[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Pam81

But technically, AMT can never beat the torque converter (TC) automatic in terms of torque provided.

And this makes a big difference in case of small petrol engines. I found my Xcent AT better to drive in the city than the manual. I clearly remember the Brio AT having much better low end response than the Brio MT.

But, will it make a difference for a small diesel hatch with 190Nm torque?

[Pam81]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

But, will it make a difference for a small diesel hatch with 190Nm torque?

It does make difference in diesel too becuase the Torque converter's design benefits irrespective of Gasoline or Diesel.

Having said that, the Diesel engine that you have mentioned will have peak torque of 190Nm at some rpm. Technically, Torque will be mentioned always "@ speed". And so, this 190Nm is available in certain speed band and also this is the max capacity of the engine. 190Nm is never available right from low idle. If you follow the torque performance curve for a diesel engine (typical design), it starts somewhere around 40% of peak capacity at low idle (~900 rpm) and climbs gradually to peak torque and relatively stays flat for certain speed band and then dips in latter high speed area of the engine.

So in reality, for manual gear box (AMT is with same gear ratios same except no manual gear shifting + no manual clutch action) the first gear ratio must be high to provide enough Torque multiplication to move the vehicle and the accelration will be slow until you raise the speed to fall in the peak torque availability speed band of the engine since the gear ratio is fixed.

Now with Torque Converter based automatic with the same diesel, the acceleration will be quicker because the torque amplifciation ratio starts at high providing twice as much torque to transmission in comparison to a manual or AMT. So, at low idle speed of 900rpm, the engine is still capable to give max of 75Nm @ 900 rpm and the torque converter multiplies the same to factor of 1.5 at the least, (75 x 1.5 = 115Nm) to the gear box and further multiplied by gear ratios at gear box. And this is why Torque Converter is anyday better than manual & AMT in terms of acceleration.

There are some challenges for Diesel engine to conceive a smooth drivable automatic owing to the fact that Diesel has high rotating mass and Torque fluctuation damping needs a heavy flywheel. Certain design elements can be changed in Torque Converter to achieve the smooth driving of gasoline. I did not have the chance to drive the Mahindra Scorpio Automatic, any Scorpio owner could comment on acceleration and smoothness of drive.

Behind the scene detail of Torque Converter:

Torque amplification is the key benefit of the Torque Converter. Technically, it is called as stall torque ratio, defined as maximum possible torque amplification ratio between input (engine) and output (tranmission). Torque converter sandwiched between engine and the auto gear box. The stall torque ratio for automotive applications usually less than 2.

In actual use, Torque converter will not amplify torque to stall torque ratio but close enough considering the design aspects and engine power + tranmission matching to satisfy vehicle requirements. It is the general design charactersitic of Torque converter to have more torque amplification at the start (say, low idle speed) and goes down in a smooth curve as the vehicle speed increases. The stall torque ratio and downstream gear ratios carefully selected to provide high torque to move off and accelerate and low torque in later gears to achieve fuel economy.

I made it really a long post and hope that gives you enough info and helps!

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Pam81

I made it really a long post and hope that gives you enough info and helps!

It sure helps. Thanks.

What i completely forgot to mention while writing the earlier post was that the other automatic I get to drive frequently - the Fortuner AT - is a TC mated to a big turbo diesel. Only when you got to the Scorpio, it suddenly rang a bell inside my head.

And yes - you are absolutely correct. It literally goes to war with the brakes right from idle rpm. Release the brakes and it just jumps forward. And yes - my experience with the dyno run of my Punto 90hp clearly showed the deficiency of torque till around 1500 - 1800 rpm.

That said, I should have framed the question in a better way -

There are two disadvantages when we compare the normal TC gearboxes to AMTs in case of small diesel hatchbacks - 1. The availability of boxes that cater to such high torque applications. 2. Costs.

In case of petrol automatics, the difference between the AMT versions and the TC version is quite apparent. The AMT version struggles with the low torque available (Maruti cleverly christened it auto-shift instead of automatic!) and the difference becomes even more glaring whenever there is a sudden surge or rpm range during upshift or downshift. Starting off in 1st gear - the AMT box can never achieve the smooth torque delivery from the TC.

And then, we come to costs - the AMT gearbox results in savings of around 65k compared to the TC boxes if you consider the difference in their respective manual and automatic versions of Maruti, Hyundai, Honda etc.

Coming to diesel automatics, AMT does a better job here. Even though there is less torque available near idle rpms it gets a lot better from around the useable 1500 range. And if the Zest review is anything to go by - the diesel AMT is a whole different machine compared to the petrol AMT experience of the Celerio.

And the costs saving seem to be around 55k approximate by comparison the Zest automatic prices with manual, and Verna automatic prices with manual.

Coming back to my original question -

For a petrol automatic, a buyer may prefer spending 65k more and end up with a very smooth machine. The difference between the AMT and TC versions is quite significant and specially when it climbs up the segment - buyers may defenitly prefer the TC version, or the CVT / DSG.

But, for a diesel automatic, the difference between the two gets narrower. Swift diesel is already a peppy little hatch back in the manual trim, its going to be almost similar incase of AMT as well, and going by past experiences, Maruti can only make it smoother than TATA who have already done a good job. Does it make sense then - to ignore the cost saving and plunge for the TC gearbox?

My answer - For now, it doesn't. The Swift diesel AMT, if launched, can bring an automatic revolution, something which the Swift diesel AT will never be able to do. The market is just not ready for that yet.

[Pam81]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

It literally goes to war with the brakes right from idle rpm. Release the brakes and it just jumps forward. And yes - my experience with the dyno run of my Punto 90hp clearly showed the deficiency of torque till around 1500 - 1800 rpm.

Very nicely said. Literally war with brakes due to stall torque!

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

There are two disadvantages when we compare the normal TC gearboxes to AMTs in case of small diesel hatchbacks - 1. The availability of boxes that cater to such high torque applications. 2. Costs.

This is a good perspective on the constraints in the industry. Design of Torque Converter (Impeller & Turbine) blades is very complex and heavily time consuming for design validation and it is not Indian OEM's cup of tea or core competency. This could be attributed to many factors but highly attributed towards market need. Historically, we are not lovers of drivability (though, changing now!) but rather usability with good FE and low running costs!

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

And then, we come to costs - the AMT gearbox results in savings of around 65k compared to the TC boxes if you consider the difference in their respective manual and automatic versions of Maruti, Hyundai, Honda etc.

I think the higher cost is due to no local production of Torque Converters.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Coming to diesel automatics, AMT does a better job here. Even though there is less torque available near idle rpms it gets a lot better from around the useable 1500 range. And if the Zest review is anything to go by - the diesel AMT is a whole different machine compared to the petrol AMT experience of the Celerio.

And the costs saving seem to be around 55k approximate by comparison the Zest automatic prices with manual, and Verna automatic prices with manual.

This is due to better bottom end torque of Diesel with Turbo. But still it will be deficient compared to Torque Converter. But cost will surely keep it in bay due to the fact that already Diesel is carrying a delta over petrol cars and plus additional 55K for Torque Converter is not a heart warming news for Diesel buyers.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

For a petrol automatic, a buyer may prefer spending 65k more and end up with a very smooth machine. The difference between the AMT and TC versions is quite significant and specially when it climbs up the segment - buyers may defenitly prefer the TC version, or the CVT / DSG.

I completely agree! Good case for petrol.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

But, for a diesel automatic, the difference between the two gets narrower. Swift diesel is already a peppy little hatch back in the manual trim, its going to be almost similar incase of AMT as well, and going by past experiences, Maruti can only make it smoother than TATA who have already done a good job. Does it make sense then - to ignore the cost saving and plunge for the TC gearbox?

IMHO, TC can still provide a good value proposition by completing hiding the turbo lag during the dull band of 900 to 1500 rpm. However peppy our national diesel engine is, still TC can outsmart in terms of acceleration. However, when you add the cost vs benefit dimension, TC might not make a strong case and it more so looking a hindrance in Diesel than petrol because Diesel already carrying a delta over petrol & plus TC cost. Another blow could be FE. TC is never good with FE when compared to manual or AMT just because of it's war over brakes.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

My answer - For now, it doesn't. The Swift diesel AMT, if launched, can bring an automatic revolution, something which the Swift diesel AT will never be able to do. The market is just not ready for that yet.

For the cost reasons, completely yes even though technically TC is better in drivability & acceleration particularly during launch.

[dr.fixated]

I'd like to add a few cents to the discussion surrounding AMT. I own a Maruti Celerio VXi AMT. It is true that it is quite jerky when it shifts the gears (in fact, it is quite eager to change gears in the range of 0-45 kmph) but there is always the 'manual mode'; you could change gears manually and, guess what, that too without a clutch. In other threads, some users suggested that you could shift to manual mode while overtaking to avoid jerks / slowing down due to undesired up-shift of the gear during the process.

I've personally found AMT a great boon and I, being a totally inexperienced driver, am able to concentrate on other aspects of driving completely ignoring the gear changes. I wish they offer a vehicle with AMT, ABS and Airbags under 10L! Is this too much to hope for?

[Amarendranath]

Does anyone know any of the new features and the speculated release date.? Pardon my ignorance. Was not following the thread.

[aspire]

Hi,

I am planning to go for a ZXI, currently no in India, found on the net that the new facelift is coming soon, called Kalyani motors in BLR, they seem to have no clue on the launch date, nor the pricing.

Dear folks, is the wait really worth it? I am going to be back in October first week, intend to purchase the car immediately, wondering whether it is really worth to wait for day time running lamps, electrically adjustable ORVM's fog lights etc, honestly not even one feature seems interesting to me, am I missing something out.

Please advise.

Regards
Shailesh

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by aspire

Hi,

I am planning to go for a ZXI,

Dear folks, is the wait really worth it? I am going to be back in October first week, intend to purchase the car immediately,

No dealer had any exact details on the face lift launch for the Swift.

Along with the features you have mentioned, IIRC, cruise control also will make it.

If you need the vehicle urgent, as soon as you reach Bangalore, then go ahead and get the ZXi.

Anurag.

[diwa]

Originally Posted by aspire

Hi,

I am planning to go for a ZXI, currently no in India, found on the net that the new facelift is coming soon, called Kalyani motors in BLR, they seem to have no clue on the launch date,

Today in the newspaper saw an advertisement for swift with RS 44,000/- discount. Looks like they are clearing stocks.

The launch should be around the corner.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by aspire

Hi,

I am planning to go for a ZXI, currently no in India, found on the net that the new facelift is coming soon, called Kalyani motors in BLR, they seem to have no clue on the launch date, nor the pricing.

Dear folks, is the wait really worth it? I am going to be back in October first week, intend to purchase the car immediately, wondering whether it is really worth to wait for day time running lamps, electrically adjustable ORVM's fog lights etc, honestly not even one feature seems interesting to me, am I missing something out.

Please advise.

Regards
Shailesh

I doubt the facelift will be launched, and also deliveries started before October, since the first priority for Maruti right now is to get the Ciaz to a good start. Most of these features will be introduced first on the Ciaz and will trickle down to the Swift facelift introuduced soon after!

Festival season would be my guess! October is just too early.

[volkman10]

Scoop - Maruti Suzuki Swift Sport? - Festive season launch

Maruti Suzuki's one of the most selling hatchback Swift gets a minor face-lift for its upcoming Sports variant launching ahead festival season .The llong distance images of the Swift Sports at Manesar company stockyard

http://blog.gaadiwaadi.com/2014/08/m...orts-2015.html

[hothatchaway]

While some would say that Maruti would be flattering to deceive by calling a variant sports, by just adding rear disc brakes and stop/start button, I would say a silent prayer of thanks for maruti to have done something about those atrocious brakes

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by hothatchaway

I would say a silent prayer of thanks for maruti to have done something about those atrocious brakes

Many would agree with you and rejoice.

One thing I hate are those alloys. They have just ruined it. Whoever was the designers for that needs to go for a walk.

Anurag.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Looks like even the popular VXi version will get DRLs.

But how this can be called a Sportz version? I highly doubt it. Maruti reserves sports tag for sticker job versions.

Edit: Alloys with rear disk brakes? Looks like the regular VXi wheel caps to my eyes.

Edit2: ZXi already had good brakes. Why rear disks then? Are we looking at more power? 90hp diesel perhaps?

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Many would agree with you and rejoice.

One thing I hate are those alloys. They have just ruined it. Whoever was the designers for that needs to go for a walk.

Anurag.

Completely agree with you, the current alloys look fabulous, while these alloys will get lost in the crowd.
The red car doesn't has DRLs. Its simply a plastic add on.