[jayded]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

My observation on this plagiarism controversy based on TeamBHP/Twitter posts:

Most folks from Kerala think Varaha Roopam is a copy of Navarasam. And conversely, most folks from Karnataka don't.

It is quite possible that on a subconscious level, our views on this topic is influenced by our regional identity.

I was about to post something in these lines. At the end of it, it's mostly about which version you heard first and liked. Most folks outside Kerala might have heard Varaha Roopam first and liked it before even the controversy broke out and heard about Navarasam. Once you like something, more often than not, we humans tend to defend it like it's our own. Enjoy art for what it is. There will always be plagiarism and 'inspiration' in everything around us, and it's only fair to give credit when it's due. If you copy something and wrap it in gold, it's still a golden copy, nothing more, nothing less.

[balenoed_]

Mukundan Unni Associates (M) - Theatre - 2/5

Sheer waste of time. Totally perplexed on what they tried to convey. Portraying a dark humor and a negative vibe through out. I was expecting it will turn around but the movie continued and ended up like that. I think they were trying a different topic with an attempted comedy thriller but in vain. The theme was relevant to the current situations and concept was new but the narration and story telling went wrong. Story of a lawyer attempting to make money through illegal ways and including murders and running scot-free.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by vibbs

Kantara: Kannada with subtitles
As a window to the culture of locals and the traditions, it works. The picturization is great and the atmosphere is well captured. Rishabh Shetty though fails to deliver as an actor in my opinion. He was too loud and overacting for most part except the final 15 mins. That was fantastic.

This is what I thought as well. The movie works because of the way the folklore is woven into the mainstream mass elements. For this reason, I would rate Kantara much higher than say a RRR or a KGF Chapter 2. Rishabh Shetty was really good with the start and end, but the middle part, especially the romantic/comic scenes were either flat or loud.

I watched the Malayalam movie Padavettu yesterday (available on Netflix). Set in North Kerala, similar terrain as of Kantara, and sans the folklore, the premises have similarities – innocent villagers being exploited/manipulated by politicians/landlords. There are even references to Theyyam and art forms that are similar in the region. Padavettu though a good movie, kind of aligns with the recent crop of Malayalam movies that falls into the ‘prakruthi cinema’ category – a now-popular name given for those movies which follow a full-on realistic slow-paced pattern . The movie I believe was critically appreciated in Kerala but probably not a theatre success. And this is where Kantara worked – the makers created the grandeur and cinematic moments that worked/resonated well beyond the boundaries.


Talking about song inspiration – this morning while sitting at a local coffee shop, I heard a song that sounded extremely familiar. Tasked Siri to identify the song and she was up to the task immediately – it was a popular Indonesian soundtrack Tak Bisakah from the movie Alexandria.

A bit of reading and found out that this was the inspiration for a popular song from the movie Woh Lamhe. Probably the makers picked a tune that they thought was virtually unknown in India (Apparently, credits/acknowledgment were given later).

This is what I thought was the original

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DGNn0GslLQ

And the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_rwZ3ETimI

[ph03n!x]

Folks, we're getting way too into the plagiarised vs. not for Varaharoopam. Copied/ inspired/ plagiarised or not, let's enjoy what we got - the Kantara movie is (IMHO) brilliant, esp. if you're someone from the Konkan coast, or know the culture. Even if you're not, it's a visual treat - with a lot of attention to details. While there are more, here's something of an explainer, in Telugu though -

https://youtu.be/ECg6xg5Rb-c

There are enough note-sharing between music composers/ directors (Kasme Wade vs. Kanavu Kanum, Ilaya Nila vs. Neele Amber Par) to outright lift and shift within the Indian music industry (Ottagatha Kattiko vs Roop Suhana Lagtha Hai, where Anu Malik was credited as the music director, AR Rahman was not given even a mention though everyone knows it's more of a Karoke in Hindi - could be the producer) (Inji Iduppazhagi vs Payale Chunmun where the rip-off is obvious, though Anu Malik adds his "jhankar beats") to international rip-offs (millions here, and there are examples from black & white days, but for this post, let me pick this - Sarang Hae Ho vs. Pehle Nazar Mein).

Whether you've heard it before or not, rip-off, inspiration, copy - whatever we call it, as long as we enjoy the movie, the music - it's paisa vasool for me, and I've liked all the versions I've listed above.

You may or may not detest/ avoid like the plague if it's a rip-off - I leave the moral compass to the laws of the land and the creators themselves. We're getting way too into the plagiarised vs. not - let's enjoy what we got

I'm ending my off-track here, let's switch back to the thread topic please!

[Thilak29]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Regarding Visuals, Northern Kerala has very similar culture as Tulunadu. It is impossible to determine who copied whom historically.

Copied ?

Northern Kerala and Tulunadu were intricately interlaced for centuries. In our efforts to distinctly separate them with today's contexts are futile.

Tulu and Malayalam script bear significant resemblance. In fact, Around 11th century Tulu Malayalam script was the dominant script in the region (Tulunadu + Kerala) which then took three unique identity - Tulu, Malayalam and Tigalari.

In many poems of Kerala, you would still find reference as 'Tulunadan'

Sangama texts have good reference of these, Gokarna to Perumbalam used to be Tulunadu but eventually it got restricted to land between Gangavali to Nileshwara rivers.

I can go on but then I am only derailing this thread.

[dailydriver]

Today, Kantara is what it is not just because of what it actually is, but because of who made it.

This is a normal but well shot movie with the usual plot holes, over the top performances, inane comedians, ruthless villains and (the latest fad) a slightly offbeat hero.

Encroachment and Appropriation of both land and culture by the vested interests of the society, exploitation of the marginalized sections, the inherent conflict between culture and civilization and the polemics of local politics are issues that have been dealt well; however, in resorting to the age old technique of bringing in a deus ex machina as an all in one, all conclusive solution to the ills of the society is where the director fails to capitalize on the opportunities that he himself had created till then.

For people not familiar with the culture and practices of coastal Karnataka, the scenes in the movie present a visual spectacle; the audience is simply mesmerized and left wondering why have these things remained off screen till now. For those who have grown up either practicing or seeing others practice these traditions, there are very few wow moments.

Without taking away from the talents and efforts of Rishab Shetty and his team, it wouldn't be too off the mark to contend that the real credit for the film's success belongs to Hombale.

Had the movie not been projected and marketed so strongly and had there been no need to manufacture and meet the box office targets (for legal purposes), Kantara would have been just another film.

The rut that Bollywood has long been in, the trotting success of south films that proceeded it and the prevailing sociopolitical milieu have combined to give Kantara a niche spot in the annals of Indian cinema.

That he has directed a movie which has forced the nation to take notice of and discuss Kannada offerings is an achievement I would indeed laud Rishab Shetty for. More importantly though, he deserves a pat on the back for choosing his partners well and letting them do what they do best.

If, twisting the popular saying a little, one starts believing that Some movies are born great, some achieve greatness, some have greatness thrust upon them, Kantara would, for me personally, be a perfect fit in the last category.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by ph03n!x

Folks, we're getting way too into the plagiarised vs. not for Varaharoopam. Copied/ inspired/ plagiarised or not, let's enjoy what we got - the Kantara movie is (IMHO) brilliant, esp. if you're someone from the Konkan coast, or know the culture. Even if you're not, it's a visual treat - with a lot of attention to details.

Whether you've heard it before or not, rip-off, inspiration, copy - whatever we call it, as long as we enjoy the movie, the music - it's paisa vasool for me, and I've liked all the versions I've listed above.

You may or may not detest/ avoid like the plague if it's a rip-off - I leave the moral compass to the laws of the land and the creators themselves. We're getting way too into the plagiarised vs. not - let's enjoy what we got

Nicely done

Diffuses all the micro-tension that was slowly building up on this thread. Somehow your post reminds me of this scene:

[PreludeSH]

Watched Kantara on prime. Too much is made about the song. Its still a spectacle and though the song is different, it doesn't take anything away.
It looks delicious on my OLED and home theatre sound. Better than when I watched in Urvashi

[sgmuser]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

Kantara is now on Amazon prime from today. The "Varaha roopam" song has been modified in the OTT. It's a much mellowed down version and much of the rock music elements are gone now. This OTT version is not bad but the song which was part of theatre screenings was stong and evoked stronger emotions in the audience I felt. Good that I watched in theatres too. Nevertheless it is still a wonderful movie and people who missed it in theaters should watch this now.

OT but, how we can take this so lightly, I am not sure! We can copy anything from anyone to make a movie more interesting? I am not able to comprehend. No, I am not a Malayali to fight for Thaikkudam people. I just happened to see this news today morning and became curious to find out what is it and then only I realized that some issue is going on.

Link here

Whether it is old or recent copy, copy is copy. After seeing both the video I can safely say that there is some strong similarity. Kathakali traditionally many are aware of how, it is performed, how the make up is done etc. When I first saw the Kantara photo of that similar looking face make up I was slightly puzzled that this looks like Kathakali make up but I thought this is not something outrageous and chances are there that these art form could be in many places especially nearby Karnataka and even in Tamil Nadu. But after listening to both the music videos back to back, I felt there is a strong vibe that these are very similar sounding/arrangements. Thaikkudam group is fairly famous in Youtube and they also performed in various TV programs. The music director of 96 movie is related to Thaikkudam, they are not unknown or small group, just to brush aside.

I am strictly not talking about movie and only about the song. I yet to watch it. I am sucker for original, culturally inclined movies and I am waiting for Amazon Prime (is there already) and will watch it this week hopefully.

[Rajeevraj]

In my view, most movies that are successful at the box office have a good first 15-20 minutes and more importantly a very good last 30 minutes. Our normal nature is to remember that last sections when we leave a theater. If it is good, we tend to forgive an average/poor middle sections and recommend the movie as a good one to watch. Critics may dissect every aspect of it, but a normal viewer does not look that deep.

If you look at some of the biggest grossing Malayalam movies this pattern can be seen. Even the now world famous 'Drishyam'. The first couple of scenes were good and then till the murder coverup starts, it is fairly slow moving. But that last 45 min blew away the audience.

Another example is Kerala's highest grossing movie to date-Pulimurugan. The first fight scene was unexpected for the audience and then the climax fight was again outstanding. Everything in between was average and some sections even cringeworthy.

Mammootty's recent Rorschach, actually a very slow movie, but the last 30 minutes packs a lot of things which made the audience like it.

Kantara is no different. The first 15 minutes is great, the last 20-25 minutes is superb, the music is outstanding (keeping aside who has to get credit), the rest of it is only a one time watch. I thought to watch it again in Prime, but could not sustain interest after the initial parts and then quickly forwarded to the climax-which I think I will see again.

Just my humble opinion.

[WindRide]

There are news reports that kantara on OTT is back with the original song now that the courts have reversed the ban. Can someone confirm whether Kantara is available with original varaha roopam song on Amazon Prime?

[balenoed_]

Originally Posted by WindRide

Can someone confirm whether Kantara is available with original varaha roopam song on Amazon Prime?

Not yet, as of now. Do I need to log out and log in to get the updates.?

Wondering how is it so seamless to get new versions included and excluded on the fly. Can you keep editing the movie after censor board certifications and deployed in the field.

[binand]

Originally Posted by balenoed_

Can you keep editing the movie after censor board certifications and deployed in the field.

I think censor board certification and the rules / processes associated with that are relevant only for public exhibitions (ie, in theatres) and not for watching in the privacy of our homes (OTT).

There was an attempt to bring OTT also under the censor board, but not sure what the status of that is right now.

[adwaith]

Originally Posted by Samurai

The totally watered down Varaha Roopam is not worth listening to. This is like software patenting. Just because someone had similar sounding but virtually unknown song made many year ago, an amazing superhit song has been destroyed, literally.

The standard for originality is not if something is unknown or not. It is the effort and creativity that goes into its creation. If how well known some work is becomes the standard, then it would be a recipe for disaster because people would just blatantly plagiarise lesser known work.

Originally Posted by Samurai

There is a difference between reproducing an article vs creating a superior music composition after being inspired by something.

I don't see this as a copy at all, because Varaha Roopam is much superior product, the so-called inspiration doesn't give me the same vibe.

I absolutely agree Varaha Roopam sounds so much better than Navarasam and infact I've switched to listening Varaha Roopam instead of Naverasam because the feeling that Navarasam gives me is watered down after Varaha Roopam. However, that doesn't change facts that the songs are far too similar to be two separate original works.

Incidentally, I was protesting the concept of software patenting today morning in another thread, on same grounds. I can't help if you can't understand the difference.

Originally Posted by theabstractmind

Off topic: I lost a lot of respect for Ilayaraja due to his copyright obsession which stopped even a legend like SPB performing his songs. At the same time, Robindrosongeet, which is so often rendered in various interpretations is famous and relevant in Bengali music for the reason that copyrights were not imposed. While the tunes themselves at times were inspired by a Western composition or a classical composition, the vastness and quality is indisputable. And thankfully his families did not lay a claim on copyright. Why? SD Burman has created a gem out of the mukhda of an Oriya Bhajan, and used the mukhda of a Tagore song to create an all time hit. And many more possibly inspired by folk tunes. But he created haunting melodies and made the music loveable and accessible to the public.

I have to respectfully disagree. I believe that people should enjoy the fruits of their labour and as such their intellectual creations should grant them some reward in lieu of the time and effort expended. This also ensures that there is incentive to create.

That is exactly what copyright and patent law does by granting a limited monopoly over the intellectual creation to the owner of the work in exchange for giving this work to the larger public. After 60 and 20 years respectively, copyrighted and patented work can be used by anybody, which in the case of patents at least helps bring in the next generation of the technology in question.

I'm not unfamiliar with the Illayaraja issue largely because I held a contrary opinion when it was widely believed that Illayaraja was wrong. SPB wasn't exactly indulging in charity while performing those events. He was getting paid. In essence there was monetary enrichment at the expense of the work of another.

When SPB makes money off the creation of Illayaraja, why shouldn't Illayaraja himself be entitiled to some of the proceeds?

Volvo, for example, patented the three point seat belt but gave it away for free because it could save lives and they were not interested in the monetary aspect of things. Similarly, Robindrosongeet's and SD Burman's family's decision not to ask for compensation seems to be a personal choice.

Originally Posted by balenoed_

Mukundan Unni Associates (M) - Theatre - 2/5

Sheer waste of time.

I was looking forward to this one. Well the wait for Alphonse Puthren's Gold continues I guess.

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

. His last movies all fall into that pattern. 12th Man, Aarattu, Monster.

Aarattu is one of the most confusing movies I've watched. His constantly changing accents made me question my sobriety at some points.


Also, I watched 777 Charlie and I really liked it. To properly enjoy it, you must let go of a bit of logic but its does pull at your heart strings. If you have pets then this movie is definitely for you. It's available on Voot and Amazon Prime.

777 Charlie - 3.5/5

[whencut86]

Originally Posted by vb-san

Probably the makers picked a tune that they thought was virtually unknown in India (Apparently, credits/acknowledgment were given later).

The maker in discussion is Pritam and is quite famous for directly lifting South East Asian and Middle Eastern artists/bands tunes and using it in Bollywood. Just a google search will list all songs he has directly lifted. These bands/artists have criticized this but they don't have the time to fight this in Indian courts and so he gets away with this.