[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

I have to ask you, have you used a chip before on any car? For you it has enough power for Indian roads, but that does not mean it has for everybody. Well the gearbox and brakes are used with the 170bhp engine too so there is no question of them not handling the powerr.

Yes there will be some more wear on components in the engine, but how many kms of the usable life will they really shave off? For the extra power it is worth it. I think this largely depends on the tuning box used. There is much higher risk if it is from an unknown company with a generic tuning box. If the box is built specifically for the car then there should be no problem.

I've used a tuning box on my Innova for 85k kms + without a hitch. And I'm planning one for my 320D too.

Also the extra power and torque can be felt much before the turbo spools so I don't know where 4000 rpm came into the picture.

Hi Akshay,

Every person's needs for power vary and they will need different degrees of thrill. As I mentioned earlier, I am an automobile engineer (mechanical) and have worked with automobile engine research and service with a very large organization earlier. My words come from my experience there - I have not tested not one but hundreds of engines in varying states of tune! Based on the tuning levels, what I have mentioned is the resultant statistics from a typical diesel engine.
Of course different manufacturers build engines to very different standards and you have mentioned Toyota and BMW, which build engines to very high standards. A normal Toyota engine will last 300,000 kms (some even last 500,000 if driven well) without requiring overhauling / reboring. A BMW engine will last 200,000 kms typically, but earlier models used to last as high as 500,000 kms. What I have said is that you can get higher power, but it will bring down the life drastically.

The power out of an engine at a specific rpm is the resultant of the torque at the driven shaft multiplied by omega (which is the rotational speed). For newer engines, the new ECU control units can deliver torque on demand and keep it constant at higher ranges (e.g 320 Nm at 1750-2500 rpm). The point at which the multiplication is highest is the peak power point for the engine.
How chips work is that they increase the peak torque and the peak rpm values, so that there is higher power output. Typically it will bump it up to 380Nm at 1750-3500 rpm. This will be visible in the higher Rpms in terms of gain in performance and real world acceleration, and not so much in low rpms.

For most users, it is a fine balance between the usable life of the engine and power that they get out of the engine. If you see Formula 1 cars, they are run at very high states of tune, and those engines typically don't last more than 3-4 races (less that 1000 kms) at those levels.

Regarding the feeling of higher acceleration with a tuning box, it is due to an increased torque at lower rpms and not because of higher engine power.
The Innova engine is a solid engine and can take the increased power easily, but will bring down the usable life to 200,000 kms.

Regards,
Behemoth

[abishek2222]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

Hi Sushil,

My comments on some of your queries in Bold below:




Thanks Abhishek. I guess Pirelli also will have the same drawback of weak sidewall which our current Goodyears have.

Regards,
Behemoth

Well considering that you are not going to change the tyre with a sidewall cut, will leave you with the advice my tyre person i know quite well left me with when i showed the cut to him, its fine as long as you don't have an another impact at the exact same spot where the cut is, if you do you risk the tyre simply exploding since the cut will giveaway.maybe the odds of that happening is quite less nevertheless do,Take care..

[SushilBajpai]

Originally Posted by abishek2222

Well considering that you are not going to change the tyre with a sidewall cut, will leave you with the advice my tyre person i know quite well left me with when i showed the cut to him, its fine as long as you don't have an another impact at the exact same spot where the cut is, if you do you risk the tyre simply exploding since the cut will giveaway.maybe the odds of that happening is quite less nevertheless do,Take care..

I find the sidewall cuts very disconcerting. After discovering the first one I nearly grounded the vehicle for more than a month. For the second one I switched it with undamaged old tyre. (I had replaced both rear tyres earlier even though only one had sustained the damage.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

Hi Akshay,

Every person's needs for power vary and they will need different degrees of thrill. As I mentioned earlier, I am an automobile engineer (mechanical) and have worked with automobile engine research and service with a very large organization earlier. My words come from my experience there - I have not tested not one but hundreds of engines in varying states of tune! Based on the tuning levels, what I have mentioned is the resultant statistics from a typical diesel engine.
Of course different manufacturers build engines to very different standards and you have mentioned Toyota and BMW, which build engines to very high standards. A normal Toyota engine will last 300,000 kms (some even last 500,000 if driven well) without requiring overhauling / reboring. A BMW engine will last 200,000 kms typically, but earlier models used to last as high as 500,000 kms. What I have said is that you can get higher power, but it will bring down the life drastically.

Sir I think you are making a bit of a blanket statement with regards to tuning boxes. Do you feel the same way about a remap? Don't get me wrong, I totally respect that you are an engineer, but then again so are the guys who are making the tuning boxes and remaps.

Like I said before it largely depends on the company which is making the box, and how much additional stress they are putting on the engine. Yes the box may bring down the life of the engine, but possibly if the user shortens the service intervals for things like oil the reduction of engine life may be negligible. There are people who have run 1.5l on the tuning box, on an Elantra.

Also there is definitely a big difference in torque and the feeling of power all through the rev range. The cars rev much more freely towards the redline. And there are dyno results to prove.

Sorry for the late reply. But I am now a staunch believer of tuning boxes/remaps after seeing the results they produce.

[SushilBajpai]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Sir I think you are making a bit of a blanket statement with regards to tuning boxes. Do you feel the same way about a remap? Don't get me wrong, I totally respect that you are an engineer, but then again so are the guys who are making the tuning boxes and remaps.

Like I said before it largely depends on the company which is making the box, and how much additional stress they are putting on the engine. Yes the box may bring down the life of the engine, but possibly if the user shortens the service intervals for things like oil the reduction of engine life may be negligible. There are people who have run 1.5l on the tuning box, on an Elantra.

Also there is definitely a big difference in torque and the feeling of power all through the rev range. The cars rev much more freely towards the redline. And there are dyno results to prove.

Sorry for the late reply. But I am now a staunch believer of tuning boxes/remaps after seeing the results they produce.

Behemoth and Akshay, could I thank you both, for enlivening the discussion. This discussion is very interesting. The essence of forum is exactly this - to create an eclectic tension. The opposing viewpoints set such a wonderful stage to learn.

I am speaking on behalf of Behemoth here. From what I sense about him, he would not be offended nor take it any other way. As far as I am concerned - and now I possibly speak about the larger community of BHPians - it is this that we forward to.

So keep at it.

Thanks Behemoth, for your inputs. I find them most valuable. Could I also urge you to keep providing the insights that you've gained as an engineer.

I am now reading all this like a good learner and in time, will chip in with my bits.

All we need is Guderian to jump in. The acerbic humor and all!

[Invinsible]

Just like to add there are VW cars with the same engine used in Skoda cars in Europe with 300,000 + kms on speedo with Tuning box or Remap. It all depends how you take care and drive. There are cars with busted engine even without any sought of Remap or tuning box.
VW turbo engines have much stronger internals to handle the additional boost. Most of the engines are running on Borg warner turbo which can handle much higher boost that stock pressure.
Most importantly one has to understand how one would like to use that additional power and torque developed with the help of Remap/chipping.
My Skoda cars are running with Remap since past 3 years with over 90,000kms on it with no issues what so ever.

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by Invinsible

Just like to add there are VW cars with the same engine used in Skoda cars in Europe with 300,000 + kms on speedo with Tuning box or Remap. It all depends how you take care and drive. There are cars with busted engine even without any sought of Remap or tuning box.
VW turbo engines have much stronger internals to handle the additional boost. Most of the engines are running on Borg warner turbo which can handle much higher boost that stock pressure.
Most importantly one has to understand how one would like to use that additional power and torque developed with the help of Remap/chipping.
My Skoda cars are running with Remap since past 3 years with over 90,000kms on it with no issues what so ever.

Yes, the way that the engines are driven determines their actual life. However, each engine is designed with a specific safety factor which is the excess stress that the engine can take under special circumstances. German engines are designed with a 40% safety factor for stress, and hence still will perform under higher states of Tune. The turbo is a very critical component in this chain and it has to delivery higher boost pressures, hence in most cases, a higher capacity turbo is required.
Other components of the drivetrain also are impacted:
For example, the clutch plates and the clutch springs - if the torque output is much higher than the design torque, the clutch slippage will be very high and premature clutch failure will happen. Even the DMF (Dual mass flywheel) is designed for a certain centrifugal force based on the running rpms. If the engine run at higher rpms / shudders due to higher torque, it will lead to failure.
Similarly when the gearbox design is done, it is done with design values for torque at the gear teeth. Excess torque at the gear teeth will lead to gear breakage.
Like this, there are failpoints at each part of the drivetrain, which can fail prematurely in conditions of excess torque / running rpms/ vibrations.
Apart from this, there are also emission norms also to be met with these engines. In most cases, these remaps / tuning boxes will not pass the emission tests in strict EU countries. In India however, this is not as much an issue.

I am not saying that remaps / chips are unsafe - I am just saying that when one opts for a remap / chip , you are taking a higher risk , of course with the added thrill. Each person has their own risk appetite - some people would be happy to enjoy 50,000 kms of trouble free, thrilling driving, while some people would want 200,000 kms of laid back driving - to each his own.
All tuning boxes / remaps are normally tested by the tuners in Short-term test and never long-term (100,000 kms / 50,000 hrs of running), hence very little data is shared on long term effects of remaps/ tuning.
Car manufacturers / engine manufacturers do lots of long term tests for engine life and have hundreds of engines running on engine test beds for thousands of hours. If you get a chance - see Maruti's Engine testing facility or Tata's ERTL (Engine Research and testing lab).

My suggestion is that instead of continuing this discussion on Sushil's thread, we can start a new thread on the Merits / Challenges of Chipping and remaps and have as many users share their experiences. This will be a good knowledge builder for all of us. There were also some TBHP members from Bosch Injection systems - would invite them to also comment.

There was also a comparison of diesel tuning boxes which was done on Motoroids by Prabhakar. Sharing this link for all:
Comparison Of Tuning Boxes - Motoroids

Regards,
Behemoth

[SushilBajpai]

The Yeti is now in its 12th month of ownership. In less than a month I'll need to renew the insurance. Presently it has no-depreciation insurance (Skoda assure) together with Skoda Shield.

I have the following questions:

1. How is Skoda Shield and Skoda Assure intermingled with no-depreciation insurance and warranty? (Skoda dealers are not able to furnish the details - at least not in Pune, and don't respond to e-mails.)

2. What would be status of these schemes if one was to switch the insurer?

3. I'd like to read any first hand experiences with Skoda on this.

[pramods]

Same here, I too have to renew the insurance, I got a call from Skoda Insurance, they promised to furnish all the details via email and postal, this was almost 1week back but I am still waiting for details! I would try to search for the email/phone number to get detail, meanwhile if any one has any info please update this thread so we know what we are getting into.

-Pramod

[shankar.balan]

Behemoth. What exactly is this ECU Software update about? I dont really understand the techno stuff too much so would you PM me please?
I m thinking quite keenly of the Yeti and would like to do this research along the way.
Also if the OEM GoodYear tyres are too soft for our conditions, then which tyres would be the ideal ones for this vehicle?
I know I cannot expect the same life from these tyres as I ve got on my Scorpio Bridgestones and so on, but I would like to know which ones would be best recommended for the Yeti when it comes to replacement time. How often have you had punctures? And how irritating is it to drive on that steel spare wheel when all the others are Alloys?

Much obliged for your inputs.

thanks!

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Behemoth. What exactly is this ECU Software update about? I dont really understand the techno stuff too much so would you PM me please?
I m thinking quite keenly of the Yeti and would like to do this research along the way.
Also if the OEM GoodYear tyres are too soft for our conditions, then which tyres would be the ideal ones for this vehicle?
I know I cannot expect the same life from these tyres as I ve got on my Scorpio Bridgestones and so on, but I would like to know which ones would be best recommended for the Yeti when it comes to replacement time. How often have you had punctures? And how irritating is it to drive on that steel spare wheel when all the others are Alloys?

Much obliged for your inputs.

thanks!

Hi Shankar,
The Ecu update that We had done on our our Yeti was basically a software patch (like windows updates on your PC!) these are normal updates which manufacturers develop to improve engine response and behaviour based on customer feedback, over time. In our case, it was a problem of the Ac getting cutout at low rpms to reduce engine load (which would be perfectly fine in Europe due to colder climates) but in India led to around 30 sec of the ac getting cutoff and in 45 deg ambient and bumper to bumper traffic, led to less cooling. This update was released around 3 months back by Skoda (probably my feedback also helped them pinpoint the issue and they would have done further testing and developed the software update). Essentially todays cars use a lot of electronics to control all the operations and it is vital to have the correct software loaded for each controller - there are 19 on my Ambiente and elegance has even more. Companies like Skoda have 20 years of experience with these systems, whereas Indian manufacturers started using basic controllers around 10 years back, and are stillnot very comfortable with them, and still face a lot of teething issues. Very soon we will be getting our XUV too and will share our experience with that too in a new thread.
The Yeti is a very sensibleand practical package for today's cities and it is a good choice!
The tyres of the Yeti are very good for good roads, and designed for comfort. But the reality is that most cities in India have very bad roads including Gurgaon. The potholed roads cause quite a lot of stress on the tyres and the jagged edges of the potholes cause sidewall damage and rapid wear and tear. In my case, so far I have covered 13,900 kms so far and the tyres are down to 40% treadlife. Max I can expect to run them is another 7000 kms. I will change these tyres for better ones which can withstand rough use as soon as they become available in the stock size (MRF is going to come out with ZLO in December and I may just opt for those). Gradually other manufacturers will also launch good options, hopefully Yokohama Ats /hts and there will be many more offroadable tyres. In my opinion, tyres like Michelin latitude tour hp are the right choice for the Yeti if they become available in the right size.
So far, I have not had a single puncture and the steel spare lies unused, so cant really comment if it would be an inconvenience. It is meant to be a temporary replacement and can be driven upto 80 kmph, till you can get the original wheel repaired. Personally, when I get my tyres changed, I will retain one of my original tyres to use as a full size spare.

All the best for your decision!

Regards,
Behemoth

[shankar.balan]

thanks for the detailed note
much obliged.
ref the last point on full size spare - is not the OEM spare a full sized one?
I know it doesnt have an alloy but despite its steel wheel is not the tyre size spec the same as the other 4 tyres?
will the new Yetis being bought now have this software patch updated on them already?
cheers

Originally Posted by Behemoth

Hi Shankar,
The Ecu update that We had done on our our Yeti was basically a software patch (like windows updates on your PC!) these are normal updates which manufacturers develop to improve engine response and behaviour based on customer feedback, over time.

[Behemoth]

The spare in the Yeti is 195/60 R16 with a steel wheel. It is approx 3.5% smaller in OD than the stock 215/60 R 16. This wheel is also is 20 mm thinner than the stock tyres and takes less space in the boot.Because of the size difference it comes with a warning not to exceed 80kmph. The spare in my Yeti is a Continental CPC2.
Yes all new Yetis post Aug 2011 already have the latest ecu software.
Regards,
Behemoth

[shankar.balan]

thanks bud
i went again today to see the vehicle and indeed noted exactly what you've said below. took a test drive in an Elegance (TD Vehicle) - i liked it very much and so did the wife. especially all that dual zone climate stuff and the sound system - excellent. its the second TD i m taking in a Yeti -the first was nearly 2 years back when they launched it.
glad to hear all Yeti's post Aug 2011 have the latest software.
will keep you posted on the developments on the thoughts towards purchase of the LittleBigFoot going forward
cheers

Originally Posted by Behemoth

The spare in the Yeti is 195/60 R16 with a steel wheel. It is approx 3.5% smaller in OD than the stock 215/60 R 16. This wheel is also is 20 mm thinner than the stock tyres and takes less space in the boot.Because of the size difference it comes with a warning not to exceed 80kmph. The spare in my Yeti is a Continental CPC2.
Yes all new Yetis post Aug 2011 already have the latest ecu software.
Regards,
Behemoth

[SushilBajpai]

Yeti crossed another milestone today. On way back from Ahmednagar, she crossed 20,000 km. These road miles have been full of fun and without any trouble. I guess I've been unlucky with the tires - having suffered splits in the side-walls on two occasions.

Besides this there hasn't been any puncture and post 20,000 km, there is still about 50% tread in tact. Driven this way the tires could last about 40,000 km.

I have not yet had the firmware patch. I spent nearly a full day at Europa workshop last week. First they said they have not heard about the revision in firmware. Then they offered to check online. But for that they'd have hook the vehicle to VAS. Four hours later when they managed to hook the vehicle, it said no update were available. It took them another two hours to release the vehicle. The Skoda dealers are painfully slow and inefficient.

I wrote to JMD. They confirmed that they have the circular about the new firmware, and that they would coordinate with Pune dealers and apprise of them of the procedure. Since then neither JMD nor Europa have returned back. I'll check with them 14th November.

Yeti continues to drive exactly the way it drove on the day I took her out of the showroom. She is the family favorite. That she's comfortable is an understatement, and she continues to return 20+ kmpl FE. In per seat FE she competes with motorcycles.

The interiors are as good as new. The leather seats are pretty comfortable and there is no deterioration in their looks or feel. I occasionally clean them with AutoGlym leather cleanser and apply AutoGlym leather care balm. They are nice and supple.

Yeti is nearly an year old, and I can see some swirl marks. I am thinking about getting it a 3M exterior treatment.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

I m thinking quite keenly of the Yeti and would like to do this research along the way.
Also if the OEM GoodYear tyres are too soft for our conditions, then which tyres would be the ideal ones for this vehicle?
I know I cannot expect the same life from these tyres as I ve got on my Scorpio Bridgestones and so on, but I would like to know which ones would be best recommended for the Yeti when it comes to replacement time. How often have you had punctures? And how irritating is it to drive on that steel spare wheel when all the others are Alloys?

@ Shankar! Yeti will make a fine companion. I haven't so far used the spare. Like I said I've so far been spared the pain of a punctured tyre. The steel spare will look funny (and silly!). However, I don't see it as a big issue.

She will reward you well with her excellent handling, ample power, one of the best gear shifts that I've driven, great FE (that too on diesel). The rear leg is pretty good - in fact I have to believe AutoCar data it is better than BMW X1 and 3 series or for that matter Mercedes C Class.

On long drives it seats four (with their luggage) in comfort.

I only wish that it was available with a DSG box.