[MonsterPatrol]

Originally Posted by JayKis

But if you question Rossi, they tend to first do the character assassination of the questioner and his favourite rider. A pattern observed along the years.
.

Proved true through this thread. Also through some inappropriate pictures posted by a senior member and later removed lacking decency.

[BlackPearl]

Originally Posted by JayKis

2002 Honda, 2003 Honda, 2004 Honda,
2005 Yamaha
2006 Honda,
2007 Ducati,
2008 Yamaha, 2009 Yamaha, 2010 Yamaha,
2011 Honda, 2012 Honda, 2013 Honda, 2014 Honda


So the pattern is obvious isnt it? Can a rider win without technology? The answer lies in the pattern. So the question is did Rossi (any racer for that matter) actually win the championship or was it the bike? The question to ponder.

But what about the rider giving inputs to the team to develop the bike that becomes unbeatable? Who should get the accolades for that? And what should be the explanation behind Rossi moving to an inferior bike in 2005 and win the very first race although the RC211V was unbeatable just a few months back? I am a fan of Rossi but as Sheel has mentioned, I too have tremendous respect for other riders. I feel credit must be given where it is due. Some bhpians have put demeaning comments about Rossi as well as other riders, IMHO we should be refraining from such discussions. Healthy discussion will go a long way

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by Parth46

<Slow clap, steadily rising into a deafening crescendo>

I think you were lucky enough to be privy to some "insider" motoGP info that us mere mortals can only dream of. Were you a part of the factory development teams by any chance? Still, let me play along:

I like this. This is what fanboys like you are capable of - Charachter assassination. Try your level best but would have no effect

This is what Kenny Roberts Jr (a guy who beat Rossi in 2000 on a 500 to win the championship). A guy who is part of the factory development teams and has privy information says

"Valentino has had just a an exceptional gift when it comes to being on the right bike at the right time. Think about it: when we were on 500s we had the 17 inch tire. That tire was kind of the equalizer to a degree, and with it, I won the world title, that's a big part of why Suzuki was competitive. Then, they change to a 16.5 tire and importance of horsepower goes way up, because the contact patch is basically doubled. Just in time for that, Rossi is on the Honda, has it figured out and has Jeremy Burgess. Honda has the bike, crew, tires, etc. The championship is his."

"Then, he is with Honda when the move to four strokes and MotoGP is made. It's (the RC211V). Honda again has the bike, crew, tires, etc. He wins."

The tale of Rossi, according to Junior, should not be told without mentioning the contribution of Alex Barros, who rode the Yamaha in 2003.
Roberts continues, "Then he goes to Yamaha. Okay, nobody remembers this, but, who rode the Yamaha the season before Rossi? Alex Barros. Remember they gave Barros an RC212V at the end of 2002 and he won three of the last four races on it. So he was very good. And Barros told Yamaha in 2003, 'Hey, you have no torque here. What you need is more power and a flatter torque curve so it has a wider powerband'. And so, when they go to build the new engine configuration, they make it with more torque, change the firing order, a wider powerband and more power. Valentino rode the bike at Malaysia and it was a lot better. So, Rossi, with a lot of effort from Yamaha and himself, gets on the Yamaha and wins the world championship. And at the same time, when he got off the Honda, Michelin had brought in a new tire, which on the Honda created a lot of chatter. Honda didn't use that new Michelin, which hurt them. Yet Yamaha didn't have that chatter problem with the new Michelin. Valentino and Burgess got that new Michelin to work on the Yamaha."

Originally Posted by Parth46

Aw shucks, you've got me here mate and I concede defeat. This "tortured" fanboy is not even remotely qualified to make such an insane, sweeping judgement call on the greatest bike racer to have ever walked God's green earth, but if you, in all your bike racing experience, your "insider" access to MotoGP data, and all your wisdom, say so - I'm ready to roll with that.

I've always presented career figures in my previous posts, and not just a sub-section of a few years. It's only you who've manipulated numbers by showing results from a section of a riders career. The fact is this- Do Moaner/Lorenzo/Marquez have 9 world titles? NO!! Get back in a few years when they do and we'll rap.

Valentino Rossi is not the greatest of all time by any means. Let me show you the stats set by another rider - Giacomo Agostini.

Agostini did not lose a single race for three years from 1968-1970 in two different classes. Make it four years if you include only retirements.

He won 7 championships consecutively from 1968-1974 on the 350.
He won 7 championships consecutively from 1966-1972 on the 500.
He won the 350cc on MV Augusta in 1973 and on Yamaha in 1974.
He won the 500cc on MV Augusta in 1973 and on Yamaha in 1975
He has a total of 15 championships across both the 350 and 500

So let Rossi do this and we will call him the greatest ever and we can RAP!!

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by JayKis

Sheel, just a different perspective from my side.

And I really respect that

Your pick is Valentino and I respect that decision but most of the Rossi fans have no respect for other riders. This has been proved in due course of history over their remarks on Biaggi, Gibernau, Cappirossi, Stoner and Lorenzo.
But if you question Rossi, they tend to first do the character assassination of the questioner and his favourite rider. A pattern observed along the years.

Considering they can't beat a rider in the Indian class. I personally don't like that. An armchair critic with internet & data.

You could bet that if he qualified 2nd he would catch Lorenzo? I dont think so. The reason is here. He simply doesnt have the pace to match Lorenzo on a medium front tyre. How good is he on the front hard. We will get to know this weekend. Here is the analysis of the last 3 races
http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/219...omparison.html
Rossi simply lacks the pace is the answer

Jay, maybe not this race, but if Rossi was .0xx seconds closer, I can bet my life on the outcome. I am not saying he is faster [earlier as well] but if he has to fight it out or the top guy is closer, you just know who is gonna win. Lap time wise, sure others are faster.

Does it make for interesting viewing? Not to the layman. It still makes a good viewing for the people who understand racing.

This is an orchestra which maybe you like to watch [in a good way :-)], but I would any-day pick a battle for a win over a snooze-fest.

So the pattern is obvious isnt it? Can a rider win without technology? The answer lies in the pattern. So the question is did Rossi (any racer for that matter) actually win the championship or was it the bike? The question to ponder.

For me, it has always been rider>bike. Electronics are taking over & someday we might have E-Moto GP class, but it will still be better than races on 4 wheels.

Have a look at street riding/driving as well. The way cars have electronics, to park, to brake etc. Bikes are still raw & therein lies my appeal.

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

And what should be the explanation behind Rossi moving to an inferior bike in 2005 and win the very first race although the RC211V was unbeatable just a few months back?

Much water has flown since then. Rossi is the same, but am sure there are other factors. Everyone on the grid is there to win. No body has the agenda to come 2nd.

I am a fan of Rossi but as Sheel has mentioned, I too have tremendous respect for other riders. I feel credit must be given where it is due. Some bhpians have put demeaning comments about Rossi as well as other riders, IMHO we should be refraining from such discussions. Healthy discussion will go a long way

+1

Moto GP/Rossi & other riders wouldn't have been the same had it not been for other riders.

EDIT: In response to Jay's reply just above^^

Originally Posted by JayKis

This is what Kenny Roberts Jr (a guy who beat Rossi in 2000 on a 500 to win the championship). A guy who is part of the factory development teams and has privy information says

"Valentino has had just a an exceptional gift when it comes to being on the right bike at the right time.

Not his fault Jay. I don't think you can pick anything here. That is bickering by Roberts Jr IMHO.

And Alex #4, the Brazilian was a genius. I remember his short stint on WSBK as well.

[Parth46]

Not quoting anyone but a general comment that I do have a lot of respect for all current riders and all others who've competed against my idol - Valentino Rossi. My posts over the last few pages will confirm that I've time and again made this very clear that they're all supremely talented riders who have my respect.

I don't even possess a fraction of the talent these top racers in the world possess and they are competing at the highest level in a sport that can mean win or lose in fractions of seconds.

That said, the general refrain in this thread has been to attack Rossi as well, with facts being shown to prove that:

He is past his prime
He won only due to electronics
He won due to Jerry Burgess
He won only in a specific period on a specific bike

All this just shows a hurry on everyone's part to write him off and herald the arrival of new blokes who are very fast and seriously good and are winning over the last few years.

Does the fact that a 36 year old is still very competitive in a grid full of early-20 year old blokes mean nothing?
Do his 9 titles (more than several riders combined) mean nothing?
Does the passage of time in which he has seen off quite a few great racers and beaten them (and gotten beat by them) mean nothing?

Why can't we appreciate the fact that he simply is one of the greatest bike racers of all time?

Rossi fans are being accused of character assassination - when people themselves have indulged in degenerate name calling and using frankly disgusting names for one of the greatest sports stars of all time.

True, others are very good, some almost as good.
True, he is not in the best form of his life over the last few years, but can we simply overlook the great shape he's in this year?
True, his Ducati stint was a disaster but will you ever look at all he's done over his illustrious career?

Why is F1 down in the dumps when it comes to viewer attendance and overall popularity? Robotic racing, hardly any overtakes, and hardly any fun.

Doesn't racing serve a very primal instinct at a very basic level?
Isn't racing more fun when 5 guys are duking it out for a podium position compared to one guy just running away? (no one is saying it's that guy's fault)

We can all just watch qualifying on Saturday and be done with it when we know the lap timings? Why even watch the damn race on Sunday?

The spectacle of the greatest racers pushing hard against each other is what gives racing its edge, it's entertainment quotient and the high we get when our favorite rider crosses the line in first.

Obviously, electronics and bike tech will advance gradually every year and riders will take advantage of it. But a guy who's been there and done that for 19 years across grids, bikes and rivals deserves our respect and nothing else.

Peace.

Cheers,
Parth

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by Parth46

This "tortured" fanboy is not even remotely qualified to make such an insane, sweeping judgement call on the greatest bike racer to have ever walked God's green earth, but if you, in all your bike racing experience, your "insider" access to MotoGP data, and all your wisdom, say so - I'm ready to roll with that.
In closing - I know this can go on indefinitely, and this is my last comment here.

Originally Posted by Parth46

Why can't we appreciate the fact that he simply is one of the greatest bike racers of all time?

Now that Rossi has been conveniently stepped down from the greatest bike racer to ever walk on God's green earth to simply one of the greatest bike racers of all time, (courtesy Agostini) let me add some more snippets of information to this.

Since the GOAT debate compares across time lets do an analysis of when the racers happened to be together in a race.

Rossi's biggest rivals were Biaggi, Gibernau, Capirossi from 2001 to 2006 Rossi has stellar results against Biaggi, Gibernau and Capirossi who were all 30, 29 and 28 in 2001 whereas Rossi was 22 and they raced against him till 2006. (Biaggi till 2005 , Gibernau till 2006 and Capirossi till 2011). Over this period he won all the championships except one. 4 time world champion.

Rossi then had a younger crop of rivals with Stoner in 2006 (aged 21 with Rossi 27), Lorenzo in 2008 (aged 21 with Rossi 29) and Marquez in 2013 (aged 20, with Rossi 34). His results against these three are not great at all. 2-time world Champion when compared to Stoner and Lorenzo who also have two each. None compared to Marquez who is a 2-time Champion in the mean while.

Each race at each track is captured over the years they raced together. "Wins" show the number of wins by each and "Position" shows the number of times Rossi has finished the race better than Stoner/Lorenzo and vice-versa.

Rivalry with Stoner


Key Highlights: 7 years from 2006-2012
1) Stoner leads 37-25 in terms of the number of wins.
2) Stoner has finished a race better than Rossi 71-51.
3) Stoner leads points 1815-1702.
4) Stoner has won on all the tracks whereas Rossi hasnt won in Britain, Australia, Valencia, Turkey and Aragon during the said time frame.
5) Rossi has never beaten Stoner (on factory ride) at Australia (Stoner won all of them) in 6 attempts and Turkey as well

Rivalry with Lorenzo


Key Highlights: 7 years from 2008-2014
1) Lorenzo leads 33-19 in terms of the number of wins
2) Lorenzo has finished a race better than Rossi 76-46.
3) Lorenzo leads the points 2037-1746.
3) Lorenzo has not won German and Malaysia whereas Rossi hasnt won British, Portugal, Valencia and Aragon (excluding Americas and Argentina)
4) Rossi has never beaten Lorenzo at Portugal and Aragon in 5 attempts.

Rivalry with Marq Marquez.
There is nothing to write here. We all know what happened from 2013-2014!

So Rossi has now gone from the greatest bike racer to ever walk on God's green earth to simply one of the greatest bike racers to the fourth best racer. (including Stoner).

The REALITY Strikes.

[mayankk]

Unfortunately still a 2 time champion against a 6 time legend. (Naught elsewhere)
So good in fact, that he retired at the ripe old age of, er.......

The reality sticks to its ground
In bold, as well as Italics this time!!

[Parth46]

Originally Posted by mayankk

Unfortunately still a 2 time champion against a 6 time legend. (Naught elsewhere)
So good in fact, that he retired at the ripe old age of, er.......

The reality sticks to its ground
In bold, as well as Italics this time!!


Say guys, coudnt we have a dedicated thread for this argument, rather than discussing has beens or other wise in a 2015 GP thread?

There is not even an argument, hence no need for a separate thread mate.

Again, the data is being sliced and diced, and the core values of racing are being diluted by folks who've just got a few facts to stick to.

And you're bang-on : The fact from the other side is this - Stoner won on Ducati. Ironically, this fact is being highlighted so much that it shows there is nothing much else to post regarding Stoner, who quit the sport at the prime of his career for, you guessed it - moaning!

Said time and again and will repeat - it's stupid to leave the sport you're on top of just cos your rival is more popular and is cheered even after he loses.

Yes, you won on Ducati, but the main REALITY is - you complained and you moaned and you quit, whereas the other fella just continued racing and beat many more even after you, and yes got beaten by them as well.

Mayankk - you used just the right word buddy - HAS BEEN. No point dissecting much the lesser careers of those who've come and gone, I'm happy enjoying and respecting the exploits of one who still soldiers on and is still a very major threat.

If you witness someone or something special you know it, and sometimes that often transcends the issues of simply adding up statistics.

With so much data being thrown, what next? Stoner's helmet was brighter than Rossi's? His paddock girl was hotter? LOL.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Parth46

His paddock girl was hotter? LOL.

Rossi apparently has a favorite umbrella girl. Who got married and pregnant and Rossi apparently still had her in a race baby bump and all. Even threw a baby shower after the baby was born.

Just trivia. But to my simple minded do-it-on-the-road/track mind, as critical to the discussion as the reams of after-the-fact analyst data being put forward here.

Ask any active racer, how much solace they take from statistics when being passed on the inside on the penultimate lap of an in-the-bag race.

[Parth46]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Ask any active racer, how much solace they take from statistics when being passed on the inside on the penultimate lap of an in-the-bag race.

Catalunya 2009, (video on the previous page) comes to mind! (there are many, many other instances as well!)

Oh no, how can you overtake me at the last moment and win the race! Don't you know that I was leading the race the whole time, I was 0.000098756 seconds quicker than you per lap? I also qualified in the first place and you started from bloody 9th? Your win means nothing.

You still won? Oh that sucks! Better luck next time - try qualifying better and someday you'll be where I am!.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Parth46

Catalunya 2009, (video on the previous page) comes to mind! (there are many, many other instances as well!)

Oh no, how can you overtake me at the last moment and win the race! Don't you know that I was leading the race the whole time, I was 0.000098756 seconds quicker than you per lap? I also qualified in the first place and you started from bloody 9th? Your win means nothing.

You still won? Oh that sucks! Better luck next time - try qualifying better and someday you'll be where I am!.

In cycling parlance my friend, some guys are racers. While others are time trialists.

In must really stick in the craw of computer analysts to see their heroes ahead on dozens of split-hair parameter stats.

And at the end of the day one man has 9 world championships and enough fans ready to die for him to populate a continent or two.

True that. Better luck next (life) time.

It must really suck to be born in the earth span of a God.

[Parth46]

Originally Posted by ebonho

And at the end of the day one man has 9 world championships and enough fans ready to die for him to populate a continent or two.

True that. Better luck next (life) time.

At the same time, loyalists for others are just fair weather friends, in my opinion - ready to stick their neck out just cos Lorenzo won the last three races and suddenly the computers became alive with mountains of data that if printed can deplete the Amazon rain forests of trees!

I never saw so much debate after the first three rounds when he was down and out and was way behind others and a certain someone was kicking ass.

Only recently have folks started enjoying their day out in the sun. All the best to everyone, and here's to a great rest of the season!

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Parth46

Just fair weather friends, in my opinion - ready to stick their neck out just cos Lorenzo won the last three races and suddenly the computers became alive with mountains of data that if printed can deplete the Amazon rain forests of trees!

I never saw so much debate after the first three rounds when he was down and out and was way behind others and a certain someone was kicking ass.

Only recently have folks started enjoying their day out in the sun. All the best to everyone, and here's to a great rest of the season!

The difference between Rossi fans and Other fans is that I have seldom (actually to be honest, NEVER) seen a die hard Other fan who continues to be an Other fan (substitute Biaggi, Gibernaue, Capirosi, Stoner, Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Marquez, Hayden, Other Moto GP rider of Choice here) and ONLY an Other fan.

More often than not, (actually, always), what is truer is that they are anti-Rossi opportunist fans. Who will latch on to the flavor of the day who's having a good run against Rossi. Stoner retired? Bleh big deal. Lorenzo is GOD.

Lorenzo's stars fading? Tension not, Wonder Boy Marquez to the rescue.

Marquez falling more than riding? Ha! Get a life. Lorenzo is kicking butt again, dintcha hear?

It reminds me a lot of the current anti BJP/RSS wave of coalitions being cobbled (and broken) night and day in India. The primary aim being not to win. But to keep the BJP out, hook or crook. Did you watch Laloo's interview with Arnob last night? Guess what I was thinking of while watching it.

[killjoy]

For all your scientific analysis, Rossi has a fan following that is twice the size of anyone else riding currently or the past. Leave the statistics aside man, Rossi is a player and he has the gift.

[Parth46]

Originally Posted by killjoy

For all your scientific analysis, Rossi has a fan following that is twice the size of anyone else riding currently or the past. Leave the statistics aside man, Rossi is a player and he has the gift.

C'mon Killjoy - don't be a killjoy mate! If the numbers show Lorenzo is God, Stoner is the almighty, and Marquez is so untouchable that it needn't even be mentioned, who are we to question that! Wikipedia hath spoken, 9 titles, and awesome racing be damned!