[harit]

Originally Posted by priyo

On close look, photo no 5 shows a modification which means some problem was encountered in the electrical system. You see , next to the speedometer a round amp meter, which is not stock ...........

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Over the years a surprising majority of older cars are retrofitted with an auxiliary ammeter, usually from Yenkay or VDO, and more recently pricol. I guess batteries used to be much less reliable, as were the dynamos .............

Well, the added Ampere meter was almost standard on cars of the sixties. The reason was the dynamo, when this failed very often the red warning light did not work. Also, the driver could see the indicator showing that the battery is charging. And the batterywalla got some extra income. What is unusual is that they actually cut this panel. Normally they added a bracket and fitted it below the dash, visible but no major damage. And batteries at that time were good for two to three years on an average, depending upon maintainance and correctness in ampereage. Some used to fit under rated batteries.

Cheers harit

[thebulletboy]

Originally Posted by priyo

A round analog clock is supposed to be be here.

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Unfortunately most of the time to fit these guages there is a hole cut in the dash

Originally Posted by harit

What is unusual is that they actually cut this panel.

I don't think the dash has been cut in this case. priyo has mentioned a factory fitted clock on the dash between the 2 larger gauges.

The car would have come from the factory with a clock delete plate (pictured below), which would have been replaced with the accessory clock, had the buyer opted for it at the dealership.
I'd assume that in this case the first owner did not opt for a clock, and later the clock delete plate was removed and replaced with a local ammeter, rather than have an ugly gauge plate installed below the dash.




Picture courtesy: http://www.ctcautoranch.com/Used%20P...-Pages/GM.html

[Prabal]

Originally Posted by harit

And batteries at that time were good for two to three years on an average, depending upon maintainance and correctness in ampereage. Some used to fit under rated batteries.

Batteries could be flogged for longer back in the day as they were mostly unsealed ones in hard rubber casing, enabling replacement of the plates in a dead cell with new ones. Having said that, I have seen my father use one particular battery (without reconditioning, nothing) for seven years, believe it or not. It was either an Exide or a Dagenite. He religiously practised the painful procedure of always cranking his car first time in the day with the starting handle (because he believed that a battery's maximum juice gets drained at first start, and at a discharge rate rapid enough to reduce battery life in the long run). The handle-cranking procedure was followed as a passionate ritual, something a distant observer could have been forgiven for mistaking as an ancient tribal invocation! First priming the engine without switching on the ignition with a a few slow rotations, and then switching on the ignition, and invariably managing to fire her up in one go. A 1000-watt beam on his face and a short jig each time could also be likened to a successful rain dance culminating in the first few rain drops, while the engine settled down to a steady idle. This was of course in the days of old-tech automobiles (whether newly manufactured Indian or old imported foreign metal) and batteries. Of course, whether using the starter motor or using the starter handle-cranking method, the ignition timing as well as carburetion had to be optimum so that the engine fired up with no fuss, helping prolong the battery. Apparently, the starter handle-starting, without switching on the ignition until the engine was primed also helped prolonged engine life by building up some lubrication from the chamber to the upper reaches (old crankshafts had little spoon-like scoops). Mustbe something to it. The old Amby still drives like new with more than two lakh miles on the clock of the standard motor!

[priyo]

Originally Posted by Prabal

Batteries could be flogged for longer back in the day as they were mostly unsealed ones in hard rubber casing, enabling replacement of the plates in a dead cell with new ones. Having said that, I have seen my father use one particular battery (without reconditioning, nothing) for seven years, believe it or not. It was either an Exide or a Dagenite. He religiously practised the painful procedure of always cranking his car first time in the day with the starting handle (because he believed that a battery's maximum juice gets drained at first start, and at a discharge rate rapid enough to reduce battery life in the long run). The handle-cranking procedure was followed as a passionate ritual, something a distant observer could have been forgiven for mistaking as an ancient tribal invocation! First priming the engine without switching on the ignition with a a few slow rotations, and then switching on the ignition, and invariably managing to fire her up in one go. A 1000-watt beam on his face and a short jig each time could also be likened to a successful rain dance culminating in the first few rain drops, while the engine settled down to a steady idle. This was of course in the days of old-tech automobiles (whether newly manufactured Indian or old imported foreign metal) and batteries. Of course, whether using the starter motor or using the starter handle-cranking method, the ignition timing as well as carburetion had to be optimum so that the engine fired up with no fuss, helping prolong the battery. Apparently, the starter handle-starting, without switching on the ignition until the engine was primed also helped prolonged engine life by building up some lubrication from the chamber to the upper reaches (old crankshafts had little spoon-like scoops). Mustbe something to it. The old Amby still drives like new with more than two lakh miles on the clock of the standard motor!

The more I look at the photos the more I am led to believe that this Reviera has more miles then the 5 k as stated. When someone imported an above average American car in the 50s-60s, they took good care of it, especially if it was a diplomatic corps import as spare parts are no problem , the problem was to find a mechanic. This car has been run to perhaps 105 k and more , the interior certainly shows Rough use. Anyone who remembers Impalas bought from STC or directly imported would recall how lovingly the local gentry would put covers on the seats. The engine compartment looks like it has seen more use then 5k. Notic e the red stickey tape on the radiator hose. Although, there seems to be no rust, signs of poor maintenance are all over. My discussion is not to discourage a restoration project but to simply question the claim that this car is one of the rare 'barn find ' that we very often see State side. A friend has very aptly posted a photo of the instrument cluster with the clock and also a photo of the cover in case a clock is not ordered . May be the local mechanic saw a blank cover and decided to stick a Yenkay meter there instead of trying to see why the charging indicator in the cluster was not working. May be voltage regulator was nor repairable hence the charging system was modified. I stll question as to why a Yenkay or any other amp meter was stuck in the center. Harit has pointed out the addition of instruments . Certainly, this has been done all along if the car was customized . A mention of a rev counter is made - a tachometer ? I have owned several GM & Ford automobiles and can state that techometers were not available from the factory in the 50s -60s unles it was a high performance muscle car like a Pontiac GTO, Chevy 348, Plymouth with a hemi. Many owners added techs and amp meters if they souped up their cars. And they were usually hung under the dash ! This Buick, from the photos , appears to be a run of the mill, stock, from the factory, non-customized, no two-tone color , stock car and therefore, no need for added tech or any other instrument. I agree that car batteries were not as good then as they are now. Another point is that generators were replaced by alternators in mid 50s and added to the reliability of the electrical system.

[the mole]

Originally Posted by priyo

The more I look at the photos the more I am led to believe that this Reviera has more miles then the 5 k as stated.

I tend to agree with you on this point. I refer to the Thakkar Dodge Charger. One had to see the car to believe factory fresh that was a genuine low use well maintained car. even some of the carpets still had a tag on them.

Leather upholstery does not start to come apart after 5000 miles no way. I also tend to believe that this car has definately not run 105K miles. Somewhere down the line someone has fudged the mileage. They sometimes did that when an engine was overhauled.

But a good car never the less. But for me not a true muscle car has the power but no body muscles

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Over the years a surprising majority of older cars are retrofitted with an auxiliary ammeter, usually from Yenkay or VDO, and more recently pricol. Unfortunately most of the time to fit these guages there is a hole cut in the dash.

Dear Karl - this reminds me of the methodology used to cut "that hole" in the dash. They would mark and punch a center, drill a small hole, enlarge it to 8mm and then there used to be single point tool made with an 8mm diameter shaft which was assembled in the portable drill machine and rotated on the dash. The whole piece would come clean off the main panel. Minor filing with a half round file finished the job. The name of the person who did this was the late "Gordhanbhai". I had seen him doing it, I even got it done for my cars at that time.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[harit]

Originally Posted by Prabal

Batteries could be flogged for longer back in the day as they were mostly unsealed ones in hard rubber casing, enabling replacement of the plates in a dead cell with new ones.........

These posts bring back memories of long forgotton practices. How times have changed in India after modern automobiles have become available from showrooms.
In those times you could buy branded batteries, or assembled batteries. I always bought branded because there was atleast some warranty available. Then there were the repaired batteries, these for me were a no no, but people did have a choice.
But an Amby with 200K miles! (not KM) sounds a bit ambitious. For Bombay, Amby's were driven all the way from Calcutta on Kerosene and engines then could not last 200K whatever. Added to that, we had bad quality fuel, remember when Maruti was first introduced oil companies were forced to improve petrol quality, other added additives when filling up.

Originally Posted by priyo

The more I look at the photos the more I am led to believe that this Reviera has more miles then the 5 k as stated. When someone imported an above average American car in the 50s-60s, they took good care of it, especially if it was a diplomatic corps import as spare parts are no problem , the problem was to find a mechanic......

Well, there was a different culture. The average wealthy often had a desire to own an imported car. The range was limited to what was available with STC. If I remember correctly, STC had a huge place in Delhi and cars bought there went to dealers all over India.
The next was STC Mumbai, which also had nice cars. And Madras which had the least, but even their cars came to Bombay for reselling. Maybe there were STC showrooms in Calcutta and Hydeabad, I don't remember.
So one had a choice from the stock. Best selling cars were Mercedes, Honda, Ford, Toyota, the odd cars did not sell so well. Ofcourse there were exceptions like the Porsche and BMW which Vijay bought, or the Rolls Phantom V which Pranlal later got in resale. Obscure cars were ofcourse cheaper, but difficult to maintain, and often left aside. All cars needed maintainance, few owners understood that, the capable garages were like Swadi's, Apex etc. which were also not cheap. But cars maintained by them generally ran longer. Its just like a BMW, maintainance at the dealer is expensive, the roadside mechanic is cheaper, and generally not many 7 year old Beemers are seen on the road. In recent times Beemers are very often seed abandoned on the road, remember the 7 series car at Kala Ghoda? The biggest hurdle was the maintainance of automatic gearboxes. these would be 'killed' and then replaced with some manual box, and often a mismatch. And we also dieselised these cars.

Originally Posted by the mole

I tend to agree with you on this point. I refer to the Thakkar Dodge Charger. One had to see the car to believe factory fresh that was a genuine low use well maintained car. even some of the carpets still had a tag on them..... I also tend to believe that this car has definately not run 105K miles. Somewhere down the line someone has fudged the mileage. They sometimes did that when an engine was overhauled....

The Thakkar car came from Gujrat, a student brought it back from USA and used it very little. Fudging of milage was not done after engine overhaul, it was done before resale to get a better price. There was this compound at Chowpatti where an excellent electrician would dismantle the dash and clock the car. He worked on almost all type of cars, and brokers would be seen coming and going with their latest offerings. A very very high number of cars were clocked. Most STC cars were won by brokers at their auctions.

There was another service, car valeting by Anna and his boys. Nobody in Bombay could clean a car better than his team, they even used toothbrushes to reach crevices, when the car was sold it really was clean.

These three posts took me back to the 1980's, I have seen these activities when these were the norm.

Cheers harit

[wasif]

LOL, true thsi is bringing back great old memories. We used to have to get the 6V batteries buit using old casings as no modern company in India made car sized 6V batteries then.

Then there was the business with the re treaded ties, also popular in those day

Then the clocing issue, we used to buy three year old Maruti cars, usually with mileage in 60/70K range. Then fix the suspension give them a coat of paint, pull out the sun film and seat covers, they would be fresh again and of cource one was compelled to clock them to 23K KM to match the refreshed look and sell them on.

[priyo]

Cars that were imported duty free had to be sold to STC. There was a huge lot on Rajpur Road, Reg. Transport Office, in old Delhi that used to be full of mostly American cars, USAId, American Embassy, Ford Foundation being the largest importers. I beg to differ with Harit on the makes that were offered. Honda did not exist in India in the 60s or 70s. Toyota had Corona and a larger model named Toyopet . These were mostly from embassies of Asian countries. There were Holdens, Opels, many English makes. BMWs were not a popular . Of course Mercedes was a most desirable make. Auctions were held regularly. I recall a Ferrari sold for the unheard of price of 6 lacs.
So, who bought most of these cars? Private Taxi operators who would try to outbid any one because these cars would become DLZ taxis. Delhi had Impalas, MBs as DLZ taxis. For the peasents , there were DLY taxis, mostly Ambys. Most American cars were manual shift and six cylinder as V8 & Auto were considered un fixable by Indian mechanics and the parts were hard to get in the open market.
India Tourism Development Corpn. on imported for its own fleet of DLZ taxis, first several hundred 1959 Plymouth Belvedere ( all two tone blue & right hand drive, slant six engine & Manual shift) and then a few years later 1964 Dodge Polara, again the basic model (metallic beige ). These cars were also allotted to other states as DLZ, mainly to cater to our foreign tourist trade. What happened to them after there useful life with ITDC, is not known. At least they were not seen being butchered in Hindi movies !
As a side note, in the 50s, I saw Chevy, Ford and Plymouth black/yellow taxis, then Hindustan 14, Austin , Hillman & Landmaster and later of course Ambys. Recently I saw the old Film 'Aarzoo' (Rajender Kumar, Sadhana & Mehmood) . It had, guess what ?
two 1949 Hudson Hornet black/yellow taxis at Srinagar Airport and also a black 1946-47 Dodge Fluid drive in which Rajender Kumar has an accident !

Please see photos of 1959 Chevrolet Impala , Fazal Bhais's posting . What a nice clean car , now on way to complete restoration, as if it needed it !

[harit]

Originally Posted by priyo

Cars that were imported duty free had to be sold to STC. ......... So, who bought most of these cars? Private Taxi operators who would try to outbid any one because these cars would become DLZ taxis. Delhi had Impalas, MBs as DLZ taxis. ..........India Tourism Development Corpn. on imported for its own fleet of DLZ taxis, first several hundred 1959 Plymouth Belvedere ............As a side note, in the 50s, I saw Chevy, Ford and Plymouth black/yellow taxis, then Hindustan 14, Austin , Hillman & Landmaster and later of course Ambys. ...............Please see photos of 1959 Chevrolet Impala , Fazal Bhais's posting . What a nice clean car , now on way to complete restoration, as if it needed it !

Hi Priyo, good post but a few corrections will be in order.
Cars which were imported duty free had to be given to STC, who gave the depreciated value and made a killing. But also those cars imported by the eligible and where duty was paid, could not be sold for 5 years and a bond was issued. This had to be cancelled, and those who had to sell their vehicles due to circumstances before 5 years were forced to give it to STC again at depreciated rates. And those cars which never made it past clearance for whatever reason surrendered the cars to customs and the customs auctioned them off. There were also tourists who brought their vehicle along on a carnet, they did not pay duty and if they had problems they also surrendered their vehicle to customs, not to STC.

As far as the model range went, it was European and American cars in the 1960's and early Seventies, but the Japanese became stronger and pushed the Americans aside. Holdens came in because of RHD, as did Australian Fords. German cars were all available in RHD. The Americans themselves shifted to Japanese cars, as did the Russians. In fact many Russians did take their cars back with them, I have seen a 2CV Citroen go, and a Chevy Impala 197odd. And their many Toyota's. Many of the Russians diplomatic employees learnt driving in India. It is true that Honda's came in later, maybe late 1970's but they were always in demand. Datsun was very popular, then they became Nissan somehow their popularity in India sank and very few were seen in comparison to Toyota and Datsun. I do not remember a Ferrari coming from STC, but exotic cars like Porsche, BMW stretch, Alfa Romeo and sports cars were also bid for by private individuals who had good taste.

Most of the cars were sold to dealers.
One day I walked into the STC showroom and saw a Chevy Nova with Taxi plates being taken in. I walked in and had a chat with one person there. He told me that STC sells these cars for use as Tourist Taxis at a concession. And these cars were returned after a few years of use. So there was indeed a special arrangement for Taxi's.

ITDC imported cars for taxi use, the Mercedes 200D 123 series for the Asian Games all became ITDC cars and were posted all over India. The Government imported the Plymouths and Dodges, and I know that these cars were used as taxi's but also as Governor Cars, Air India got some, and many went to public sector undertakings. ITDC also auctioned off the cars after their service was over. Many of them had to be reconditioned.

The taxi's in India were big American cars, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, etc. Later when smaller cars were introduced like Austin, Morris, they were termed as baby taxi's. Later they became the norm, the big cars were replaced by smaller cars.

Regarding Fazalbhai's 59 pillarless car, that was to be preserved as it appeared at the Circus show in Delhi. The owner mentioned that being strongly told not to respray the car, he would keep her as is but will not use her in this condition.

This post brought me back to 3 decades back, nostalgia, those times were different and will be soon forgotton.

Cheers harit

[Prabal]

Originally Posted by harit

In those times you could buy branded batteries, or assembled batteries. I always bought branded because there was atleast some warranty available. Then there were the repaired batteries, these for me were a no no, but people did have a choice.

The branded batteries usually came with their brand-name stamped out on the casing itself, while the locally-assembled ones normally sported a sticker bearing the name of the shop/business. Having said that, the 'local' batteries also came with a warranty. I don't remember if many of them gave one year warranty, but I remember six-month and nine-month warranties also! And, they usually stood by their offer, if the warranty needed to be invoked. And the batteries did quite well too for a longer period, if you knew what to do on your part as the user! It's a huge subject, so I shan't get into the subject of maintenance and how to prolong the life of an automotive storage battery here. Anyway, the branded ones were always warrantied for one year in those days usually. Can't remember if the longer warranties started with Amaron, or some others had taken it to two years and three years before. Coming back to the 'local' batteries - one could buy them new, or have one reconditioned, even get a branded one reconditioned for the dead cell. Basically 12v batteries (actually 12.6 => 2.1v per cell x 6 cells = 12.6v) have 6 cells, and if one or a few more cells went kaput, one could get those replaced with new plates, provided the good cells were healthy.

Well, we had no qualms about using 'local' new batteries occasionally, or to even get a faulty cell or two of the old one (branded or local) reconditioned. Some of them were pretty big names in the locality, you know! A little corollary - You could source the exact Bata shoe made by a vendor if you knew where to look, at a fraction of the cost, with only the Bata label missing! The trick was to get the right size for your vehicle, 9-plate, 11-plate etc. for optimum amperage to your vehicle's need. And good quality plates to start with played a big role. A rapid discharge rate is anathema for a storage battery..

Originally Posted by Prabal

Mustbe something to it. The old Amby still drives like new with more than two lakh miles on the clock of the standard motor!

Originally Posted by harit

But an Amby with 200K miles! (not KM) sounds a bit ambitious. For Bombay, Amby's were driven all the way from Calcutta on Kerosene and engines then could not last 200K whatever. Added to that, we had bad quality fuel, remember when Maruti was first introduced oil companies were forced to improve petrol quality, other added additives when filling up.

No ambition here; it's a milestone achieved long time back! Whether the fact that my father drove our Amby (as I have heard, since the car predates me) straight out of Hind Motors' factory at Utarpara himself, giving nobody a chance to introduce kerosene to it helped, or Mark Is were generally better put together, I really can't tell. But his knowledge and maintenance routine were remarkable. All that I know about automobiles is thanks to him, and partly my professors. Most of you probably wouldn't even know which part of one side of a spanner goes where!! Anyway, on another side I've seen a truck in the army whose engine was designed to run on multi-fuel (anybody knows which??) clock hundreds of thousands of kms on an assorted diet! But yes, prolonged usage of kerosene must have harmed any IC engine - they sure sounded funny when firing on kero, especially the autorickshaws! But our Amby has run 200k miles (not 'whatever', but miles = 320k kms!) and she stands in testimony to that in our garage back home still!

Btw, Maruti introduced OHC to India with an engine boasting new technology and better tolerances. However, one of the reasons that older cars got away with lower octane rating was because of their lower compression ratios, compared to the new breed. Octane-rating aside, quality of fuel is another matter altogether. Cars actually got allergic to that more with the advent of fuel injection! Maybe we also got less, or no-adulterated fuel where we used to stay!! But I wonder why even in this day and age, amongst the modern cars some need an overhaul early, even within 50k kms, while some just go on and on...

Originally Posted by harit

Maybe there were STC showrooms in Calcutta and Hydeabad, I don't remember.

Yes, Calcutta definitely had an STC showroom - a big corner building.
Edit:
I don't remember exactly where now, but it was somewhere near Alipore/ Lansdowne Road probably. I'm not very good with the civilian localities of Cal, as I've mostly stayed in the cantonment areas, and that too for a cumulative period of totally 3 years of my life!

[manishalive]

Prabal,

The multifuel engine was of Man called shakti-man truck in India. In the IC engines book there is one topic on 'M' type combustion chamber.

[Prabal]

Originally Posted by manishalive

The multifuel engine was of Man called shakti-man truck in India. In the IC engines book there is one topic on 'M' type combustion chamber.

Spot on, Manish! Yes, the MAN's M-Type combustion, with the spherical depression in the piston, for tangential spraying of fuel in a swirling motion caused by the special inlet valve...! Gosh!

[deutscheafrikar]

Originally Posted by wasif

Then there was the business with the re treaded ties, also popular in those day

Then the clocing issue, we used to buy three year old Maruti cars, usually with mileage in 60/70K range. Then fix the suspension give them a coat of paint, pull out the sun film and seat covers, they would be fresh again and of cource one was compelled to clock them to 23K KM to match the refreshed look and sell them on.

Re thread as in Re grooving the tyres?
Wasif a coat of paint on a three year old car? Those cars always sold better with original paint. A repainted car was a no-no. And I would catch you on the repainted car & clocking of meter on a 60/70k km to 23k km car. You'd need to have 5 tyres of a set for such low milage and the date would have to match close to the manufacturing year and month of the car, for all 5 tyres even the spare!!!
A same set of tyres could tell you how genuine the milage was of a much older maruti, that and original paint.

[wasif]

Originally Posted by deutscheafrikar

Re thread as in Re grooving the tyres?
Wasif a coat of paint on a three year old car? Those cars always sold better with original paint. A repainted car was a no-no. And I would catch you on the repainted car & clocking of meter on a 60/70k km to 23k km car. You'd need to have 5 tyres of a set for such low milage and the date would have to match close to the manufacturing year and month of the car, for all 5 tyres even the spare!!!
A same set of tyres could tell you how genuine the milage was of a much older maruti, that and original paint.

Thats the reason I didnt sell any to you.

Some of them didnt need any paint, just a good buffing n waxing was all that was required.

We used to move 4 to 5 of them each month, around 10 to 12K on each was not a bad deal.

In those days nobody inspected the tires. The Maruti engine was such a gem but the suspension would be falling apart driving on Indian roads for three year and the parking lights n tail lights would fade.

Polish / remove seat covers, tint etc, new battery, tail light n parking light covers, new suspension bushes adn the cars would be back to as new......not to forget the clocking

There was an entire industry doing re treaded tires, they would cut the top of a bald tire and fit like a cap on it with grooves and the tire would be sold as a re treaded tire.