[harry10]

This is the weakest Aussie team in last 3 decades. If we can't win a series from them then Captain and Coach are accountable and changes should be made. Team selection on all overseas tours this year have been ridiculous at times. Not all fans and experts can be wrong about this. Personally I feel Rahane will be a better captain.

[selfdrive]

Perhaps the team is one of the best Indian teams of the last 20 years. But the selection is the worst ever.

Originally Posted by harry10

Team selection on all overseas tours this year have been ridiculous at times. Not all fans and experts can be wrong about this. Personally I feel Rahane will be a better captain.

I agree about the team selection part.
However, in this form? And with Kohli in the team?
I wonder how he would rein him in, that would be some entertainment.

Originally Posted by silverado

I feel in next test , we should open with Mayank Agarwal and Ravi Shastri

Shastri can only open his mouth. Nothing else. That mouth too; he opens wide enough to put both his feet in it.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by harry10

This is the weakest Aussie team in last 3 decades.

This bit about "weakest Aussie team" is debatable. They retained Ashes 4-0 earlier in the year (but the same team in SA lost 3-1 to the Proteas).

There are no weak or strong teams anymore, at least among the top 5-6 teams. The only recognizable pattern is everybody is winning at home and losing on travel. Lets look at the results for last 3 years:

SA in India (end 2015) - India won 3-0!
Eng in SA - Eng won 2-1 (this is an outlier)
Aus in SL - SL won 3-0
NZ in SA - SA won 1-0
NZ in Ind - Ind won 3-0
Eng in BD - 1-1!
SA in Aus - SA won 2-1 (another outlier)
Eng in Ind - Ind won 4-0!
Pak in NZ - NZ won 2-0
Pak in Aus - Aus won 3-0
SL in SA - SA won 3-0
Aus in Ind - Ind won 2-1
SA in NZ - SA won 3 match series 1-0 ( another outlier)
SA in Eng - Eng won 3-1
Eng in Aus - Aus won 4-0 (The Ashes 2017 - 18)
Ind in SA - SA won 2-1
Aus in SA - SA won 3-1
Eng in NZ - NZ won 1-0
Pak in Eng - 1-1 draw
SA in SL - SL won 2-0
Ind in Eng - Eng won 4-1
Eng in SL - Eng won 3-0 (this is one big outlier)

There you have it! Data says most series are just won by hosts. There are some outliers here and there but I dont see any one particular dominant team anymore. Its as if everybody is similarly good or bad!

If we can't win a series from them then Captain and Coach are accountable and changes should be made. Team selection on all overseas tours this year have been ridiculous at times.

Agree on the accounability part.

Not all fans and experts can be wrong about this.

It shouldnt be about right or wrong here. We are all fans and all we can have are opinions. And opinions are subjective. I may think one thing and you may think another and both of us could still be logical in our own world and be right as well.

[fiestarry]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

What a variety of views on this thread -

Hahahaha Excellent use of sarcasm! Chappell laid the foundation - ROTFL!

Oh wait, you were serious?

I am happy that you derived mirth from my observation; however a keener student of the game (who may be different from the ardent fan of the Men in Blue) would know that it was indeed Guru Greg who challenged the hitherto unquestionable place and form of some of the seniors in the mid 2000s... Ganguly was in serious decline in form and fitness, Sachin was playing well below his ability, partly due to his injury, and the other regulars Laxman, Sehwag, Kumble and Zaheer were all turning up rather competing for their place. Good players like Kaif were getting no opportunity.
Chappell shook all the routine methods, told Ganguly that he couldn't choose which test (pitch) he would play and which he wouldn't; Sachin was told that he was burning out and needed rest and re-invention, the regulars were told that they would have to compete with the rookies for their place in the eleven. This was the reason that audacious guys like Raina got opportunities to showcase their fearless striking ability. Fitness and fielding, for which the 'seniors' were not exactly renown, became mandatory. Chappell was eased out eventually, for daring to suggest that the ' God' Sachin drop out for a while, the combined might of the seniors and other affected parties prevailing then.
But certain changes had occurred by then and with rookies playing daringly, the regulars picked up their game and fitness a fair notch but the freshmen were coming in surely and frequently.
We were winning games that we used to lose and Dhoni was fortunate to inherit a depleted senior bench and some daring players like Gambhir, Kohli, Raina and their ilk. Kumble and Zaheers retirement opened up the selectors to the variety of bowlers , also thanks to the IPL, which India never had.
While Chappell's methods were too direct for the Indian prima donnas, the results of his actions are being reaped till date. Dhoni is the last of those who need to be cast aside asap. Imagine the support that his backers in the BCCI ( and funnily also the same people in the CSK) gave him that he lost series after overseas series, gave meaningless replies to media questions and to cap it all, in an unheard of manner, stepped down from Test captaincy and retired midway through a losing spree in Australia in 2014. Any other player in the game would have been pilloried, but we didn't; hero worship at its best. And he is still in the team thanks to Messrs Shastri and co. I remember Gavaskar criticising Dhoni's captaincy in England and suddenly Sunnybhai was having problems getting his payment released from the BCCI. He fell silent, his payments were released and Dhoni had no critics left. Dhoni decides in 2014 that he will play the 2019 WC and is being facilitated thanks to the CSK franchise needing publicity. The fans may think what they want !!!

[silverado]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

Perhaps the team is one of the best Indian teams of the last 20 years. But the selection is the worst ever.

There has been decline in quality in all teams.( We call Pandya an allrounder )

SL, SA, AUS are in transition, PAK is in dumps, NZ is not the same team of past, Less said about WI the better it is.
So if we compare to Ganguly's team, they had to compete with comparatively good quality teams in that Era.

Originally Posted by harry10

Personally I feel Rahane will be a better captain.

Yes Rahane will be a good choice in Tests, along with Kumble as coach.

[FrozeninTime]

Originally Posted by fiestarry

Chappell laid the foundation for a new look team India. Kohli may be OTT but is an involved and committed cricketer.

I will put this way Ex Indian coach Greg like Q in Star trek universe forced BCCI to turn cricket from amateur sport to fully professional one and hastened the process of structural reform in Indian Cricket which today's buddying cricketer are reaping benefits.

However I miss the cricket matches from 1990 - 2007. Everything about cricket was classy then, be it commentary to superb variety bowling and batting techniques.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by fiestarry

I am happy that you derived mirth from my observation; however a keener student of the game (who may be different from the ardent fan of the Men in Blue) would know that it was indeed Guru Greg who challenged the hitherto unquestionable place and form of some of the seniors in the mid 2000s...
...
The fans may think what they want !!!

Indeed seem like every fan has right to believe in his or her view, irrespective of what factual views came out in the public over those years. Thanks for the explanation. I guess 2007 would have swung in our corner if those regulars hadn't meddled in the guru's methods; instead we had to wait 4 more years for Dhoni and team to get lucky at home!

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

I will put this way Ex Indian coach Greg like Q in Star trek universe forced BCCI to turn cricket from amateur sport to fully professional one and hastened the process of structural reform in Indian Cricket which today's buddying cricketer are reaping benefits.

Originally Posted by joslicx

This bit about "weakest Aussie team" is debatable. They retained Ashes 4-0 earlier in the year (but the same team in SA lost 3-1 to the Proteas).

There are no weak or strong teams anymore, at least among the top 5-6 teams. The only recognizable pattern is everybody is winning at home and losing on travel. Lets look at the results for last 3 years:
...
There you have it! Data says most series are just won by hosts.

Excellent point - I'd put in one more layer to try to explain some of those outliers - we have two buckets - spin friendly nations (SE Asia) and pace friendly nations (SA, AUS, NZ, Eng). Mix a team from the first bucket playing in a host from second bucket (and visa versa), and the results are extremely strong for the host nation. Mix two teams from the same bucket, and you tend to have mixed results.

And the point made by @PPS on the toss factor does help it even further.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by joslicx

This bit about "weakest Aussie team" is debatable. They retained Ashes 4-0 earlier in the year (but the same team in SA lost 3-1 to the Proteas).

There are no weak or strong teams anymore, at least among the top 5-6 teams. The only recognizable pattern is everybody is winning at home and losing on travel. Lets look at the results for last 3 years:

SA in India (end 2015) - India won 3-0!
Eng in SA - Eng won 2-1 (this is an outlier)
Aus in SL - SL won 3-0
NZ in SA - SA won 1-0
NZ in Ind - Ind won 3-0
Eng in BD - 1-1!
SA in Aus - SA won 2-1 (another outlier)
Eng in Ind - Ind won 4-0!
Pak in NZ - NZ won 2-0
Pak in Aus - Aus won 3-0
SL in SA - SA won 3-0
Aus in Ind - Ind won 2-1
SA in NZ - SA won 3 match series 1-0 ( another outlier)
SA in Eng - Eng won 3-1
Eng in Aus - Aus won 4-0 (The Ashes 2017 - 18)
Ind in SA - SA won 2-1
Aus in SA - SA won 3-1
Eng in NZ - NZ won 1-0
Pak in Eng - 1-1 draw
SA in SL - SL won 2-0
Ind in Eng - Eng won 4-1
Eng in SL - Eng won 3-0 (this is one big outlier)

Although I cant argue with data, the Aussie cricket team really took a hit after the ball tampering episode. So ideally we should compare the performance before that episode and after. This is indeed the wekaest Australian cricket team in a long long time. Its a decent bowling unit but the batting leaves a lot to be desired especially that Steve Smith and Warner are not in the team. Take out two of the best performing batsmen from the Indian team and see what happens.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by fiestarry

I am happy that you derived mirth from my observation; however a keener student of the game (who may be different from the ardent fan of the Men in Blue) would know that it was indeed Guru Greg who challenged the hitherto unquestionable place and form of some of the seniors in the mid 2000s... Ganguly was in serious decline in form and fitness, Sachin was playing well below his ability, partly due to his injury, and the other regulars Laxman, Sehwag, Kumble and Zaheer were all turning up rather competing for their place. Good players like Kaif were getting no opportunity.
Chappell shook all the routine methods, told Ganguly that he couldn't choose which test (pitch) he would play and which he wouldn't; Sachin was told that he was burning out and needed rest and re-invention, the regulars were told that they would have to compete with the rookies for their place in the eleven. This was the reason that audacious guys like Raina got opportunities to showcase their fearless striking ability. Fitness and fielding, for which the 'seniors' were not exactly renown, became mandatory. Chappell was eased out eventually, for daring to suggest that the ' God' Sachin drop out for a while, the combined might of the seniors and other affected parties prevailing then.
But certain changes had occurred by then and with rookies playing daringly, the regulars picked up their game and fitness a fair notch but the freshmen were coming in surely and frequently.
We were winning games that we used to lose and Dhoni was fortunate to inherit a depleted senior bench and some daring players like Gambhir, Kohli, Raina and their ilk. Kumble and Zaheers retirement opened up the selectors to the variety of bowlers , also thanks to the IPL, which India never had.
While Chappell's methods were too direct for the Indian prima donnas, the results of his actions are being reaped till date. Dhoni is the last of those who need to be cast aside asap. Imagine the support that his backers in the BCCI ( and funnily also the same people in the CSK) gave him that he lost series after overseas series, gave meaningless replies to media questions and to cap it all, in an unheard of manner, stepped down from Test captaincy and retired midway through a losing spree in Australia in 2014. Any other player in the game would have been pilloried, but we didn't; hero worship at its best. And he is still in the team thanks to Messrs Shastri and co. I remember Gavaskar criticising Dhoni's captaincy in England and suddenly Sunnybhai was having problems getting his payment released from the BCCI. He fell silent, his payments were released and Dhoni had no critics left. Dhoni decides in 2014 that he will play the 2019 WC and is being facilitated thanks to the CSK franchise needing publicity. The fans may think what they want !!!

Totally agree with this one. Greg Chappell tried to bring in the ruthless professionalism that is prevalent in Australian cricket or their sports in general to the demi-gods in the process ruffling quite a few feathers. I am sure he left Indian cricket in a better shape than when he first started.

As far as Indian cricket is concerned, we have more ardent fans of the team than lovers of the game else the whole cricket ground would not be quiet when the opposing team hits a boundary or takes a wicket in India. Its one of the reason I love watching test matches in England or Australia where everyone claps for performance irrespective of the side. It is also the reason that when Steve Smith was accused to ball tampering we were baying for his blood but when Sachin was accused of the same in 2011, the Indian fan lost his mind. The narrative in the public domain and even among the players is that it is nationalist to support the Indian cricket team and it becomes an emotive issue not a game.

[PPS]

Originally Posted by harry10

This is the weakest Aussie team in last 3 decades. If we can't win a series from them then Captain and Coach are accountable and changes should be made.

Certainly they should be accountable. But right now BCCI,COA is in a confused state due to internal issues. And we only play our next test series 7-8 months later, by that time everything will be forgotten.

[harry10]

When I say weakest Aussie team it's backed by the fact that they don't have there 2 best players. Smith and Warner. Imagine India playing without Kohli and Pujara. We won't even make 150 in any innings. Also, this was there first win since ball tampering saga. So, we have the best opportunity to win a series in Australia if I dare say since we started touring for the first time. But, Some bad selection and decision making is a hindrance. I hope Kohli/Shastri combo can make better decisions in rest of the matches.

I don't mind Pandya. Yes, he is way below than people like Stokes. But, he gives his all and with bat or ball he tries to contribute. What isn't good is the way Kohli under utilises him. If he is played give him at least 15-20 overs to make a difference. Although I will prefer Vihari over Pandya.

MCG is supposed to be a road. So, we need to play 5 bowlers.

[vibbs]

So they have announced the playing eleven a day before the test!!

KL Rahul, Vijay and Umesh Yadav dropped.

Talent, Mayank Agarwal and Ravindra Jadeja in.

Who will open BTW?

[freedom]

Originally Posted by vibbs

So they have announced the playing eleven a day before the test!!

KL Rahul, Vijay and Umesh Yadav dropped.

Talent, Mayank Agarwal and Ravindra Jadeja in.

Who will open BTW?

Rahane or Rohit will need to open. If they fail then Kohli will conviniently drop them from the next test.

Oh! One more thing. Ravi Shastri needs to be dropped ASAP. He has been an disaster.

Still don't understand why Ishant Sharma is being given a spot. I have been hoping he gets replaces since the last time we toured Australia.

Drop Ravi Shastri!!!! He has been a disaster.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by vibbs

So they have announced the playing eleven a day before the test!!

KL Rahul, Vijay and Umesh Yadav dropped.

Talent, Mayank Agarwal and Ravindra Jadeja in.

Who will open BTW?

Mayank and Vihari will open. Don't see Talent opening as he is a walking wicket then. Tail looks bit better with jadeja in now.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by harry10

Don't see Talent opening as he is a walking wicket then.

Only then?

Originally Posted by vibbs

KL Rahul, Vijay and Umesh Yadav dropped.
Who will open BTW?

This should have been the XI for the Perth test, of course with the exception of Mayank who was not there on time and maybe Bhuvi coming in for Shami. Which makes me wonder why they did not call for him immediately once they knew Shaw was injured. Looks like they were hoping that one of Rahul or Vijay will come good.

Vihari seems to be going the VVS Laxman way. I hope they don't jettison him if e does not succeed at opening.
By the way, why no Kuldeep yet? Do we still need 3 seamers? I wonder why Shami still gets to play, Bhuvi or Kuldeep would have been better picks. Bhuvi especially seems to have gone way down the pecking order. I would pick him over Shami any day, given that his attitude towards batting would also help the team.