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Old 28th January 2019, 11:15   #5176
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
Do you know you can get Shell HX8 0w20? And that too an MGO?

https://www.amazon.in/Shell-Helix-HX.../dp/B075MP573F
That is a discontinued oil. I enquired about it to the nearby automotive parts shop, they told me shell does not make 0w20 anymore.

Maruti now uses Mobil 1 0w20 for synthetic and Servo 0w20 for cheaper options.
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Last edited by Rshrey22 : 28th January 2019 at 11:18.
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Old 28th January 2019, 11:18   #5177
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Rshrey22 View Post
That is a discontinued oil. I enquired about it to the nearby automotive parts shop, they told me shell does not make 0w20 anymore.

Maruti now uses Mobil 1 0w20.
That is an excellent oil. I'd say go right ahead and use it.
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Old 28th January 2019, 11:34   #5178
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Black smoke is unburnt diesel fuel in the exhaust.

The usual other causes are not very likely on a brand new vehicle.
You have not understood the Query, LC when bought new has much less black smoke irrespective of the fuel from where you fill but after service (oil change) there is visible Black smoke. I have checked this on 2 of these.

Are you absolutely sure that Engine oil getting burnt won't ever produce black smoke? and Quality of engine oil has nothing to do with this?
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Old 28th January 2019, 11:50   #5179
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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You have not understood the Query, LC when bought new has much less black smoke irrespective of the fuel from where you fill but after service (oil change) there is visible Black smoke. I have checked this on 2 of these.

Are you absolutely sure that Engine oil getting burnt won't ever produce black smoke? and Quality of engine oil has nothing to do with this?
Who knows, maybe a different grade than expected of oil might lead to inefficient fuel burn.

What is the recommended oil grade from your manual and what is Toyota filling?
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Old 28th January 2019, 14:11   #5180
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Who knows, maybe a different grade than expected of oil might lead to inefficient fuel burn.

What is the recommended oil grade from your manual and what is Toyota filling?

This is what Toyota uses, Synthetic costs about 775 per Ltr and regular one 325 per Ltr. Apparently they have shifted to 5W30 in case of normal oils whereas they use 5W40 in case of Synthetic.
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Old 28th January 2019, 14:59   #5181
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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This is what Toyota uses, Synthetic costs about 775 per Ltr and regular one 325 per Ltr. Apparently they have shifted to 5W30 in case of normal oils whereas they use 5W40 in case of Synthetic.
Both are the wrong choice of oil for a Landcruiser is what I suspect. What does your manual for the vehicle say? Or there should be a sticker on top of the oil sump saying xWy oil only.

Given this is a 4.5 liter diesel you could just use a good heavy duty diesel engine oil and get much better results than these two toyota specced oils, which are anyway super old wrt technology (API SM/CF).
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Old 28th January 2019, 15:58   #5182
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post

Given this is a 4.5 liter diesel you could just use a good heavy duty diesel engine oil and get much better results than these two toyota specced oils, which are anyway super old wrt technology (API SM/CF).
Yeah seriously! Just put something like Mobil Delvac and forget about it! When it comes large diesels like this with low power outputs, most oils do suffice.
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Old 28th January 2019, 16:36   #5183
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Yeah seriously! Just put something like Mobil Delvac and forget about it! When it comes large diesels like this with low power outputs, most oils do suffice.
Look, it is a brand new Landcruiser and if he uses other oils, TKM might protest. So let us do a bit of research on the grade they actually specify vs the grade TKM seems to be randomly filling, before he buys other oils.
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Old 28th January 2019, 17:21   #5184
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Both are the wrong choice of oil for a Landcruiser is what I suspect.
.
What makes you write that both these grades are wrong?

Manual mentions 5W30, for Colder climates like USA, Canada they recommend 0W20. So I am not sure if choosing 5W40 can be the reason for smoke?

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
TKM might protest. So let us do a bit of research on the grade they actually specify vs the grade TKM seems to be randomly filling, before he buys other oils.
Dealers don’t fill randomly. They go with what TKM tells them. But it will be interesting to ask them the reasons of using 5W40 in synthetic against 5W30 in normal. Wish Toyota guys were more helpful and they could have shared what did they originally filled when shipped from Japan
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Old 28th January 2019, 17:26   #5185
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Dealers don’t fill randomly. They go with what TKM tells them. But it will be interesting to ask them the reasons of using 5W40 in synthetic against 5W30 in normal. Wish Toyota guys were more helpful and they could have shared what did they originally filled when shipped from Japan
So you need at least API CF4 or ACEA B1 in that 5w30

I'd say just go for any 5w30 or 5w40 CI4+ onwards - Mobil Delvac 1 or Amsoil have 5w40 CK4 (which is backwards compatible to CF4) so should be fine.

What they are giving you is a low viscosity and HTHS but obsolete spec ACEA B1 / API CF4, but for such a powerful engine and using such crap fuel it is a matter of time before your engine starts hating on such oil. And besides the oil they're filling in India is made in India under license from Idemitsu, so who knows whether the manufacturing quality is a little iffy compared to Japanese oils.

Note - from the API specs -

ACEA A1/B1 Category is removed with the ACEA 2016 Oil Sequences. From ACEA 2012: Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines specifically designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a high temperature / high shear rate viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s for xW/20 and 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s for all other viscosity grades. These oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

So the alternative is use a good ACEA A5/B5 (which is what updates A1/B1) in 5w30, plenty of those available too. Mobil 1 ESP for example, or Amsoil Signature 5w30.
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Old 28th January 2019, 18:45   #5186
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Now my question is related to the oils. What I have observed in the new LC, which has not yet being serviced (Less then 5000 Km) does not throw that kind of black smoke as the similar lower mileage (like 10-15 K) ones but serviced do. As some of you guys might be aware, Toyota recommends fresh engine oil ( both mineral/ synthetic) after every 5000 Km on LC-200 (I think more then engine longevity it must have to do with oil drinking habits of LC)

So is it possible that LC burns engine oil and the Quality of the oil they use in India is different from what Toyota uses in Japan and that oil shows up as a black smoke? Anyway to get the same Japanese oil in India? Or am I just wrong with all these assumptions?
Normally black smoke from a car, especially a diesel, is due to incomplete combustion of fuel either due to too rich a mixture (unlikely with EFI unless a sensor is busted) or a clogged air filter.

Oil burning has two distinct characteristics i.e. whitish smoke and dropping oil levels. A slight drop in oil level when the engine is new and being run-in say <2-5K kms depending on the engine is acceptable. You need to keep an eye on the oil level to be absolutely sure.

I believe the quality of Toyota OEM oil should be just as good as its equivalent in Japan. TKM would take pains to ensure that suppliers meet or exceed their standards.

As for the oil stick to Toyota's mineral (5W-30) or synthetic (5W-40) only during the warranty. Once you have completed the running and it is due for the first service you could treat it to Toyota's 5W-40 synthetic assuming this grade of oil is specified in the manual. As you would probably know from your Innova ownership experience TKM's service/labor and consumable part charges are quite reasonable.
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Old 28th January 2019, 19:59   #5187
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
So you need at least API CF4 or ACEA B1 in that 5w30
What they are giving you is a low viscosity and HTHS but obsolete spec ACEA B1 / API CF4
Thanks, so where do you read these characters on the labels I posted?


Quote:
made in India under license from Idemitsu, so who knows whether the manufacturing quality is a little iffy compared to Japanese oils.
But Toyota won't let me order Japanese oil and I cannot use my own oil. Perhaps, I can ask them to charge for the oil and keep that Oil for some other cars and instead use my own Oil on LC. Which brand and exact type should I buy in 5W30 ? Like these - Mobil 1 ESP for example, or Amsoil Signature 5w30 you suggested or are their some more premium options?

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Normally black smoke from a car
It's more of a norm with all LC-200. The posts by Shivjeet explains more. I have observed same in Demo and Company cars. So nothing to do with a particular Car.

Quote:
I believe the quality of Toyota OEM oil should be just as good as its equivalent in Japan. TKM would take pains to ensure that suppliers meet or exceed their standards.
For some reasons, call it whatever but I don't trust them fully. No reasons or anything to prove otherwise.

Quote:
As for the oil stick to Toyota's mineral (5W-30) or synthetic (5W-40) only during the warranty. Once you have completed the running and it is due for the first service you could treat it to Toyota's 5W-40 synthetic assuming this grade of oil is specified in the manual
I have asked Service guy to check on availability of Synthetic 5W-30 as 5W-40 is no where mentioned on the manual or Internet.
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Last edited by Turbanator : 28th January 2019 at 20:04.
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:25   #5188
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
Cross posting from this thread regarding Black Smoke on New LC-200.
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post4069482 (Toyota launches updated Land Cruiser 200 at 1.29 crore)

Now my question is related to the oils. What I have observed in the new LC, which has not yet being serviced (Less then 5000 Km) does not throw that kind of black smoke as the similar lower mileage (like 10-15 K) ones but serviced do. As some of you guys might be aware, Toyota recommends fresh engine oil ( both mineral/ synthetic) after every 5000 Km on LC-200 (I think more then engine longevity it must have to do with oil drinking habits of LC)

So is it possible that LC burns engine oil and the Quality of the oil they use in India is different from what Toyota uses in Japan and that oil shows up as a black smoke? Anyway to get the same Japanese oil in India? Or am I just wrong with all these assumptions?
Raj,

I can say with almost 100% certainty that this issue has nothing whatsoever to do with the engine oil being used at the shop. The specifications of the oil used by the shop are quite okay in view of the fact that this is an old engine introduced by Toyota in 2007. You should be fine as long as the engine oil is 5W-30/40 and meets the API CF/CF-4 specs.

Japanese manufacturers use API or JASO specifications, therefore, ACEA specs are not relevant here as these are European specs. One of the contributors had suggested using Mobil Delvac which is a bad idea. Mobil Delvac is a heavy duty diesel engine oil meant for commercial vehicles and has a different chemistry than what is required by a passenger class diesel engines.

As has already been mention by the previous contributors; black smoke is almost always caused by unburnt diesel or excessive diesel injected on account of incorrect calibration.

If the engine is burning oil it will give off white/blue smoke (remember the old two-stroke engines back in the day that would require 2T mixing with the gasoline and the old two-stroke autos in Delhi belching that acrid blue smoke..)

This seems to an issue of excess fuel being injected in the engine. It could be a dirty air filter (in which case extra fuel is being sucked in) or a case of injectors going bad (somewhat unlikely as the vehicle is new). Toyota’s 1VD-FTV engine is a twin turbo common rail diesel with variable vane geometry turbocharger. This was introduced in 2007 so its already a relatively old engine. The injection pressure in a CRDI engine is close to 40,000 psi. Even a small amount of adulteration in the fuel can act like sandpaper in the injector nozzles and can cause havoc with the fuel calibration though the ECU is likely to correct it somewhat, however, in the long run, the injectors would have to be replaced.

Some turbocharged engines also inject extra fuel into the engine when no boost is detected, and the turbo is just spooling up and that unburned non-atomized diesel comes out as black smoke.

200 series LC has so much new-fangled electronics that it could be a whole host of other things as well however the dealer should be able to diagnose the problem; if not escalate it. TMC should be able to give you a satisfactory explanation in case this is nothing to worry about.

It is surprising that Toyota which is world's 1st/2nd (depending on the particular quarter's numbers) largest automotive manufacturer is still soldiering on with an 11 years old engine but maybe their inclination to invest in newer IC engine technology is not that great in light of the public statement by their chairman last year that Toyota will stop producing IC engines by 2040. Another proof is the new Toyota Supra that will be powered by the BMW inline six that does the duty on 340 xi and a couple of 5 series cars. This would have been unthinkable even five years ago. We should get ready to welcome the Hybrid LC in a few years. The fact is that across the board almost all the automotive majors have publicly stated that they would not be making future investments in new diesel drive trains (thanks to dieselgate by VW).

In case it gives you any comfort I’ll just mention that on this Toyota 4.6 ltr. V-8 diesel, this seems to be a fairly common problem; you may want to check Australian/South African LC forums.

Good luck.
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:54   #5189
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Thanks, so where do you read these characters on the labels I posted?.
That slide with the technical specs you posted has it on the bottom line.

I will agree with Vikram that poor quality fuel is a possibility so try using the cleanest fuel we have available here - Reliance - Essar - Shell normal - Shell V Power. Failing that please fill from known BP pumps.

Low viscosity 5w30 works great for a relatively colder country for such big engines. Indeed in the USA they use 0w20. But worldwide older Land Cruisers had been using much thicker grades 15w40 and such in hot climates.

Though in this case alone check for bad fuel first before changing oils.
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Old 29th January 2019, 07:44   #5190
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Posted some hours later so this is back to back.

Do note that page from the manual that you posted. 15w40 is perfectly acceptable for the hot temperatures we have in India, unless of course you're taking this vehicle to Ladakh in mid winter.

Given the support for CF4 your vehicle would be perfectly happy on a more recent spec of heavy duty diesel oil (Shell Rimula R4, HP Milcy Turbotech etc that are CI4+, or Amsoil / Triax CK4+ off Amazon.

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
That slide with the technical specs you posted has it on the bottom line.

I will agree with Vikram that poor quality fuel is a possibility so try using the cleanest fuel we have available here - Reliance - Essar - Shell normal - Shell V Power. Failing that please fill from known BP pumps.

Low viscosity 5w30 works great for a relatively colder country for such big engines. Indeed in the USA they use 0w20. But worldwide older Land Cruisers had been using much thicker grades 15w40 and such in hot climates.

Though in this case alone check for bad fuel first before changing oils.
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