[Aroy]

Originally Posted by NPV

A weird ignition problem in the 2 year old Wagon R with stock battery in the last couple of weeks:

Sequence 1:Gear lever at neutral, clutch depressed, key is turned and for a couple of seconds the battery sounds like it's weak so there's just that reluctance to start the engine and then it cranks and all is well.

Sequence 2:When I try a slightly different sequence (Gear lever at neutral, key is turned without depressing clutch) - the car starts normally with the first crank, this time the battery seems perfect and no reluctance or symptom of battery being weak.

I have tried these a few times in the last few days and the pattern is still there. After a successful start with sequence 1, I did not switch off the engine and immediately try sequence 2.
Sequence 2 was tried after a few minutes of driving and switching off the engine for a few minutes.

What could be wrong ?

Battery is slightly weak.

When you press the clutch, you are creating a slight load on the drive train
- with clutch left alone the engine drives the gear box, which in neutral will not connect further.
- with clutch depressed, there is slight slippage between the engine and gearbox which is a load, though small.

With a failing battery and a tight clutch (which does not dis engage fully) the starter motor will falter.
If you drive for a few minutes, the battery will get charged sufficiently to start, even with clutch depressed.

[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by Aroy

- with clutch depressed, there is slight slippage between the engine and gearbox which is a load, though small.

On the contrary, engaging the clutch takes away the slippage load of gearbox and helps you crank better.
That is why it is advised to depress the clutch while cranking so there is minimal load on the starter/battery.
This is what I know - could be wrong.

[vigsom]

Originally Posted by NPV

A weird ignition problem in the 2 year old Wagon R with stock battery in the last couple of weeks:

Sequence 1:clutch depressed, the battery sounds like it's weak

Sequence 2:without depressing clutch) - the car starts normally with the first crank, this time the battery seems perfect

After a successful start with sequence 1, I did not switch off the engine and immediately try sequence 2.
Sequence 2 was tried after a few minutes of driving and switching off

With clutch depressed, load on the engine is less as the gear box N shaft is disconnected. It is just the engine with flywheel. That's all.
You are seeing a normal start up in seq 2 because that is after the engine is fired and run for a while.

Try seq2 under the same conditions as seq1 and you'll find the cranking as bad or maybe worse.
First thing in the morning, check battery idle voltage with a multi meter. Anything less than 12V and your battery is weak.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by NPV

Sequence 1:Gear lever at neutral, clutch depressed, key is turned and for a couple of seconds the battery sounds like it's weak so there's just that reluctance to start the engine and then it cranks and all is well.

Sequence 2:When I try a slightly different sequence (Gear lever at neutral, key is turned without depressing clutch) - the car starts normally with the first crank, this time the battery seems perfect and no reluctance or symptom of battery being weak.

What could be wrong ?

Gearbox idling loading engine normally comes from cold environments where gear oil can become treacle like in consistency. Normally not so here.

Here, in your case the two additional thrust bearing loads are more than the gearbox load.

Anyway, this discussion is academic. Something is wrong with your starter system, most probably a battery on its way out.

Regards
Sutripta

[roshanjathanna]

I20 Crdi will not start until clutch is depressed. Off course, this eliminates some load on the starter. May be this is one the reason my car battery is still holding good though its 6 years old and covered 74K kms.

Please check the battery voltage before starting the car and check the voltage while cranking the car. Basic idea is to check the battery voltage, with load and with out load. This gives the fair idea of the condition of the battery.

[ard1955]

Originally Posted by roshanjathanna

I20 Crdi will not start until clutch is depressed. Off course, this eliminates some load on the starter. May be this is one the reason my car battery is still holding good though its 6 years old and covered 74K kms.

Wow! 6 years and 74k kms? My Alto's battery barely manages to touch the 3 year mark! Which battery is this?

[roshanjathanna]

Originally Posted by ard1955

Wow! 6 years and 74k kms? My Alto's battery barely manages to touch the 3 year mark! Which battery is this?

Hyundai fixed Exide battery 12v 68Ah. I have no complaints til now.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by ard1955

Wow! 6 years and 74k kms? My Alto's battery barely manages to touch the 3 year mark! Which battery is this?

I still have a 2012 battery in my Palio. Apart from buying a good quality battery, my car wasn't used much, so, I would trickle charge it. . Now keeping my fingers crossed as to when it'll be on its way out.

[Swapnil4585]

My Altis does not start.

Today early morning I switched on the ignition and rolled all 4 windows down. Thereafter I cranked the engine, but even before it could start, everything shut off. Now there is no power to anything, no lights on the dashboard. Everything is off. For the record, battery is new, terminals are clean.

Main fuse?

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

Main fuse?

Should be, open the hood and check if nothing is amiss. Even an out of place battery terminal, loose fuse or relays can cause such symptoms. You can refer the fuse box diagram to figure out the fuse.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

My Altis does not start.

Today early morning I switched on the ignition and rolled all 4 windows down. Thereafter I cranked the engine, but even before it could start, everything shut off. Now there is no power to anything, no lights on the dashboard. Everything is off. For the record, battery is new, terminals are clean.

Main fuse?

Could be main fuse.

If the battery is newly fitted, check the terminal connectors. They may have worked loose, it happened in my car. Just tighten the bolts on the connector.

[Swapnil4585]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Should be

Originally Posted by Aroy

Could be main fuse.

The battery terminals were loose. Got them properly fitted. Problem resolved within a minute.

However, I had to face another problem, outlined as under: -

I was on a road trip for 2 days. I started off well. Covered 90 km at good speeds (AC on). Thereafter I filled petrol at a BPCL bunk. Then again I drove for a good 40 km. At this point, the car started to cut off whenever I exceeded 80 kph. I used to pull at one side, wait for 5 minutes, crank again and start driving. Again it used to drive for 15-20 minutes and again it used to cut off. This cycle happened for about 4 times. The AC was on all the times.

Since it was Rangpanchami, whatever roadside mechanics I could locate were closed. Since it also was a hot noon, I had no other choice than to continue. Fortunately, once when the car shut, I could manage to pull in a large tree shade. I opened the hood and waited for nice 30 minutes. Thereafter I did not turn the AC on and kept driving at about 60 kph. The car drove without any drama. Finally near Nashik, I could locate a decent workshop which had scanning facility. The mechanic took a test drive. He red lined the car in every gear. The car drove without any drama at 140-160 kph. Without scanning, he diagnosed the problem to bad fuel.

My questions on this -

1. If fuel was bad, the car should not have started at all after some point.

2. What could be the AC connection here? Do I have a failing condenser?

3. Is the fuel pump packing up? If yes, why did it gave the symptoms only after filling bad fuel?

4. Is my fuel filter clogged? It is neither cleaned nor replaced in about a couple of years. Toyota ASC said that this is not a replaceable part.

5. Is this not a fuel delivery problem but a problem related to electronics?

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

I was on a road trip for 2 days. I started off well. Covered 90 km at good speeds (AC on). Thereafter I filled petrol at a BPCL bunk. Then again I drove for a good 40 km. At this point, the car started to cut off whenever I exceeded 80 kph. I used to pull at one side, wait for 5 minutes, crank again and start driving. Again it used to drive for 15-20 minutes and again it used to cut off. This cycle happened for about 4 times. The AC was on all the times.



My questions on this -

1. If fuel was bad, the car should not have started at all after some point.

2. What could be the AC connection here? Do I have a failing condenser?

3. Is the fuel pump packing up? If yes, why did it gave the symptoms only after filling bad fuel?

4. Is my fuel filter clogged? It is neither cleaned nor replaced in about a couple of years. Toyota ASC said that this is not a replaceable part.

5. Is this not a fuel delivery problem but a problem related to electronics?

Modern fuel injected engines are quite sensitive to the fuel filled. Add to this - various sensors and the ECU which decides to cut the engine as the ECU 'thinks' that something is wrong and its primary job is to safeguard the engine - it will turn off the engine.

Start with filling the tank with known good quality fuel. Add injector cleaner suitable for your fuel when you fill the tank. Start the car and check how it behaves now.

Once when my fuel was low which was indicated by the low fuel alert indicator, the engine will shut off - only when the AC was on. I turned off the AC and the car will run without any drama. Every time I tried the AC, the engine will turn off when the rpm was low. This 'feature' is not mentioned in the owner's manual or anywhere else. I just found this by experiment. Then on I kept the tank always filled before it reaches the low fuel alert stage.
Diagnosing an intermittent problem in anything is always the most difficult thing.

[Swapnil4585]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Modern fuel injected engines are quite sensitive to the fuel filled. Add to this - various sensors and the ECU which decides to cut the engine as the ECU 'thinks' that something is wrong and its primary job is to safeguard the engine - it will turn off the engine.

Start with filling the tank with known good quality fuel. Add injector cleaner suitable for your fuel when you fill the tank. Start the car and check how it behaves now.

Diagnosing an intermittent problem in anything is always the most difficult thing.

I always fill petrol from fixed bunks. This time however I did not. Always fill in Toyota's injector cleaner every 10000 kilometres. I will get the car scanned thoroughly once I return.

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by Swapnil4585

My Altis does not start.

Today early morning I switched on the ignition and rolled all 4 windows down. Thereafter I cranked the engine, but even before it could start, everything shut off. Now there is no power to anything, no lights on the dashboard. Everything is off. For the record, battery is new, terminals are clean.

Main fuse?

Exact same thing happened last week on a neighbors 2011 Punto MJD after cold-rolling down windows on a early morning (before cranking). No lights on dash console, was a easy troubleshooting for me. Took 2 minutes to understand the fuse cover inner verbatim, located and shorted the main fuse (with a few twists of copper wires) and all was OK.