[_chikku]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Yes - has access to triangulated location for me which isn't very precise, but given that this data isn't shared freely amongst carriers, nor aggregated across operators unless on a legal order, it isn't completely possible to build a picture of who I am with at any given time.


Yes - Aggregates or Threshold breaches are reported to RBI, Tax authorities, Credit Reference Agencies etc., but any Tom, Dick and Harry will find it difficult to build a complete financial profile to target me unless I am extremely careless. The government still can though.


Yes - Although is possible to spoof.

Anyway, there are lacunae here which will prevent all this data rolling up and getting consolidated to build a very accurate and real-time profile. With this App however, except the financial side (which can always be seeded later), this picture can be built in the real time with great accuracy. At least that's how I understand things.

So people should not be having any problem with all their data in the hands of private firms, which in-turn will end up sharing with government - if required. But people should be worried that government is collecting their data directly from app ?

Again I ask what is the data people are worried about, that this app is collecting ? I want to know, as I have not installed yet.

[MegaWhat]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

I am actually very very interested in knowing what kind of data theft or identity theft all you guys are harping about?...


...I don't understand what more damage can another app make.
For get all this. Your Smart TVs. Those cameras are always on!!

Indeed you're correct! Privacy is close to becoming a myth, and the government has access to all of our information.

But previously, the government would have to do obtain a written approval from our legal system if they needed access to any citizens private information, for investigation or any purpose whatsoever. There is a system in place to access such information.

With such an app though, that entire system is bypassed. No legal oversight at all, irrespective of if the data of millions of Indians is wisely used or in the worst case, abused. That becomes a problem.

Democracy requires the executive and the judiciary. Remove any one in entirety and the rules of the game change significantly.

[theMandarin]

Originally Posted by _chikku

Again I ask what is the data people are worried about, that this app is collecting ? I want to know, as I have not installed yet.

The possibility of having your real-time location being tracked with an accuracy of under 10 meters, without a clear definition about to whom this information is accessible or details on the managerial oversight to prevent misuse and risk being prosecuted if you're not OK with the above premise.

Any suggestions on how this can be improved?

• By reducing the accuracy of location that is captured. This may come at the cost of slight drop in efficacy but promises increased privacy and we already have examples on how to do it. Comparison with Singapore's TraceTogether App || Solution provided by Apple & Google
• By adding a clear demarcation in the published policies about the lifetime of the data gathering initiative a.k.a. 'Sunset clause'
• By establishing clear definitions on who will oversee the whole exercise to prevent misuse and to affix responsibility
• & Lastly by addressing the concerns that are being voiced here and marketing the benefits to increase its voluntary use rather than coercing everyone.

It's worth mentioning that many countries are having these discussions around the world. I am mentioning this not to give credence to my point but to illustrate that there are many who share these concerns which are not driven by political leanings or vested interests.
Could coronavirus tracking apps risk our privacy?

Just think of how useful RTI has become to ensure transparency in public dealings.
Information/Data, is an important resource. You just need to know how to make sense of it to put it to use (Good or bad).

Found this resource tracking various departments/situations where the usage is being mandated:
Tweet | Direct Link

[dailydriver]

I haven't downloaded the app yet; but given that I am just a musician who must heed to the call of the master who pays me and must play the tune he demands of me, I will very likely have to - soon.

Governments start by emasculating their own men - who are, funnily enough, known as government servants. Many of us had reservations sharing our AADHAAR with our boss men. We held out, until the day we were threatened with no number-no pay. We surrendered, meekly.

Birdies tell me that my paymasters in Shakti Soudha are about to make this app the bridge (setu) that could enable an employee to reach his salary. So, although I could reserve my vote for now, I would in all probability, have to say YES.

While on the issue, this cartoon from today's Deccan Herald deserves a serious look in.

[lapis_lazuli]

IMHO the major problem lies in the fact that non-compliance is deemed to be a CRIMINAL offense. That too, at the whims of the "local" IxS club. (These are the least impacted, in fact NOT impacted at all, of all citizens). It is clearly mentioned that public within containment areas ONLY need to install the app. So, if this is not abuse of discretionary power, what is?

It is not like non-furnishing of Adhaar restricting you from availing a benefit : pecuniary or otherwise. Here, whereas the efficacy OR benefit of the mandate itself, is questionable, your intention to avail the benefit, or not, is not important. Compliance by coercion, is; that too, as a punishable offense.

Once again, YourBank/Google/FB/WA/twitter does/can not "punish" you for choosing not to divulge your details or not subscribe to their offering. The government, WILL use this AGAINST you, directly or indirectly, if not, FOR you.

The most terrifying words in the history of mankind, "WE ARE FROM THE GOVERNMENT, AND WE ARE HERE TO HELP YOU" circa 1976

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by _chikku

Again I ask what is the data people are worried about, that this app is collecting ? I want to know, as I have not installed yet.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Private entities would have fragmented data about an individual and would struggle usually to aggregate all the domains given privacy laws, and competition considerations.
The government can operate above and beyond any such compunctions, thus aggregating all domains with ease. Hence the onus is on the government to give individuals due transparency, so that we can trust them (sic) when sharing that data.
There is another additional aspect, given the history of government data centres and apps around the world, which is the ease with which they can be attacked and compromised. So that aggregated data may find it's way pretty easily into the hands of malevolent actors, within and outwith the government.

[tsk1979]

I also wonder why are these govt apps not open source? NHS open sourced its app, and quickly people found issues and these will be patched.
Often, the risk is not from intent, but incompetence. Having more eyes on the code definitely helps.

[skumare]

My employer mandated the app to be installed in (personal) phones before resuming work at office, citing similar apps being used in other countries. No mention about people who uses a feature phone. Not sure how long this is required.

[mvadg]

I believe nothing is going to convince those supporting such apps unless they have a bad experience personally. And that experience should be "bad enough" to change their behavior. Such is the nature of the human organism.

I've had enough bad experiences to make me wary of the Internet and computing devices and the naive people that run many of these systems. One of my earliest experiences came from clicking on an ad in the early days of the Internet, that was displayed on the "How Stuff Works" website. Yes, I naively believed that my hero, Marshall Brain, the creator of How Stuff Works would not "allow" ads like "make a 1000 dollars a month just..." if such ads did not pass their own high standards!

The tsunami of spam that hit me after that was a mind boggling revelation about the dark side of the Internet. Of course, being familiar with assembly language and the ability to "fix" those silly games to make me a winner every time helped me understand what could be done - but it still amazes me to discover what crooks are capable of these days with supposedly secure systems. My advice, beware!

[V.Narayan]

The GoI's desire to evergreen Arogya Setu and know who is physically where and when is not to track the personal lives of us ordinary Tom, Dick and Harry types. They really are not interested in whether you are cheating on your spouse or moonlighting. They wish to use it to keep track of who all go for protest rallies against GoI policies - NRC etc being a recent case in point. Who are the young people protesting against proposed policies. That's what they are looking for. Once this gets into the system no Govt of any political colour will want to let go of such a prize. I say this even though I support the current Govt. This is simply how Govt's think. Let's not kid ourselves.

[Biker Ram]

Not convinced how this can help the general public. Very much convinced the government will have the big data that they can use for a lot of their benefit. I don't like the idea of forcing people to do something. I understand in some cases the decisions are taken in larger interest, but enforcing this app, definitely not.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The GoI's desire to evergreen Arogya Setu and know who is physically where and when is not to track the personal lives of us ordinary Tom, Dick and Harry types.

Thanks VN. 175 posts, 550 people voting, and in almost a week you finally call it!

Let me expand on what you have said.

The reason why we don't get surveilled is one of effort/ cost. We are simply not important enough. And there are too many of us. These defences fail in the face of technology like AS. So we need more formal codified defences.
In anycase the govt. has the tools to surveil anyone it wants. There is a difference between targeted/ selective information gathering, and fishing expeditions.

A dragnet is indiscriminate. It does not distinguish between what it has scooped up. The AS app is both a dragnet, and a sniper rifle. A dragnet because of the ridiculous ease and low cost of picking up 'prey'. You gave just one example. There are many more.

So what happens after you are caught in a dragnet? Likely some minor functionary working to please his boss (formal or informal incentive scheme of 'how many #$%^& have you identified today') puts your name on a file. Congrats! From that day onwards you are worthy of targeted surveillance!

They really are not interested in whether you are cheating on your spouse or moonlighting.

Actually it can be an useful tool of coercion/ blackmail. Once you are important enough.

I say this even though I support the current Govt.

Do you think it will give give you some form of protection/ immunity?

Sutripta

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

I also wonder why are these govt apps not open source?

How does open sourcing benefit the government?

Sutripta

[dailydriver]

A marketing guy once told me how, since people are accustomed to oiling their hair, unless twin packed with shampoo sachets, conditioners won't really find ready buyers in India.

The following Government of Karnataka circular, innocuously listing the steps for re-entry to the state from anywhere else in the country, adds a very simple, mandatory condition(er) [marked in red].



Long live freedom of choice!

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

How does open sourcing benefit the government?

Only an honest government.