[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Miyata

No wonder then people are skeptical. It comes across as one of those fields that may have more charlatans than maestros!

Sure. The showmen and charlatans can thrive in the worlds of alternative and complimentary medicine. They do, and always have done, all over the world. The expression Snake Oil does not originate in India.

I have had some interest in herbal and other non-allopathic therapies for many years. I frequently remind those who poo-poo the whole idea of herbs that many alopathic medicines have herbal or natural roots (no pun intended) and that some seriously important medicines have come from other-cultural systems. It is also wrong to think that, just because something is an allopathic drug, its chemistry and biology it totally understood. I am neither a doctor nor a scientist, just a guy who likes to know a bit more about medicines than that the doc prescribed it: Over the years, I have so often found words to the effect "We don't know how this works." But research, testing, clinical trials, etc, have shown that it does. Even in allopathic medicine, "research" can be economically influenced, but non-allopathic treatments should be subject, for better or for worse, to the same standards.

I'd love it if one of the world's herbal medicines found a simple, cheap cure for corvid19. And, with Chinese medicine having given us a mainstay treatment for malaria, the possibility is always there. But am I excited about Patanjali? No. But I'd be really happy to be wrong. Let independent trials give the verdict.

[adrian]

Pretty much adoptable method in the current times

[Miyata]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Let independent trials give the verdict.

Totally agreed. Medicine is just medicine - it matters none at all what label one chooses to associate with it [allopathy; ayurveda; homeopathy; traditional-chinese; etc...]. As long as they are put through the same rigors of tests and analysis, the labels are of no consequence (to the common Joe).

Eventually most medicines will have some connection with organic matter (plants / animals / algae). Typically, with the active ingredient verified, they just try and figure out synthetic ways of generating that active ingredient and possibly enhance its activity through some modifications. One of the most popularly used medicines, aspirin, also has its origin in shrubs.

In my early days of reading through peer-reviewed journals I used to be excited when I'd come across something "having potential to cure this/that disease!". Over time I have wisened up a bit to now know better!

[INJAXN]

Novak Djokovic tests positive for Coronavirus. His wife is also tested positive for Coronavirus.
He took part in tennis exhibition series he organized in Serbia and Croatia.

The Tour was designed to help upcoming tennis players from South-Eastern Europe to gain access to some competitive tennis while the various tours are on hold due to the COVID-19 situation.

More details here:
https://www.thehindu.com/sport/tenni...le31899224.ece

[DigitalOne]

Patanjali Ayurved told to stop advertising anti-COVID-19 drug

Link

Centre seeks details on the formulation to verify claims.

Hours after yoga guru Baba Ramdev unveiled an Ayurvedic medicine — ‘Coronil and Swasari’ — on Tuesday, claiming that clinical trials on COVID-19 affected patients had shown favourable results, the Central government asked Patanjali Ayurved Limited to stop advertising the drug and sought details on its claimed “successful trial and cure”.

Patanjali Ayurved has been asked to provide, at the earliest, details of the name and composition of the medicines being claimed as successful in COVID-19 treatment; site(s)/ hospital(s) where the research study was conducted; the protocol, sample size, Institutional Ethics Committee clearance, Clinical Trials Registry-India (CTRI) registration, and results data of the study, and to stop advertising/publicising such claims till the issue had been duly examined.

[DCEite]

Originally Posted by adrian

Pretty much adoptable method in the current times

Attachment 2020047

Mmm but why not have the same yardstick for allopathic cures as well. Why only for "Herbal".

No one raised eyebrows when Glenmark released FabiFlu or when Cipla and other companies released Remdesivir. Why shouldn't the owners of these pharma giants be asked to infect themselves with Covid-19 and try the medicines into themselves for proof ? I know it's a joke but still.


The problem is our own slave mentality. Anything which comes from the west is godsend. And anything
that is homegrown is utter crap.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by DCEite

No one raised eyebrows when Glenmark released FabiFlu...The problem is our own slave mentality. Anything which comes from the west is godsend. And anything that is homegrown is utter crap.

Isn't Glenmark based in Mumbai?

And anyway, isn't it the AYUSH Ministry themselves now asking for more details about Coronil and their research?

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by DCEite

The problem is our own slave mentality. Anything which comes from the west is godsend. And anything that is homegrown is utter crap.

The problem WAS our slave mentality, and over the recent years the extreme reaction to this realisation has been exactly the opposite i.e. anything homegrown and linked to our culture/sanskriti is supreme (just untested as yet)! Clearly both extremes are wrong, either when accepting or when dismissing.

Anyway, the biggest Red Flag I personally saw was the 100% claim. Anyone who has been exposed to large scale testing or trials, or understands the requisite methodology, would know that achieving 100% is statistically impossible, unless your testing AT BEST is deficient, and AT WORST hasn't happened.

[DCEite]

Originally Posted by am1m

Isn't Glenmark based in Mumbai?

And anyway, isn't it the AYUSH Ministry themselves now asking for more details about Coronil and their research?

Glenmark is based in Mumbai but Favipiravir is not. Neither is Remdesivir. I am talking about the medicinal compounds.

Edit: My whole point is that it is good to be sceptical. Whether its allopathic or ayurvedic, we need to be cautious of the claims made by the manufacturers. But we cannot be selectively blind in our trust for allopathy and at the same time ridicule Ayurveda/traditional medicine by making atrocious jokes like the one posted in this thread (that the Herbalists need to infect themselves first and then show proof of their cure). Its not only about this absurd joke, but in general the mindset which some of us educated Indians have.
This mindset has to change and we need to be more open.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by DCEite

Glenmark is based in Mumbai but Favipiravir is not. Neither is Remdesivir. I am talking about the medicinal compounds.

You do realize there is no slave market where slave traders trade medicines. There are multi stage trials (Phase 1, Phase 2 and Phase 3) which manufacturers have to clear.

You have to back up your claim with evidence.
For example, this study is on 1063 patients and published in nejm
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007764


Baba Ramdev is free to do research and publish peer reviewed research. This is how science has worked, and the scientific method was pioneered not just in west, but even in Indian civilization over 2000 years ago.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by DCEite

Mmm but why not have the same yardstick for allopathic cures as well. Why only for "Herbal".

The problem is our own slave mentality. Anything which comes from the west is godsend. And anything
that is homegrown is utter crap.

Oh Please. Another product in the Baba's portfolio is bottled GauMutra.
I wouldn't trust his "medicines" and "trials". If it is so good, he should open the test results and subjects. And go through the proper approval process. That he has not is evident from the blockade by the AYUSH ministry. This ministry itself has taken on a propaganda-ish role. They were much better and more research oriented while they were under the MoHFW. They didn't fantasize about miracle drugs then. They've completely changed, which is why I find their questioning the Baba a welcome surprise.

[shashant]

How effective is Ozone Vegetable Purifier(with respect to covid), one which are sold by Kent and others.

[DCEite]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

You do realize there is no slave market where slave traders trade medicines. There are multi stage trials (Phase 1, Phase 2 and Phase 3) which manufacturers have to clear.

You have to back up your claim with evidence.
For example, this study is on 1063 patients and published in nejm
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2007764


Baba Ramdev is free to do research and publish peer reviewed research. This is how science has worked, and the scientific method was pioneered not just in west, but even in Indian civilization over 2000 years ago.

Well TSK according to Patanjali Randomised Placebo-Controlled Clinical Trials for this drug combination before launching. I am not advocating this claim but this is what they have said. The file is with Ayush ministry and its for them to decide or not if all the procedures are followed.

Note: FaviPiravir was launched without Phase 3 trails not yet completed, do you realise that ?

If not, please read this:

They said the drug was in the clinical trial stage for the treatment of Covid-19 not only in Japan, where the drug is approved for treating influenza but also in the US and Europe. While Japan has commenced phase 3 clinical trials, in the United States a phase 2 trial will start.

“It’s still under trial and has not been approved in the US or Europe so it is a little difficult to understand why India has already approved it,” a member of the Indian Council of Medical Research’s national Covid-19 task force said.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/nat...s-2159867.html

And this:

https://www.news18.com/news/india/sc...l-2684253.html

[JithinR]

Originally Posted by DCEite

Edit: My whole point is that it is good to be sceptical.

Those who are sceptical are the ones asking for the data that backs up the efficacy of this drug that Patanjali claims to have.

Originally Posted by DCEite

Whether its allopathic or ayurvedic, we need to be cautious of the claims made by the manufacturers. But we cannot be selectively blind in our trust for allopathy and at the same time ridicule Ayurveda/traditional medicine by making atrocious jokes like the one posted in this thread (that the Herbalists need to infect themselves first and then show proof of their cure). Its not only about this absurd joke, but in general the mindset which some of us educated Indians have.
This mindset has to change and we need to be more open.

The reason we don't need to make these stupid jokes with Allopatic medicines is simply because the CEO of these companies would not come out and make absurd claims like "Patanjali Ayurved on Tuesday launched Coronil and Swasari claiming that it has successfully cured scores of under-trial Covid-19 patients with 100% results except for those on life support systems."

It takes years of research and even more years of testing before a company announces a drug. Even if a drug is being re purposed to fight another disease it is because it was already tested with sound scientific principles the previous time around. The CEO of these companies do not make stupid bombastic claims without data to back it up. So, we don't need to make stupid jokes about them.

I agree that we have aped the west too long and pay the price for it. But, I would say take heed of your own advise " Whether its allopathic or ayurvedic, we need to be cautious of the claims made by the manufacturers". If you actually followed it then you would realize that its irresponsible to make claims without data to back it up and without that data being peer-reviewed.

NOTE: Educated Indians who suddenly now have a new found respect for their centuries old scientific discoveries would do well to remember that just like aping the west was detrimental to our country, blindly believing every single account of our past glory is also stupid.

As for me, if this drug (which they have already clarified is a cure and not a immunity booster) works out then my respect for Ayurveda will increase even more. If it falls flat, then I would just be more cautious of any such claims in the future.

Of course, I expect a lot of these newly nationalistic Indians (both educated and uneducated) to simply claim that it was a well orchestrated smear campaign by 'The Big Pharma' to subvert Indian traditional medicine.

Also, I would like to point out that if Patanjali went through the proper channels to get this approved before doing a media publicity blitz then none of their detractors would have a leg to stand on.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by DCEite

The problem is our own slave mentality. Anything which comes from the west is godsend. And anything that is homegrown is utter crap.

I can't say for others. But I can say for myself. I do not have that slave mentality. Anything that is tested & certified is godsend. Anything that is not tested and if its creator cannot explain why it works is utter crap.

Actually, I have found out the other way most of the times - people saying that anything from West is crap and anything herbal is godsend.

No one raised eyebrows when Glenmark released FabiFlu or when Cipla and other companies released Remdesivir.

These drugs were already tested for different diseases. The current trials of these drugs are to find its efficacy for COVID-19.

Why shouldn't the owners of these pharma giants be asked to infect themselves with Covid-19 and try the medicines into themselves for proof ? I know it's a joke but still.

It is not a joke. In fact they do, may be not with themselves but with human trials.