:36   #5075
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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This is going very well now, you are a happy man . Congratulations!

The additives are there to help the mechanic, they make the engine super smooth for a while, I know this because one of my friends was a former FNG guy.

Okay, just to make things easy, get all the top to-do items done with your mechanic in one shot and then drive the vehicle around for the next six months without messing around with it.

The result should be a Gypsy that needs to be looked after just as much as a regular new vehicle, No more.

@Kosfactor: Yes. The whole idea was to bring the vehicle back to a “certain point” of “hygiene standard” in terms of maintenance levels and take it into the normal care patterns thereafter. So in this first round of servicing and clearing up, I wanted to bring it to a “clean slate” level, and then start building its “care history” from here on, while using it and enjoying it. So we checked and changed the bearings where needed, the cooling fan where one blade was broken, flushed the radiator which had dirty water in it instead of coolant and so on. Hope fully from here onwards, it should be an easier run.

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
Very very good advice. Please take it, @shankar_balan

The super smooth "FOR A WHILE" needs to be emphasised. Afterwards it might not be that good an idea. FNGs that stock additives love to sell them, very high margin items, and superficially very effective.

As a related / similar example - try detailing an old car with fading paint and you might end up with something that initially looks shiny but then ends up worse as the detailing didn't do much good to what was left of the clear coat. In such older cars, a wash with a pressure washer and soft water, and a good quality wax is a much better treatment. The same thing with no additives and just regular changes with a good oil.

I realize that with this Gypsy all this is water under the bridge, but as you're on your second Gypsy, you might end up with another. Or maybe a MM540 next time, who knows.
@hserus: In point of fact this is the 4th Gypsy I ve had over the last 21 years. The first two were “Primary vehicles” and these last two (2016 onwards), were to help me re-live my old days as “Project Vehicles” and in some sense “Weekend beater cars”. The idea was to have a mechanically and otherwise “sound” “no frills” vehicle to use and enjoy and hold on to, for a few years, before one becomes way too old and decrepit to enjoy such pursuits. But yes, as I said above, the idea was to bring the poor abused beast up to a certain “comfort” zone level and then use it as one normally would, by following all the standard manufacturer schedules and so on.
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Old 8th November 2018, 23:42   #5076
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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The Mobil 1 ESP oil above is an ACEA C2/C3 low viscosity mid SAPS content rated oil - designed for European emissions standards in both petrol and diesel vehicles. Conforms to the latest VW diesel spec 507.00 which many other oils (Shell Helix Ultra etc) don't confirm to - those are at most the older diesel spec VW 505 00. Quite a good oil if you're driving any of the newer Germans.
But you see the oil pictured above is not the ESP formula. That has green on the package and something I'm going to try in my SX4 thats done 1.32L kms.
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Old 9th November 2018, 00:15   #5077
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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But you see the oil pictured above is not the ESP formula. That has green on the package and something I'm going to try in my SX4 thats done 1.32L kms.
You should use 40 grade oil in your car considering it has high mileage. The thicker oil compensates for weared components. Some mechanics even recommend 50 grade oil for high mileage cars but I feel that's an overkill.

My suggestion is to go with Mobil 1 0W40 if you really want to go synthetic at this mileage.
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Old 9th November 2018, 07:13   #5078
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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But you see the oil pictured above is not the ESP formula. That has green on the package and something I'm going to try in my SX4 thats done 1.32L kms.
Yeah I was looking at another thread that featured the Mobil ESP. For a high mileage SX4 it entirely depends on the condition of the engine, you might not need high weight oils either. Any 5w40 A3/B4 should do - so pick a good one. The Mobil you picked is just fine.
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Old 11th November 2018, 14:58   #5079
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Found something strange, while the bottle mentions api SN/CF rating, the website says api SL/CF. What's up with this Shell HX8. Though it performed excellently in my car but why different grades? And why so cheap?
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Old 11th November 2018, 19:48   #5080
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Found something strange, while the bottle mentions api SN/CF rating, the website says api SL/CF. What's up with this Shell HX8. Though it performed excellently in my car but why different grades? And why so cheap?
Group 3 synthetics are quite cheap. Their premium brand is Shell Helix Ultra which is rather costlier.

This is an old brand so it is reasonable that it has upgraded it's standards over the years as new API standards are introduced. The website might not be completely up to date.
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Old 13th November 2018, 15:02   #5081
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Group 3 synthetics are quite cheap. Their premium brand is Shell Helix Ultra which is rather costlier.
Hey hserus,

Noob question - what are Group 3 synthetics? What quality / attribute about them makes them so cheap?

I was really confused between Shell Helix Ultra and HX-8 during my previous oil change, because other than the 5w40 vs 5w30 factor, there doesn't seem to be any noticeable difference in them.
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Old 13th November 2018, 15:20   #5082
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Hey hserus,

Noob question - what are Group 3 synthetics? What quality / attribute about them makes them so cheap?

I was really confused between Shell Helix Ultra and HX-8 during my previous oil change, because other than the 5w40 vs 5w30 factor, there doesn't seem to be any noticeable difference in them.
Read this

https://blog.amsoil.com/are-all-synt...ii-vs-iv-vs-v/

For light use in regular cars there won't be a very discernible difference because it is a combination of manufacturing process + additive package.

If you are in the habit of putting thousands of miles on your car, SUV or commercial vehicle some of this becomes rather more important.
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Old 13th November 2018, 21:22   #5083
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Found something strange, while the bottle mentions api SN/CF rating, the website says api SL/CF. What's up with this Shell HX8. Though it performed excellently in my car but why different grades? And why so cheap?
Please check Shell India's website; it does mention Helix HX-8 to be SN/CF. You're probably looking at Shell's global website that may not be applicable for India or the global site has not yet been updated.

https://www.shell.in/motorists/oils-...ic-5-w-30.html

As for the pricing, it is much more than sum total of cost of the ingredients. Certain products are introduced in the emerging markets so that the cost competitiveness is maintained. The company in most cases will not discount their flagship product (though the retailers may do so).

Helix Ultra is their top tier synthetic that is also OEM recommended oil (5W-40 not 5W-30) for Ferrari Maserati all over the world (except North America where Helix is not marketed). There will be some formulation differences (all proprietary information) and licensing fee involved (the pack carries Ferrari logo). In addition, companies like to maintain certain pricing differential to differentiate their halo products.

Last edited by Vikram Arya : 13th November 2018 at 21:27.
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Old 20th November 2018, 01:42   #5084
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Bumping this thread,

Shell Helix Ultra 550041109 5W-40 API SN Fully Synthetic Car Engine Oil (4 L) is available for Rs2372 (https://www.amazon.in/dp/B00QK6PXPK)

I'd bought this for Rs2700 a few months ago for my Estilo F10D so anyone wanting to buy could purchase now. Also Maruti recommends 5W-30 apparently for the Estilo so am wondering if stocking up on this would be worthwhile?

Motul 4100 Power 5W-30 API SM/CF Technosynthese Semi Synthetic Motor Oil for Petrol,Diesel, CNG & LPG Cars (4 L) for Rs1406 https://www.amazon.in/dp/B01LYGFOIV

Edit: never mind, it is a semi synthetic oil so I will have to go through the switch back from synthetic again. The price gap is quite high, nearly double!

Last edited by digitalnirvana : 20th November 2018 at 01:47.
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Old 20th November 2018, 02:25   #5085
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Motul 4100 Power 5W-30 API SM/CF Technosynthese Semi Synthetic Motor Oil for Petrol,Diesel, CNG & LPG Cars (4 L) for Rs1406 https://www.amazon.in/dp/B01LYGFOIV

Edit: never mind, it is a semi synthetic oil so I will have to go through the switch back from synthetic again. The price gap is quite high, nearly double!
Go with Shell helix HX-8 5w30, it's rated API-SN, it's synthetic, and available for lesser price in market. I bought it for Rs.1350/-. (Refer my earlier posts). It did wonders to my waggy!

Show your car some synthetic goodness .

Last edited by Rshrey22 : 20th November 2018 at 02:27.
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