[Rajeevraj]

Pricing would be the key here. Honda have traditionally not been very good at pricing. They always price at a premium over most of the competition. Even the top end versions of the city is currently priced quite a bit higher than most of competition. But the City brand name and the magic it commands in India has ensured its success. That did not work with the earlier Jazz and more recently the Mobilio. I think the Amaze is the only car they priced on par with expectations.

To make a dent on the i20, I believe it should be priced equal to or a little lower than the Elite i20. The top petrol versions of the i20 sell at around 8.5L OTR Bangalore and the diesel top end nudges 10L OTR. Comparatively the Xcent is placed slightly below the i20.

The Amaze and the Xcent are priced almost the same. So am hoping that Honda will position the Jazz along the same lines and bring it in slightly below the i20. The CVT AT will be a USP for the Jazz.

[adimicra]

If Honda prices the Jazz same as the Amaze, why on earth would anyone buy the Amaze?
It is very clear from the ad campaign and whatever features we can see from the spy shots that Honda is positioning this as a premium product. So, people expecting it to be priced alongside Amaze will probably get disappointed

[RavenAvi]

Birdie drops 3 bits of info ahead of the July 8 launch:

- There will be 4 variants on offer - E, S, V & VX. CVT to be offered in the V trim (possibly after all the feedback received from customers regarding missing V AT in the City, IMO).

- Pricing will be directly against the Elite/Active i20 variant-to-variant. Expect a slight premium (10K-15K) over the Amaze, correspondingly.

- Jazz RS on the cards, depending upon initial market response to the Jazz. Might be expected early-2016.

[Vigkey]

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

Even the top end versions of the city is currently priced quite a bit higher than most of competition. But the City brand name and the magic it commands in India has ensured its success. That did not work with the earlier Jazz and more recently the Mobilio. I think the Amaze is the only car they priced on par with expectations.

Rajeevraj, depends on what car you consider to be City's competition. Verna is priced above the City except for the top end where City is priced extra by 2k - but City has way too many features compared to City and hence Verna would be considered over-priced here. But if we consider Ciaz, City is priced 50-100k extra. But then, City has a better petrol engine and a more powerful diesel engine.

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

To make a dent on the i20, I believe it should be priced equal to or a little lower than the Elite i20. The top petrol versions of the i20 sell at around 8.5L OTR Bangalore and the diesel top end nudges 10L OTR. Comparatively the Xcent is placed slightly below the i20.

I have been repeating this time and again. Pricing Jazz lower than i20 might not happen IMO. What is more realistic considering Honda's history is to price Jazz at 15-25k premium over i20. Honestly, it will not be considered overpriced in that case. Jazz is also pretty loaded with features and the interior space and flexibility is incomparable.

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

The Amaze and the Xcent are priced almost the same. So am hoping that Honda will position the Jazz along the same lines and bring it in slightly below the i20. The CVT AT will be a USP for the Jazz.

I guess, this discussion will NEVER end. I agree completely with Adimicra here and as I have always maintained, Jazz will and should be priced over Amaze. This is a premium hatchback for God's sake. Essentially, the target customer is also totally different. I do not want to repeat my point all over again. But yes, for me, Jazz should be priced over Amaze.

Originally Posted by adimicra

If Honda prices the Jazz same as the Amaze, why on earth would anyone buy the Amaze?
It is very clear from the ad campaign and whatever features we can see from the spy shots that Honda is positioning this as a premium product. So, people expecting it to be priced alongside Amaze will probably get disappointed

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Birdie drops 3 bits of info ahead of the July 8 launch:

- There will be 4 variants on offer - E, S, V & VX. CVT to be offered in the VMT trim (possibly after all the feedback received from customers regarding missing VMT AT in the City, IMO).

- Pricing will be directly against the Elite/Active i20 variant-to-variant. Expect a slight premium (10K-15K) over the Amaze, correspondingly.

Wow RavenAvi. Your birdie has pretty much confirmed most of my predictions Underlined in italics - they totally match my predictions.

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

- Jazz RS on the cards, depending upon initial market response to the Jazz. Might be expected early-2016.

Well RavenAvi, any clue on whether the RS be just cosmetic updates or will it get a 1.5 i-VTEC?? Early 2016?? Too late man - IMO, they should showcase right from the beginning and sell it 2-3 months after launch, like how they did for Mobilio. They can gauge the demand in the 2-3 months based on the booking itself. Correct??

[narenteam]

Originally Posted by adimicra

If Honda prices the Jazz same as the Amaze, why on earth would anyone buy the Amaze?

IMO the trunk (the big car impression) of a car is more valuable to a lot of Indian buyers than quality of interiors. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a single buyer for a car like Xcent.
One can disagree, but I feel if Jazz isn't priced very close to i20 elite or Amaze, then Honda will have to try its luck in ver3 of Jazz in India.

[Rajeevraj]

Mod Note : Please do NOT reply to posts using bold text within a quoted post, as it leads to visual discomfort for readers. Additionally, it's inconvenient to quote & reply to such a post.

For the correct way to quote, please see this thread.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by adimicra

If Honda prices the Jazz same as the Amaze, why on earth would anyone buy the Amaze?
It is very clear from the ad campaign and whatever features we can see from the spy shots that Honda is positioning this as a premium product. So, people expecting it to be priced alongside Amaze will probably get disappointed

When I say same, I meant +/-10-15K. I think the clientele for both are very different. There are a lot of buyers for whom the boot is an important aspect. If you look at the Xcent and Elite i20. They are priced very close to each other variant to variant(-20K for the Xcent as compared to the i20). Both of them are in the Top 20 list pretty much every month.

I don't think they can afford to position it well above the Amaze. The sole reason it was a failure earlier was because of the price. They need to break that perception, at least with the introductory prices.

Originally Posted by Vigkey

Rajeevraj, depends on what car you consider to be City's competition. Verna is priced above the City except for the top end where City is priced extra by 2k - but City has way too many features compared to City and hence Verna would be considered over-priced here. But if we consider Ciaz, City is priced 50-100k extra. But then, City has a better petrol engine and a more powerful diesel engine.

I meant the other C Segment Sedans- Ciaz, Vento, Verna, Linea, Fiesta, Rapid. The City commands a 100-150K premium over most in this list. Looking at the sales numbers, this is apparently worth it and I personally believe that some of it is due to the goodwill the City enjoys. (Guess am getting a little OT

I have been repeating this time and again. Pricing Jazz lower than i20 might not happen IMO. What is more realistic considering Honda's history is to price Jazz at 15-25k premium over i20. Honestly, it will not be considered overpriced in that case. Jazz is also pretty loaded with features and the interior space and flexibility is incomparable.

Agree. A 15-25K premium over the i20 is definitely ok. Would be nice if it undercuts the i20 atleast as a launch offer. That would create a good buzz

I guess, this discussion will NEVER end. I agree completely with Adimicra here and as I have always maintained, Jazz will and should be priced over Amaze. This is a premium hatchback for God's sake. Essentially, the target customer is also totally different. I do not want to repeat my point all over again. But yes, for me, Jazz should be priced over Amaze.

Over the Amaze is fine. What I meant was it should not exceed 20-25K over the Amaze. Similar to the Xcent and Elite i20 pricing. It is of course a premium hatch back, but it is not a new segment and there are other premium hatchbacks out there. So the pricing should take that into account.


Ultimately IMO, it depends on what Honda wants out of the Jazz. Do they want to position it as a very premium car with a specific clientele who don't mind paying the premium for it and appreciate what it has to offer (For example like the Polo GT TSI) or do they want a big seller like the i20 or the City, racking up 8-10K sales per month.

I personally fall in the first category. It is a lovely car (based on my experience with the previous model) and if I was in the market for a premium hatch, this one will be a strong contender irrespective of the price.

[Vigkey]

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

I meant the other C Segment Sedans- Ciaz, Vento, Verna, Linea, Fiesta, Rapid. The City commands a 100-150K premium over most in this list. Looking at the sales numbers, this is apparently worth it and I personally believe that some of it is due to the goodwill the City enjoys. (Guess am getting a little OT here).

Sorry if I am going But according to me, Only Verna and Ciaz are City's competitors among the mass majority. Vento, Rapid, Linea and Fiesta are also in the same segment, but the mass market does not look at these cars. That is why I compared only Ciaz and Verna. Verna is as pricey or pricier than City and Ciaz is much cheaper. I agree other C-segment sedans are also as cheap as Ciaz but are hardly a competition to City and Ciaz.

Same can happen with Jazz also. But only if Honda prices it sensibly. Then Polo, Punto, Bolt, etc will not even be a competition, immaterial of their prices. Swift, i20 and Jazz will be the only ones who sell 5k+.

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

Agree. A 15-25K premium over the i20 is definitely ok. Would be nice if it undercuts the i20 atleast as a launch offer. That would create a good buzz

Over the Amaze is fine. What I meant was it should not exceed 20-25K over the Amaze. Similar to the Xcent and Elite i20 pricing. It is of course a premium hatch back, but it is not a new segment and there are other premium hatchbacks out there. So the pricing should take that into account.

Totally agree with both these. I also have been predicting and wishing for a pricing similar to what you have mentioned above. 15-25k over the i20 is the maximum they should charge - anything below that is definitely welcome

Same with Amaze - when I said above amaze, I again do not want it to exceed Amaze by over 25k. So we are on the same boat here.

[akhil994]

The dealer close to my place is asking for a booking amount of 25,000. Now for a car that has not been launched and nor do Honda know its demand, is it justified? I'm inclined to get it booked and delivery is promised within 2-3 weeks after launch, in the first or second lot of cars that the dealer gets.

He already has 15 bookings for the Jazz currently.

[Nilesh5417]

Pricing it with irrational premium over i20 will be suicidal. Honda simply can not match the feature list and fit-finish of Hyundai in the same pricing. The Jazz will rake in numbers at launch for sure. The challenge Honda has is to sustain the numbers like the City. Look at the Amaze and Mobilio as examples, they did 5k+ for a while then the numbers simple tapered off. The Amaze at least had the promise of being the most fuel efficient car in its segment but it never really challenged the Dzire for long. Am not even starting with whats wrong about the Mobilio.

I've seen the new Jazz in Malaysia and i feel it really doesn't have a trump card over i20 except looks (subjective), space management and the engine. Same points that Amaze promised but didnt help it against the Dzire for long. But then Jazz definitely is a looker which the Amaze wasn't. So maybe this time, with the right pricing, Honda has a cracker like City on its hands.

But the i20 now is a proven product + the perception that with each gen, Hyundai ups the quality. The Honda story has been a bit of an anti-climax with the perception that the current gen Honda cars don't live up to the Honda badge anymore. The chinks show up within a few months of ownership? i20 is not perfect but people seem to be complaining more about the lack or withdrawal of features than how it rattles or how the suspension doesnt really hold up well.

Am sure Hyundai also has a few tricks up its sleeve in case the Jazz is a hot seller like the city. There is a possibility of moving features from the i20 Cross and global version over to the i20 and still manage to hold the prices lower than Jazz.

So interesting battle on cards i say. Honda better get it right this time cause except for the Mini-SUV segment, they are done with launching a product in every volume segment i think. Right?

[petroguzzler]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

CVT to be offered in the VMT trim (possibly after all the feedback received from customers regarding missing VMT AT in the City, IMO).

CVT would be offered in the V trim to make it VAT and not VMT AT. So, the auto variant is not available in the VX trim?

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

Pricing it with irrational premium over i20 will be suicidal. Honda simply can not match the feature list and fit-finish of Hyundai in the same pricing. The Jazz will rake in numbers at launch for sure...

I've seen the new Jazz in Malaysia and i feel it really doesn't have a trump card over i20 except looks (subjective), space management and the engine. Same points that Amaze promised but didnt help it against the Dzire for long. But then Jazz definitely is a looker which the Amaze wasn't. So maybe this time, with the right pricing, Honda has a cracker like City on its hands.

But the i20 now is a proven product + the perception that with each gen, Hyundai ups the quality.

So interesting battle on cards i say. Honda better get it right this time cause except for the Mini-SUV segment, they are done with launching a product in every volume segment i think. Right?

The new i20 is an impressive product that has taken many by surprise. It's hard to believe that Hyundai has managed to give the i20 a sorted ride-handling package, not to mention premium interiors and an absolutely stunning exterior. It's reasonably spacious too and as always, is equipped like no other car, this side of 15 lakhs! The only chink in its armour is an uninspiring petrol-engine in terms of outright performance.

The Jazz on the other hand is a product whcih was plagued with disadvantages that seemingly outweighed its positives, in spite of being touted as a premium-product. Not only was it priced on the higher side, the ride-handling was average at best and it lacked equipment that ought to have been present on such a car. The engine, although a gem as far as refinement is concerned, is wheezy and only gets going if flogged suffuciently.

The new Jazz promises a lot. Honda has equipped it well this time 'round and it's even more spacious than before. I'm hoping Honda has tweaked the ride to make it plush and supple too, as they have done with the City. The addition of a diesel engine and an automatic-transmission for the petrol should give it tremendous potential, thereby eliminating the cons of the old-gen Jazz. I get the feeling though, that Honda will resort to cost-cutting and sap some of its 'premiumness' and if they do, it's going to be disappointing. I sincerely hope Honda avoids cutting-corners to the extent that it feels flimsy. But as we've learned with the City, people will lap it up as long as its priced well - and that's the only thing standing in the way of Honda etching a success story as far as the Jazz is concerned.

[damager21]

Since there are 4 variants, I believe Honda will launch base variant at a price lower than i20. So E & S variant will be priced aggressively while V and VX will be launched at a premium over i20.

This is exactly what Ford did with Ecosport. They launched at a price of 5.59 lacs which made it look like a VFM product. In parallel they advertised features like Ecoboost engine, SYNC, etc. to entice consumers to upgrade and go for higher variant.

I believe Honda will launch Jazz at 5.1 lacs (13k lower than i20) and strongly promote segment first features like Sat Nav, 7" touch screen, CVT, Touch panel AC, Paddle shifters, etc.

Aggressive price for base variant will be good enough to make Jazz perceived as a VFM product. Additionally, the feature list will be a big enticer for many to upgrade from E/S to V/VX.

[Vigkey]

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

Pricing it with irrational premium over i20 will be suicidal. Honda simply can not match the feature list and fit-finish of Hyundai in the same pricing.

Agree that a huge premium over i20 will be suicidal. Also Honda cannot match the fit and finish of i20. But to think that Honda cannot match the feature-list of i20 is not entirely correct. Below is the list I have compiled that compares the features that i20 has extra and what Jazz has extra

Compared to i20, what features will be missing in the Jazz

• Key-less entry and go. Jazz will most likely have only key-less entry
• 16" wheels with wider tires. Jazz will get 15" and thin tires
• Reverse sensors and camera with steering adaptive display- Jazz will have only normal reverse camera
• Dedicated rear AC vents - Jazz might get under-seat vents like last edition.
• Telescopic steering
• Lot of spoon-feeding stuff (useless IMO) like service reminders, warning of steering is not straight
• Probably a better ride

What is Jazz giving extra?

• Touch screen HU with Navigation - even lower variants get the 5" color display - better looking that i20's basic display.
• Touch screen ACC - Only for the gadget freak
• Loads of extra space inside and in boot - Probably with Magic seats
• Safety features in most (if not all) variants
• Efficient CVT box option
• Instant FE, Average FE, Distance to empty
• Stub type antenna
• Relatively better steering + better handling

At least for me, in terms of useful features, its very even between i20 and Jazz.

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

The Jazz will rake in numbers at launch for sure. The challenge Honda has is to sustain the numbers like the City. Look at the Amaze and Mobilio as examples, they did 5k+ for a while then the numbers simple tapered off.

I agree with Mobilio which is averaging ~2300 units over last 6 months and seeing a steady decline in sales (But still it is doing ~50% of Ertiga - which IMO is commendable as the reach of Maruti is incomparable to Honda's). But for Amaze it is clearly (but a distant) No.2 in compact sedans. Even the mightily loaded Xcent and Bolt were not able to beat Amaze. It is happily averaging ~5500 units over last 6 months. The M-o-M fluctuations are just Honda's way of handling the production capacity.

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

I've seen the new Jazz in Malaysia and i feel it really doesn't have a trump card over i20 except looks (subjective), space management and the engine. Same points that Amaze promised but didnt help it against the Dzire for long. But then Jazz definitely is a looker which the Amaze wasn't. So maybe this time, with the right pricing, Honda has a cracker like City on its hands.

Come on Nilesh, don't you think space management and engines are trump cards?? On a serious note, Jazz's trump has always been the interior space and flexibility. Looks wise, Jazz is very modern and contemporary and i20 is stylish and has European influence - things are even here. Pricing is the key - with some intelligent pricing, Honda can definitely shake i20 but whatever be done it cannot dethrone i20 like City did to Verna.

Originally Posted by Nilesh5417

But the i20 now is a proven product + the perception that with each gen, Hyundai ups the quality. The Honda story has been a bit of an anti-climax with the perception that the current gen Honda cars don't live up to the Honda badge anymore. The chinks show up within a few months of ownership? i20 is not perfect but people seem to be complaining more about the lack or withdrawal of features than how it rattles or how the suspension doesnt really hold up well.

Absolutely, Hyundai has improved the i20 so well that Team-BHP reviewers feel the control stalk quality in i20 is better than that in Elantra

Honda has gone down-hill with the City. But, the fact is majority is happy - the sales numbers prove that. The underlined fact is that if the product overall feels VFM and premium at the same time, people will lap it up. Again, many of City's issues could have been initial glitches that is bound to happen with any product and I hope Honda has ironed them out by now and that should reflect in Jazz as well.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

It's reasonably spacious too and as always, is equipped like no other car, this side of 15 lakhs! The only chink in its armour is an uninspiring petrol-engine in terms of outright performance.

Well Suhaas, I agree that i20 is reasonably spacious and is very well equipped. But let us not forget that i20 has lost some equipment as well, also it has very useful features like Average Fuel Efficiency, Distance to Empty, and auto locking missing. Long antennas and single reversing lights are major irritants for me. There are other cars that are equally well equipped like the Zest and City.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The Jazz on the other hand is a product whcih was plagued with disadvantages that seemingly outweighed its positives

Yes, the previous generation Jazz was not VFM by any means. It was a wonderful car - a quality product but lacked features and was over-priced and hence the result.

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The new Jazz promises a lot. Honda has equipped it well this time 'round and it's even more spacious than before. I'm hoping Honda has tweaked the ride to make it plush and supple too, as they have done with the City. The addition of a diesel engine and an automatic-transmission for the petrol should give it tremendous potential, thereby eliminating the cons of the old-gen Jazz. I get the feeling though, that Honda will resort to cost-cutting and sap some of its 'premiumness' and if they do, it's going to be disappointing. I sincerely hope Honda avoids cutting-corners to the extent that it feels flimsy. But as we've learned with the City, people will lap it up as long as its priced well - and that's the only thing standing in the way of Honda etching a success story as far as the Jazz is concerned.

I am pretty sure will Jazz ride and handle as well as the City and I feel that is more than enough for me. I was pretty happy with the City i-DTEC I drove. The potential is there in the new Jazz, quality levels will be same as City and that should be adequate for the mass market - including me (would not complain if I got i20 quality interiors though). Key is the VFM factor which totally depends on the price. Going by what we hear and what Honda did with City, I hope Jazz will be no different.

Originally Posted by damager21

Since there are 4 variants, I believe Honda will launch base variant at a price lower than i20. So E & S variant will be priced aggressively while V and VX will be launched at a premium over i20.

I believe Honda will launch Jazz at 5.1 lacs (13k lower than i20) and strongly promote segment first features like Sat Nav, 7" touch screen, CVT, Touch panel AC, Paddle shifters, etc.

E will be stripped down to the bones and will be priced below 5.25 lacs - that should be good enough to pull customers in. I am sure Honda is VERY serious about the promotions this time and they will not do any buffoonery like they did with Mobilio. I expect classy and catchy ads just like the teaser, which I thought was wonderful. The online campaign is very serious and I am very impressed.

If Honda does good enough marketing, Jazz will sell good numbers and also a lot of them will be V and VX. Just like how the City did and i20 is selling a lot of Astas. A lot of people go for the top end models nowadays more so with the non-Maruti brands.

P.S. 200th post in this esteemed forum. Feel extremely privileged to be part of such enticing discussions!!!

[uday.ere]

Originally Posted by damager21

Since there are 4 variants, I believe Honda will launch base variant at a price lower than i20. So E & S variant will be priced aggressively while V and VX will be launched at a premium over i20.

I believe Honda will launch Jazz at 5.1 lacs (13k lower than i20) and strongly promote segment first features like Sat Nav, 7" touch screen, CVT, Touch panel AC, Paddle shifters, etc.

Aggressive price for base variant will be good enough to make Jazz perceived as a VFM product. Additionally, the feature list will be a big enticer for many to upgrade from E/S to V/VX.

Spot On Damager, I too think they will use the pull technique of a lower price point to get the customer into the showrooms and then hard-sell the higher variants citing longer waiting periods for the lower versions. Though the price variance between the entry level E vs the top end VX could be significant given the kit that comes on the VX.

The input from RavenAvi about a probable RS variant is of interest. Hope it goes beyond the pure cosmetic changes that they have given on the Mobilio RS.

[RavenAvi]

Originally Posted by Vigkey

Well RavenAvi, any clue on whether the RS be just cosmetic updates or will it get a 1.5 i-VTEC??

Originally Posted by uday.ere

The input from RavenAvi about a probable RS variant is of interest. Hope it goes beyond the pure cosmetic changes that they have given on the Mobilio RS.

No clue yet. But if the Indian City & the international Fit has a 1.5L heart, there's no reason why there can't be a Jazz RS with the same powerplant, priced at somewhere near the City E or S petrol. Should find enough takers.

Maybe the re-tuning and clearing of production lines would take some time. Otherwise I see no reason why it can't come earlier. Maybe they will give the Jazz's monthly sales numbers some time to settle down before bringing out the RS - Hyundai did the same while delaying the i20 Active several months after the Elite i20's launch.

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

When I say same, I meant +/-10-15K. I think the clientele for both are very different. There are a lot of buyers for whom the boot is an important aspect. If you look at the Xcent and Elite i20. They are priced very close to each other variant to variant(-20K for the Xcent as compared to the i20). Both of them are in the Top 20 list pretty much every month.

Both XCent and Elite i20 attract a very different set of buyers. Same will happen in the case of the Amaze and the Jazz. Most of Jazz's sales (like the Elite i20's) will come from the bigger cities, while Amaze (like the XCent) will continue to attract crowds from smaller cities/towns, where a sedan has more aspirational value than a hatch - the major reason why sub-4m "CS" sedans sell so much every month.

Originally Posted by petroguzzler

CVT would be offered in the V trim to make it VAT and not VMT AT. So, the auto variant is not available in the VX trim?

Thanks for pointing it out. I posted it in a bit of a haste last night. Sent a report to the mods for correction.

No confirmation of a Jazz VX AT variant yet.

Originally Posted by damager21

Since there are 4 variants, I believe Honda will launch base variant at a price lower than i20. So E & S variant will be priced aggressively while V and VX will be launched at a premium over i20.

Originally Posted by uday.ere

Though the price variance between the entry level E vs the top end VX could be significant given the kit that comes on the VX.

Expect the Jazz EMT to be priced very, very competitively. Added kits to the higher variant can attract price differences of 45K-50K easily, so a range of 5 lacs-7.5 lacs for the petrol lineup and 6 lacs-8.5 lacs for the diesels can be easily attained. It will make the Jazz attractively priced (initially) and can take the fight directly to the competition. Even cars like the Grand i10 might feel a pinch.