Upgrading wheels/tyres on Santro

rks · 13th March 2007, 17:04

@Autoenthusiast, here is the link from Bridgestone India that recommends increasing inflation pressures by 5 psi over manufacturer's recommendation for high-speed driving:

Bridgestone Tyre, Indian Tyre Industry

Click on "Be a safe driver" and read the pop-up window. However, if you are going to follow this recommendation, be sure that you set your pressures accurately. Otherwise if you set your tyre pressures at 35 psi and if there is an error of even 2-3 psi, it could take you dangerously close to the upper limit, which is 40 psi for my S322 tyres; if the upper limit for your tyres is 44 psi, then you need not worry. If you raise your tyre pressures, you will lose out on ride quality, but you will get better handling and pick-up (and mileage too, according to Chris Longhurst; see his tyre bible). There are many websites which recommend an increase in tyre pressures ranging from 3-5 psi for high-speed driving.

Coming to your other question, the only reason you would want to upgrade to wider wheels is for increased performance, especially in high-speed cornering. If you are already satisfied with the performance of your stock wheels in this respect, there is really no need to upgrade, especially if your stock steel rims are in good condition and relatively new. The stability is already increased in your case because of the wider 165 tyres, even with stock wheels. If you do want to upgrade, there is absolutely no harm in doing so provided you choose your alloys correctly (don't upgrade to wider steel rims; they are heavier and anyway alloys are better for tubeless tyres). You can go by Samurai's experience for the Xing and choose the same alloys or one with similar specs. These I think are a good match for the Xing as per Samurai --you can PM him for further details (I am not aware of the specs for the Xing rims, which are different from my old Santro's).

In my case, I have upgraded to 5J alloys (as compared to 4J stock wheels). Further, these alloy wheels have an offset that is 20 mm less as compared to the stock wheel. So if my alloys were 4J, they would still protrude out of the wheel well by 20 mm as compared to the 4J stock wheel. But since they are 5J, i.e., 5" wide, they will protrude out by an additional 1/2 inch, so totally my alloys protrude out of the wheel well by 33 mm as compared to the stock wheels. One advantage of this is that the car has a wider stance and so one gets appreciable increased stability in cornering. But against this, you may have several problems; there may be fouling with the wheel arch on full turn, the car body work will get dirty due to the spray from the tyres (especially in the monsoon season), plus the decreased offset may affect steering/handling and reduce the life of the wheel bearings, which will be subject to additional stress due to the difference in offset. In my case, fortunately steering/handling is still excellent (as good as before, if not better). I just managed to avoid the fouling problem with stock-size tyres (had to remove the mud flaps). But upsized tyres will foul with the inside of the wheel arch on full turn. Don't know about bearing life -- need to observe this over the next few months.

So overall, I would guess that 4.5J is ideal for my Santro, but unfortunately I couldn't find a single shop with 4.5J alloys, neither are they available with the prominent Indian alloy makers (Aura and Neo). You may get imported alloys, but they are expensive and getting a suitable match for the Santro might be difficult.

rks · 17th March 2007, 00:07

Update: Today I took the car to Mumbai. The alloys are superb. Even in fifth gear the car's performance was as good, if not better than the steel wheels. The car was eager to get to 140+ speeds. No noticeable difference in top speed and I think the pick-up, if anything is better than with 4" wheels even in fifth gear. Last time I noticed a slight drop in fifth gear speeds and pick-up, but that may be due to bad fuel or possibly the ECU needed time to adjust to the new conditions.

These alloys are a perfect match for the old Santro. Only concern I have now is bearing life -- would that be affected because of the reduction in offset? Otherwise I am very glad that I went for 5" wheels. Amazingly the clutch shudder problem has sorted itself out. There is no shuddering now in first/reverse gears, probably because the ECU likes the increased acceleration due to better grip.

kpzen · 17th March 2007, 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by rks

There is no shuddering now in first/reverse gears, probably because the ECU likes the increased acceleration due to better grip.

...................

..............................

rks · 17th March 2007, 00:41

OK, let me put it this way. I considered the shudder as due to erratic fuel injection -- maybe clutch wear has something to do with it, and the ECU somehow failed to adjust and that resulted in erratic fuel injection. Now I think with the increased acceleration the ECU might be giving a more stable response and there is no shudder (actually there was a very slight hint just once while crawling at a signal). The issue may re-appear after the clutch has worn out a little more.

kpzen · 17th March 2007, 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by rks

OK, let me put it this way. I considered the shudder as due to erratic fuel injection -- maybe clutch wear has something to do with it, and the ECU somehow failed to adjust and that resulted in erratic fuel injection. Now I think with the increased acceleration the ECU might be giving a more stable response and there is no shudder (actually there was a very slight hint just once while crawling at a signal). The issue may re-appear after the clutch has worn out a little more.

Looks like your new alloys n old tyres generate power by itself to improve the acceleration n the engine/ECM is just an aux element in the car .....

Good luck with your new alloys n newly found acceleration .....I'm outta here.

rks · 17th March 2007, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpzen

Looks like your new alloys n old tyres generate power by itself to improve the acceleration n the engine/ECM is just an aux element in the car .....

Good luck with your new alloys n newly found acceleration .....I'm outta here.

Wider alloys on stock tyres => Greater contact patch+lower unsprung weight => better grip+better handling => better acceleration. Nothing very magical going on here.

By the way, the increase in acceleration, while noticeable, is not phenomenal. Maybe 0-100 kmph which was supposed to be 17.2 secs earlier, might be 16.8 secs now. But it is a fact that the car doesn't stall in second gear even at 5 kmph now, whereas earlier it used to stall at <10 kmph. And the car is quicker through the Mumbai-Pune Expressway by a minute or so (may be up to two mins, not sure) - at least that is my feeling after three trips.

Quoting Samurai from this thread:

Quote:

As I started driving the car with new footware, I was literally taken aback by the amazing improvement in ride quality [...] Then came the performance, it just took off like a sprinter and was much more peppy. It is just amazing how changing tyres totally changes the attributes of the car.

Logically you should have the same issues with Samurai's assertion that you are rasing with respect to mine.

If the shudder due to worn clutch plate were a purely mechanical phenomenon, I would have got it every time I shifted to first/reverse gears (with 4" steel wheels). But I was getting it only after driving in start/stop traffic and after a while the shudder disappeared; naturally I assumed that the ECU is making some adjustments and stabilizing the fuel injection. Now with 5" alloys, the problem has gone away, at least for the moment. I feel that this can only be due to a more stable response from the ECU. As I said, after some more clutch wear, I expect the problem to reappear.

elf · 17th March 2007, 11:50

Hey rks, I have come to the inescapable conclusion, after reading, examining & evaluating the evidence offered in all 35,85,458 posts written by you on this thread, that you have managed to transplant a Cray XT3 in place of your stock Santro ECM.

It seems to have quite a steep learning curve. More than even mine.

And I'm brilliant.

________________________
PS:
Did your alloy wheel dealer install the optional button on your dashboard that you're supposed to get with Neo 4.5J alloys?

If you have it installed & if you press that, the doors open, then swivel into a position parallel to the ground, and they adjust the aerodynamics of the vehicle automatically (thanks to the Santro's brilliant ECM) for immediate take off & extended flight. With the optional extended-range fuel tanks, you can fly from Pune to Pittsburgh non-stop, albeit at 152-153kmh.

Something on the lines of "Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang".

Rider:
Please avoid trying it on crowded city roads as it breaks the Car Chase rules mentioned elsewhere on this forum.

rks · 17th March 2007, 12:02

@elf, funny post. I try to report the facts objectively as I see it. I have said everything I want to say in this thread and it is up to T-BHPians to evaluate what I have said. The ECU will continually make adjustments and there is nothing remarkable about that. I am only speculating on why the clutch shudder, which did make a nuisance of itself every now and then with steel wheels, has all but disappeared for now. Signing off from this thread....

BUSA · 17th March 2007, 12:03

Quote:

17.2 secs earlier, might be 16.8 secs now.

Woww, even i want those types of alloys. After changing Stock steel rims to Alloys on a NHC i didnot find any difference whatso ever in terms of pickup, yes the handling was a wee bit better but thats about it.

Quote:

PS:
Did your alloy wheel dealer install the optional button on your dashboard that you're supposed to get with Neo 4.5J alloys?

If you have it installed & if you press that, the doors open, then swivel into a position parallel to the ground, and they adjust the aerodynamics of the vehicle automatically (thanks to the Santro's brilliant ECM) for immediate take off & extended flight. With the optional extended-range fuel tanks, you can fly from Pune to Pittsburgh non-stop, albeit at 152-153kmh.

Something on the lines of "Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang".

Rider:
Please avoid trying it on crowded city roads as it breaks the Car Chase rules mentioned elsewhere on this forum

Edit - Did you get free FFE and KnN with the Alloys??

rks · 17th March 2007, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BUSA

Woww, even i want those types of alloys. After changing Stock steel rims to Alloys on a NHC i didnot find any difference whatso ever in terms of pickup, yes the handling was a wee bit better but thats about it.
Edit - Did you get free FFE and KnN with the Alloys??

This thread is about Santro. If you are talking about Honda, I recollect Shan2nu saying that his lap times reduced after fitting alloys (I don't remember the exact figure). Check with him. And also look at the quote from Samurai that I just cited. If you cannot understand that the performance will vary from car to car depending on a huge number of factors, I cannot help you. Sorry, that's really it -- no more replies.

JPL · 18th March 2007, 12:03

Hi Guys,

I am planning to upgrade the tyres as well as the rims ( Santro Xing 2006), I have the following questions in my mind with the upgrade.

1. My car has only run for 1000 odd kilometers, how much can I expect if I exchange the tyres in bangalore.

2. Please also refer a trustworthy dealer for the tyres and rims.

3. I dont have power steering on my car, I have the base model to save money for the ICE setup and the wheels, so please recommend a tyre with good control as well as good ride quality ( with size of course, iam a noob to the tyre sizes pcd..offset etc) , but control is a prefrence however if we do have a tyre with both that would be great. Would like to have more insights on this.

Would be really greatful if you guys could help me out.

Thanks,

JPL

kpzen · 18th March 2007, 12:10

JPL

My suggestion for your Santro

Tyre Size: 165/65-13
Alloy size : 13x 5J

Tyres recommended:
1.Bridgestone Turanza ER60
2. MIchelin Energy XM1

Vid6639 · 18th March 2007, 12:35

I only know of a bridgestone dealer here in bangalore. Shiva tyres dollar colony.

Michelin I havent found a reputed dealer in bangalore.

kpzen 165/65 without power steering. wont the steering become a little heavy. I found the 155 OE without PS to be a little heavy at parking speeds.

kpzen · 18th March 2007, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid6639

I only know of a bridgestone dealer here in bangalore. Shiva tyres dollar colony.

Is it the New BEL road behind the petrol pump...!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid6639

Michelin I havent found a reputed dealer in bangalore.

Ishan might open one soon there i guess

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid6639

kpzen 165/65 without power steering. wont the steering become a little heavy. I found the 155 OE without PS to be a little heavy at parking speeds.

Yes u are right but kuch paane ke liye kuch khona padega nah...!!!

As JPL has mentioned he prefers to have better control aka Handling(i assume) so for that he'll need lil fatter rubber than the stock ones ...

Vid6639 · 18th March 2007, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpzen

Is it the New BEL road behind the petrol pump...!!

Ishan might open one soon there i guess

Yes u are right but kuch paane ke liye kuch khona padega nah...!!!

As JPL has mentioned he prefers to have better control aka Handling(i assume) so for that he'll need lil fatter rubber than the stock ones ...

yup the new BEL road one behind the bunk opposite barista. pretty decent guy.

ah yes Ishan tyres. Ishan jaldi khol yaar. we can expand from delhi bangalore and mumbai. I'll take care of your bangalore office.

yeah I guess since handling will be better, it's worth going for the 165.

13th March 2007, 17:04	#166
rks BANNED Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: ?? Posts: 1,238 Thanked: 17 Times	@Autoenthusiast, here is the link from Bridgestone India that recommends increasing inflation pressures by 5 psi over manufacturer's recommendation for high-speed driving: Bridgestone Tyre, Indian Tyre Industry Click on "Be a safe driver" and read the pop-up window. However, if you are going to follow this recommendation, be sure that you set your pressures accurately. Otherwise if you set your tyre pressures at 35 psi and if there is an error of even 2-3 psi, it could take you dangerously close to the upper limit, which is 40 psi for my S322 tyres; if the upper limit for your tyres is 44 psi, then you need not worry. If you raise your tyre pressures, you will lose out on ride quality, but you will get better handling and pick-up (and mileage too, according to Chris Longhurst; see his tyre bible). There are many websites which recommend an increase in tyre pressures ranging from 3-5 psi for high-speed driving. Coming to your other question, the only reason you would want to upgrade to wider wheels is for increased performance, especially in high-speed cornering. If you are already satisfied with the performance of your stock wheels in this respect, there is really no need to upgrade, especially if your stock steel rims are in good condition and relatively new. The stability is already increased in your case because of the wider 165 tyres, even with stock wheels. If you do want to upgrade, there is absolutely no harm in doing so provided you choose your alloys correctly (don't upgrade to wider steel rims; they are heavier and anyway alloys are better for tubeless tyres). You can go by Samurai's experience for the Xing and choose the same alloys or one with similar specs. These I think are a good match for the Xing as per Samurai --you can PM him for further details (I am not aware of the specs for the Xing rims, which are different from my old Santro's). In my case, I have upgraded to 5J alloys (as compared to 4J stock wheels). Further, these alloy wheels have an offset that is 20 mm less as compared to the stock wheel. So if my alloys were 4J, they would still protrude out of the wheel well by 20 mm as compared to the 4J stock wheel. But since they are 5J, i.e., 5" wide, they will protrude out by an additional 1/2 inch, so totally my alloys protrude out of the wheel well by 33 mm as compared to the stock wheels. One advantage of this is that the car has a wider stance and so one gets appreciable increased stability in cornering. But against this, you may have several problems; there may be fouling with the wheel arch on full turn, the car body work will get dirty due to the spray from the tyres (especially in the monsoon season), plus the decreased offset may affect steering/handling and reduce the life of the wheel bearings, which will be subject to additional stress due to the difference in offset. In my case, fortunately steering/handling is still excellent (as good as before, if not better). I just managed to avoid the fouling problem with stock-size tyres (had to remove the mud flaps). But upsized tyres will foul with the inside of the wheel arch on full turn. Don't know about bearing life -- need to observe this over the next few months. So overall, I would guess that 4.5J is ideal for my Santro, but unfortunately I couldn't find a single shop with 4.5J alloys, neither are they available with the prominent Indian alloy makers (Aura and Neo). You may get imported alloys, but they are expensive and getting a suitable match for the Santro might be difficult. Last edited by rks : 13th March 2007 at 17:14.
	() Thanks

17th March 2007, 00:07	#167
rks BANNED Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: ?? Posts: 1,238 Thanked: 17 Times	Update: Today I took the car to Mumbai. The alloys are superb. Even in fifth gear the car's performance was as good, if not better than the steel wheels. The car was eager to get to 140+ speeds. No noticeable difference in top speed and I think the pick-up, if anything is better than with 4" wheels even in fifth gear. Last time I noticed a slight drop in fifth gear speeds and pick-up, but that may be due to bad fuel or possibly the ECU needed time to adjust to the new conditions. These alloys are a perfect match for the old Santro. Only concern I have now is bearing life -- would that be affected because of the reduction in offset? Otherwise I am very glad that I went for 5" wheels. Amazingly the clutch shudder problem has sorted itself out. There is no shuddering now in first/reverse gears, probably because the ECU likes the increased acceleration due to better grip.
	() Thanks

17th March 2007, 00:41	#169
rks BANNED Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: ?? Posts: 1,238 Thanked: 17 Times	OK, let me put it this way. I considered the shudder as due to erratic fuel injection -- maybe clutch wear has something to do with it, and the ECU somehow failed to adjust and that resulted in erratic fuel injection. Now I think with the increased acceleration the ECU might be giving a more stable response and there is no shudder (actually there was a very slight hint just once while crawling at a signal). The issue may re-appear after the clutch has worn out a little more.
	() Thanks

17th March 2007, 11:50	#172
elf BANNED Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 1,039 Thanked: 13 Times View My Garage	Hey rks, I have come to the inescapable conclusion, after reading, examining & evaluating the evidence offered in all 35,85,458 posts written by you on this thread, that you have managed to transplant a Cray XT3 in place of your stock Santro ECM. It seems to have quite a steep learning curve. More than even mine. And I'm brilliant. ________________________ PS: Did your alloy wheel dealer install the optional button on your dashboard that you're supposed to get with Neo 4.5J alloys? If you have it installed & if you press that, the doors open, then swivel into a position parallel to the ground, and they adjust the aerodynamics of the vehicle automatically (thanks to the Santro's brilliant ECM) for immediate take off & extended flight. With the optional extended-range fuel tanks, you can fly from Pune to Pittsburgh non-stop, albeit at 152-153kmh. Something on the lines of "Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang". Rider: Please avoid trying it on crowded city roads as it breaks the Car Chase rules mentioned elsewhere on this forum. Last edited by elf : 17th March 2007 at 11:55.
	() Thanks

17th March 2007, 12:02	#173
rks BANNED Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: ?? Posts: 1,238 Thanked: 17 Times	@elf, funny post. I try to report the facts objectively as I see it. I have said everything I want to say in this thread and it is up to T-BHPians to evaluate what I have said. The ECU will continually make adjustments and there is nothing remarkable about that. I am only speculating on why the clutch shudder, which did make a nuisance of itself every now and then with steel wheels, has all but disappeared for now. Signing off from this thread....
	() Thanks

18th March 2007, 12:03	#176
JPL BHPian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: XXXXX Posts: 241 Thanked: 0 Times	Hi Guys, I am planning to upgrade the tyres as well as the rims ( Santro Xing 2006), I have the following questions in my mind with the upgrade. 1. My car has only run for 1000 odd kilometers, how much can I expect if I exchange the tyres in bangalore. 2. Please also refer a trustworthy dealer for the tyres and rims. 3. I dont have power steering on my car, I have the base model to save money for the ICE setup and the wheels, so please recommend a tyre with good control as well as good ride quality ( with size of course, iam a noob to the tyre sizes pcd..offset etc) , but control is a prefrence however if we do have a tyre with both that would be great. Would like to have more insights on this. Would be really greatful if you guys could help me out. Thanks, JPL
	() Thanks

18th March 2007, 12:10	#177
kpzen Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Faridabad Posts: 5,610 Thanked: 1,876 Times View My Garage	JPL My suggestion for your Santro Tyre Size: 165/65-13 Alloy size : 13x 5J Tyres recommended: 1.Bridgestone Turanza ER60 2. MIchelin Energy XM1
	(1) Thanks

18th March 2007, 12:35	#178
Vid6639 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 17,728 Thanked: 43,463 Times View My Garage	I only know of a bridgestone dealer here in bangalore. Shiva tyres dollar colony. Michelin I havent found a reputed dealer in bangalore. kpzen 165/65 without power steering. wont the steering become a little heavy. I found the 155 OE without PS to be a little heavy at parking speeds.
	() Thanks