[sri_tesla]

The most bizarre marketing award goes to Mahindra for its new XUV400 ad mocking the charging point operators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhhpPp5ewyw

We have seen automobile companies mocking competition, some EV companies mocking ICE vehicles or petrol stations, and vice-versa but mocking charging point operators in an EV ad is beyond stupid. Just recently they partnered with Jio BP and Statiq for charging points installation at Mahindra dealerships as they could not do it themselves. People are posting pics of XUV400 being charged at one of these so-called Sunny chargers.





Also, this ad claiming the 456 km range is very misleading. It's not real-world range. Another reason for ARAI to adopt the WLTP rating system for the EV range. They are also milking the Rs 15.99 lakh starting price with these ads but that variant will only be available from Diwali 2023 which is long way away.

[vtires2018]

Originally Posted by souravdas808

The conventional cars do not have enough space optimised for bigger batteries and will make the car unstable breaching structural capacity. The upcoming Harrier EV will be Gen-2 EV platform which will be optimised for housing 60 kWh battery.

Thanks agree, that is the benefit of cars with born e-v platform. Which next Tata or Mahindra will be born EV ?

[vtires2018]

Originally Posted by Geta

The MAIN reason is the Law of Diminishing returns, i.e, increasing the battery capacity does not increase the range in a linear manner. For every additional kWh, the kms gained keeps decreasing.

I would rather live with range anxiety ��

-- Somehow I disagree on living with range anxiety, can you please share your research that increasing battery capacity to 50 - 60 kWh do not have substantial increase in range.

--Agree 35-40 kWh batteries are sufficient for everyday use in India, only when we have infrastructure built at everyone's home (relatives, hotels with 7KW AC charging) . Depending on outside infrastructure still gives range and other anxieties for families, thus EV adoption is less. My point was till we are at a stage, when infrastructure at home/outside is reliable enough, Auto companies should start with 50 -60 kWh vehicles (cost increase may not be high, only thing is they have to build a born EV, dedicated EV platform, or buy from Chinese auto company/ VW MEB etc)
Toyota is using BYD e-platform till they develop their own in China.

Remember the EV sales will be high in 2023, and more cars using 35kWh will have to use outside (expensive) charging, if their real world range is 250 -320 KM.

My perspective was with higher battery (50-60 kWh ) then less dependency on outside charging, as well as cheaper overall, no range anxiety for the family. Also bigger batteries would suit more EV adoption by Taxi operators.
Also not sure, how is actual usable battery from which range is generated.

60 kWH gives 420 KM WLTP (possibly higher limit of 460 KM in India)
50 kWH gives 320 KM WLTP (possibly higher limit of 350 KM in India)


Maybe we need to move this discussion to another thread !
"Should higher battery sizes like 50 -60 kWh be used in Cars/SUV in India"


For Tesla and other Chinese Auto makers like NIO, BYD, Volvo cars (owned by Geely), Polestar etc they are now offering > 60 kWh ( agree they are not needed or practical for India in 2023)

[Bhupesh_2628]

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

The most bizarre marketing award goes to Mahindra for its new XUV400 ad mocking the charging point operators.

I think this post should be moved to the below thread also:
WORST INDIAN TV advt for cars

[DarthVeda]

Originally Posted by vtires2018

-- Somehow I disagree on living with range anxiety, can you please share your research that increasing battery capacity to 50 - 60 kWh do not have substantial increase in range.
(possibly higher limit of 350 KM in India)

This is from physics, for every increase in mass you need more force to move it. When the battery size increase so does the weight of the car, this means it requires more power to move, thus spends more battery. What he meant was it is not a linear increase in range for battery capacity increase.
eg: 30kwh gives 312km ARAI, 60kwh doesn't mean it will be 624km.

This is the same case with rockets too, the rockets need heavy fuel to lift off, but increase in fuel causes more weight thus requires more fuel.

[sagsaw]

Originally Posted by DarthVeda

This is from physics, for every increase in mass you need more force to move it. When the battery size increase so does the weight of the car, this means it requires more power to move, thus spends more battery. What he meant was it is not a linear increase in range for battery capacity increase.
eg: 30kwh gives 312km ARAI, 60kwh doesn't mean it will be 624km.

This is the same case with rockets too, the rockets need heavy fuel to lift off, but increase in fuel causes more weight thus requires more fuel.

Absolutely correct. And this physics principle is a drawback of EVs.

Hope half the weight batteries with double the density are invented.

Then no range anxiety.

[niranjanprabhu]

One sore issue from my PoV is the choice of chemistry that M&M has chosen

NMC (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2)) is very prone to thermal runaways. Most of the two-wheeler EV tragedies we have seen are with the NMC chemistry. The advantage of this is that it has great energy density (Wh energy that can be stored per kg of battery) and hence the same 40 kWh battery of the XUV400 will be significantly lighter than the LFP (Lithium Ferrous Phosphate) battery of the Tata Nexon EV Max. The advantage of the LFP is that though its energy density is virtually half that of the NMC, it's thermal runaway propensity is extremely low and the number of recharges it can take is very high (High lifespan).

Prospective customers should keep this in mind. Please do go through the following link to educate yourself on the various battery chemistries and their strengths and weaknesses!

https://batteryuniversity.com/articl...of-lithium-ion

https://batteryuniversity.com/articl...ased-batteries

[Geta]

Originally Posted by vtires2018

-- Somehow I disagree on living with range anxiety, can you please share your research that increasing battery capacity to 50 - 60 kWh do not have substantial increase in range.

Remember the EV sales will be high in 2023, and more cars using 35kWh will have to use outside (expensive) charging, if their real world range is 250 -320 KM.

My perspective was with higher battery (50-60 kWh ) then less dependency on outside charging, as well as cheaper overall, no range anxiety for the family. Also bigger batteries would suit more EV adoption by Taxi operators.
Also not sure, how is actual usable battery from which range is generated.

60 kWH gives 420 KM WLTP (possibly higher limit of 460 KM in India)
50 kWH gives 320 KM WLTP (possibly higher limit of 350 KM in India)

Second time in as many days someone is prompting me to "Remember" in this thread. Did someone tell here that I suffer from Alzheimer's or something?

"Research" in bold letters, seriously? You could have asked for the 'calculations' in ordinary font.

Anyway, now we have some real world numbers.
Petrol Nexon kerb weight: 1255 kg
Petrol Nexon kerb weight without engine (100 kg) and gearbox, petrol tank (100 kg) : 1050 kg (appx)
Nexon EV prime kerb weight (30 kWh): 1400 kg (source: brochure)
Less the weight of EV motor (30 kg appx): 1370 kg.
Weight of battery pack @ 7.25 kg per kWh: 225 kg.
Weight of Nexon EV prime without Motor and battery pack: 1150 kg (appx)
Autocar India real world range of Nexon EV prime: 201 km in highways and 216 km in city (Link: https://www.autocarindia.com/car-new...plained-420958)
Mileage of Nexon EV prime in city (better of the two numbers): 216/30 = 7.2 km/kWh

Nexon EV max kerb weight: 1500 kg (as per brochure)
Predicted real world range in city based on Nexon EV prime's data: (7.2*40)*1400÷1500 = 268.8 kms
Predicted mileage : 268.8 ÷ 40 = 6.72 km/kWh

Actual real world range of Nexon EV max: (source: Autocar India. Link: https://www.autocarindia.com/car-new...plained-424488) Inside City: 266 km. On highways: 259 kms.
Mileage 266÷40 = 6.65 km/kWh
So our predictions have been accurate. So we can extrapolate further.

Hypothetically, if Nexon EV Max has a 60 kWh battery (there is absolutely no additional space to house the battery. But let us assume that we keep the additional battery sacrificing the boot as in CNG cars; additional 145 kg for the battery @ 7.25 kg/kWh) , then, the city range would be
(60*6.65)* 1500/1645 = 364 kms.
Here the mileage would be 364/60 = 6.066 km/kWh.

So, we can see Nexon EV prime with a range of 216 km with a 30 kWh battery (@7.2 km/kWh), will achieve only a range of 364 kms with a 60 kWh battery (@ 6.066 km/kWh)
So there is a 20% drop in mileage too.

This mileage is exactly the same as Hyundai Kona (similar in size to Nexon) tested by Autocar UK . (Link: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...al-world-range). Hyundai Kona has a 64 kWh battery pack and delivers a real world range of 250 miles (400 kms) @ 6.25 km/ kWh. Hence our calculations are accurate.

In real world it is impossiblle to accommodate a 60 kWh battery pack in a sub 4 meter car like Nexon. Any Addition in length will lead to additional mass too.
Ideally Nexon sized cars can only hold a maximum of 40 kWh battery pack (both in terms of volume and weight)
A creta/seltos sized car can hold a maximum of 60 kWh battery (similar to Kona, BYD Atto 3 etc)
It will require a car of a size of Harrier or above to have the structural strength and the necessary space to accommodate a battery bigger than 70 kWh.


Let us take another bigger car, Harrier, from the Tata stable for such a calculation (though one size bigger than Hyundai Kona)

Harrier kerb weight: 1655 kg
Difference in weight between diesel Nexon and Nexon EV max (40 kWh): 200 kg
Hence, hypothetical weight of Harrier EV with 40 kWh battery+ Motor: 1655+200 = 1855 kg
Same Harrier EV with 60 kWh battery (additional kWh @ 7.25 kg/kWh) = 1855+145 = 2000 kg.

The real world range of a (hypothetical) Harrier with 60 kWh battery: 364 x 1645 /2000 = 299.4 kms (@ 4.99 km / kWh)

Extrapolating this to see the real world range of a Harrier EV with a 90 kWh battery (additional 222.5 kg weight for the battery pack) : (4.99 * 90) x 2000/2222.5 = 404 kms (@
4.49 km/kWh)

Bingo! This is the exact real world range of Jaguar I Pace (similar size of Harrier) with a 90 kWh battery pack (250 miles/404.8 km). Source: Autocar UK ( Link:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...al-world-range)

Hence, irrespective of the size of the car, a real world range of 500 kms or more is near impossible to achieve with the existing battery technology, and when achieved just for the sake of it, it will be terribly inefficient, break the car down with it's weight, and will be comparable to existing petrol hybrids and diesel engines in cost per km.

I.e, only with a 125 kWh, Harrier EV can reach a real world range of 500 kms. Here the battery pack alone will weigh more than 900 kgs, which is the equivalent of 13-14 full grown adults occupying the car, apartfrom the *real* driver and passengers. This will have a mileage of only4 km/kWh which is 45% less than a 30 kWh battery powered Nexon (7.2 km/kWh). If this vehicle is going to get charged with a fast charger at commercial rates (@Rs 12-15 / kWh), suddenly Petrol hybrids and diesels start making a lot of sense, despite the exorbitant taxes.

So a larger real world range requires a larger battery, a larger space, stronger chassis, axle, larger wheels, better brakes and better safety features to reduce the braking distance. All these are not exactly cheap.

Finally, the elephant in the room: battery cost.
In a Hyundai Kona, cost for replacing the 40 kWh battery pack is Rs 11.9 lakhs (source: TBHP. Link https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...nership-5.html (Hyundai Kona Electric @ 1,00,000 km | Cost of ownership))
Similarly, the cost of replacing the 30 kWh battery pack in Nexon is between Rs 7-9 lakhs (based on different sources).

Hence the cost of a 60 kWh battery alone will be between 15-18 lakhs. Hence suddenly BYD Atto 3 with a 60 kWh battery pack for Rs 33.9 lacs makes a lot of sense and XUV
400 EV base variant with a 34.5 kWh battery pack for Rs 15.99 looks like a steal, even after the price "rationalisation" for Nexon EV prime. (Which is 20 cm smaller in length and with a battery pack which is smaller by 4.2 kWh).

Thanks.

P.S: Don't worry about fitting in bigger batteries inside your cars. Inductive charging (charging while driving) is the way to go!

[aim120]

Originally Posted by Geta

Finally, the elephant in the room: battery cost.
In a Hyundai Kona, cost for replacing the 40 kWh battery pack is Rs 11.9 lakhs (source: TBHP. Link https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...nership-5.html (Hyundai Kona Electric @ 1,00,000 km | Cost of ownership))
Similarly, the cost of replacing the 30 kWh battery pack in Nexon is between Rs 7-9 lakhs (based on different sources).

Hence the cost of a 60 kWh battery alone will be between 15-18 lakhs.

The cost of the Nexon Prime 30kwh battery pack is 7 lakh since its a LFP, this is not the price at which Tata procures but rather the highly inflated spare part price. It may cost Tata half as much to buy from Chinese Goshan, since third party suppliers on Alibaba sell at those prices (excluding freight and duties). Where as Tata is a Tier 1 buyer, who buys directly from the manufacturer and in much higher volumes.

[sri_tesla]

Originally Posted by niranjanprabhu

One sore issue from my PoV is the choice of chemistry that M&M has chosen

NMC (Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2)) is very prone to thermal runaways. Most of the two-wheeler EV tragedies we have seen are with the NMC chemistry.

Prospective customers should keep this in mind. Please do go through the following link to educate yourself on the various battery chemistries and their strengths and weaknesses!

Let's not demonize the NMC chemistry without the complete facts. NCA batteries are considered less safe than NMC and LFP but for almost a decade, Tesla exclusively used NCA batteries with much better safety records than many Chinese OEMs with LFP batteries. There are hundreds of electric car models with NMC chemistry today from major car manufacturers (VW, Skoda, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Stellantis, Hyundai, Kia, Ford, GM, etc...). Except for the Hyundai Kona, and GM Bolts made with NMC batteries from LG Chem, other models do not have any issues. Even the Kia Niro which used the same platform as Hyundai Kona but with NMC batteries SK Innovation does not have any incidents.

On the other hand, there are many Chinese vehicles that went on fire with LFP batteries including ones from BYD. But most of these are not being reported in the mainstream international media just like most of the other Chinese news. You need to follow a few Chinese-related EV websites for this information. Even if they don't cover the incidents extensively.

Coming to 2-wheeler fire incidents, those are due to low-quality batteries from Chinese suppliers. Tata Nexon EV has an LFP battery with liquid cooling from one of the top Chinese battery companies, but that did not stop it from catching fire either.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

Let's not demonize the NMC chemistry without the complete facts. NCA batteries are considered less safe than NMC and LFP but for almost a decade, Tesla exclusively used NCA batteries with much better safety records than many Chinese OEMs with LFP batteries.

On the other hand, there are many Chinese vehicles that went on fire with LFP batteries including ones from BYD.

Coming to 2-wheeler fire incidents, those are due to low-quality batteries from Chinese suppliers. Tata Nexon EV has an LFP battery with liquid cooling from one of the top Chinese battery companies, but that did not stop it from catching fire either.

The thing is if I was to short a battery be it LFP, NMC or NCA. All of them will create a Arc hot enough to melt steel but while LFP battery will stop burning the moment the short has beem removed. NMC and NCA will continue to burn and contribue to a fire which cannot be extinguished by water.

We have fires in ICE vehicles due to electrical short but can be extinguished.

Also in India, car structural integrity is not as good as a Tesla. Nor do our trucks have crash guard at the back that prevents cars from wedging under the truck.

NCA, NMC will be safe as long as the battery structure is not compromised at cell level during a crash.

[Geta]

Originally Posted by aim120

The cost of the Nexon Prime 30kwh battery pack is 7 lakh since its a LFP, this is not the price at which Tata procures but rather the highly inflated spare part price. It may cost Tata half as much to buy from Chinese Goshan, since third party suppliers on Alibaba sell at those prices (excluding freight and duties). Where as Tata is a Tier 1 buyer, who buys directly from the manufacturer and in much higher volumes.

That brings us to the bigger elephant in the room.

Even before driving a single kilometre, a Nexon EV/XUV400 buyer gives away Rs 4 lacs (average) of his hard earned money as foreign exchange. The average pre tax cost of petrol/diesel in India being Rs 35 per liter, this roughly translates into the foreign exchange India would have lost *after* the owner drives the car for 1,80,000 kilometres (12,000 liters diesel; fuel efficiency @ 15 kmpl for diesel).
Moreover, over the next 3-4 years, with every EV, government will lose lot of indirect taxes on vehicles and fossil fuels to the tune of at least Rs 1-2 lakh crores per annum. All this will only lead to raise in direct taxes or other indirect taxes.

Should the government really push for EVs and subsidise them? Or at least shouldn't the government wait until India becomes self sufficient in car batteries?

. There will also be unintentional collateral damage in the form of thousands of expats in the gulf countries will lose their jobs and will come back to India. Job opportunities will decrease sharply in the gulf region and unemployment may increase in India. Also NRI remittances will dip sharply.

[serious_maniac]

Originally Posted by Geta

That brings us to the bigger elephant in the room.

Even before driving a single kilometre, a Nexon EV/XUV400 buyer gives away Rs 4 lacs (average) of his hard earned money as foreign exchange. The average pre tax cost of petrol/diesel in India being Rs 35 per liter, this roughly translates into the foreign exchange India would have lost *after* the owner drives the car for 1,80,000 kilometres (12,000 liters diesel; fuel efficiency @ 15 kmpl for diesel).
Moreover, over the next 3-4 years, with every EV, government will lose lot of indirect taxes on vehicles and fossil fuels to the tune of at least Rs 1-2 lakh crores per annum. All this will only lead to raise in direct taxes or other indirect taxes.

Should the government really push for EVs and subsidise them? Or at least shouldn't the government wait until India becomes self sufficient in car batteries?

Rome was not built in a day! Once EVs start selling in a big way, enterprises like Tata, M&M will invest in battery tech. Govt is giving PLI to boost manufacturing of batteries in India.

Automobile industry is big and complex - you need demand, ecosystem of suppliers, trained workforce, technology among others to start manufacturing. Government has taken a small step to start the demand cycle which they can more than recover if EVs catch up and numbers increase as they are expected to.

~sm

[Geta]

Originally Posted by serious_maniac

Rome was not built in a day! Once EVs start selling in a big way, enterprises like Tata, M&M will invest in battery tech. Govt is giving PLI to boost manufacturing of batteries in India.

Automobile industry is big and complex - you need demand, ecosystem of suppliers, trained workforce, technology among others to start manufacturing. Government has taken a small step to start the demand cycle which they can more than recover if EVs catch up and numbers increase as they are expected to.

~sm

I wouldn't be surprised if several designs of the EV battery technology is under IP protection. Hence not much chance that Tata/Mahindra start making their own batteries. At the most, the government can incentivise the patent holders to start manufacturing in India by offering free land, tax holidays etc., Or Indian manufacturers can pay a licensing fee and start manufacturing the batteries. Either way, still a large portion of money will be lost in foreign exchange.

If the government really wants to stop foreign exchange outflow, it should extend the subsidies and tax breaks to only those EVs who manufacture their batteries inside India.

[sagsaw]

Originally Posted by aim120

All of them will create a Arc hot enough to melt steel but while LFP battery will stop burning the moment the short has beem removed. NMC and NCA will continue to burn and contribue to a fire which cannot be extinguished by water.

Really? Is LFP self extinguishing?

Some discrepancy in info I feel.