[Kratos453]

Originally Posted by blacksport

Am not saying that dzire is superior to the ciaz, but the target buyer isn't going to see beyond the boot. With the dzire, he gets a familiar face, a boot and proven FE, at a cheaper price.

I find this arguable and sorry to be harsh but I find no sense in comparing dzire to Ciaz.

It's like comparing a 21" lcd to a 40" led tv and saying that the only difference is in the dimension and screen and hence the less expensive lcd is a better option.

Even if your statement does hold true then honda amaze should be competing honda city, hyundai xcent should be competing hyundai verna which is not the case in buyers perspective. Each segment carries it's own list of buyers.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by blacksport

They aren't similar, but potential buyers rarely see the difference and care only about its most important feature, the boot. And then the dzire trumps the ciaz in FE and that seals the contest..

Please dont insult the knowledge of a potential buyer. Any ordinary citizen can tell the difference between a Dezire and Ciaz. Just like any "average" buyer can tell the difference between a City and Amaze. Its not like buyers go in to buy a City in Honda showroom and end up buying Amaze with the same engine as it has got all the features. Thats just height of illogical thinking & a weak argument for the sake of argument to begin with.

Originally Posted by blacksport

Sure, fiesta has usable power and is any day the practical option for the average customer. But, I say this from my experience with the civic, it is extremely exhilarating to revv the engine to 6000+ RPM, and no words can accurately explain the feeling. It's the ivtec for me any day..

So I guess you are stating I am an "average" joe, mango man and you are the "elite" who knows how to enjoy an i-vtec

Well firstly I was commenting on the i-Vtec on the City and not Civic which is an "extremely" noisy unit when revved and not in a good way. Secondaly I am not a big fan on NA units anymore. Once you have driven the turbo you get addicted to the torque. From little that I recall of my drives in Civic, it was an average handler and needed to be revved to extract power. I could be wrong though as memory fades me.

Originally Posted by blacksport

There are a lot of factors that go on to decide whether a car is trouble free or not. One such factor is the customer himself. For example, whenever am on vacation at my native place, I drive my cousin's swift. Its steering is too vague and is not accurate enough. Everytime I drive I see that it I slightly deteriorating. But my cousin refuses to acknowledge. He finds it okay. On my insistence, we once took it to a MASS. The guy who took the test drive turned the steering both ways, and said, it turns, then what's the problem. My cousin and the SA gave me queer looks. I gave up. But if it had been my ecosport, I would have sat on the head of the SA and got it fixed. For my cousin, the car runs and the steering turns, and that I good enough. And then the car rattles from everywhere, left, right, front, back. For him, it is part of the parcel, and does not bother one bit.

If a steering doesnt have a feel, which Swift is plagued with. Thats a design issue. I am not sure taking it to a SA would help fix it unless you want him to re-engineer the car

I guess you would have taken your Civic to Honda SA and told him to fix the suspension so that it doesnt touch speed breakers.

Originally Posted by blacksport

Am not saying that dzire is superior to the ciaz, but the target buyer isn't going to see beyond the boot. With the dzire, he gets a familiar face, a boot and proven FE, at a cheaper price..

Dzire is superior to Ciaz and you know it because of....

How does having a familiar face make Dzire better then Ciaz. And as far as FE goes, the 1.3 DDIS has more FE as per ARAI in Ciaz then Dzire.

From the same logic Amaze is superior then City and target buyer will not go beyond boot. Amaze has familiar face as Mobilio & Brio, proven engine, FE and cheaper price. Guess Honda must be having a tough time selling City by your logic, innit?

The Ciaz is "far" superior to Dzire. It has better interiors, better plastic, better music system, 16" tires 195 section (kudos to MUL for not undersizing tires like City), better tuned engine, commanding road presence due to its size, best in class leg room, integrated GPS, 7" touchscreen unit (segment first), leather seats and projector lamps as features to name a few over Dzire. Not to mention its built on a completely new platform.

Originally Posted by blacksport

Am not comparing, just saying that people would cross shop. The size of the boot does not matter. For most, the existence of one would suffice.

Says who, you seem to have done an extensive research on how public thinks.

For the ciaz the competition would not be from city, fiesta or Verna. Dzire is the one to beat.

Sure by your logic why stop at Dzire. The competition would be from Zest, Swift, Wagon R & even Tata Nano. Customers would go into a showroom see the Ciaz and Nano, then they will think that both of them have power steering, power windows and 4 tires. Why spend 10 lakhs on Ciaz when you can get 5 Nano's

The car is not yet launched. You havent driven it yet (most of us havent), but you have jumped to a premature conclusion that this car is not good. Maybe it wont, but why are you so rattled coming to this thread and bringing the car down? If you dont like the car, which you are entitled too, simply ignore ignore this thread.

I dont mean to offend you, but couldnt help. So my apologies if I have offended you in any way by my post.

[blacksport]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

LOL. I hope you are joking. The Dzire and Ciaz in the same sentence? Do you seriously think that someone looking at Verna in Hyundai showroom will start looking at the Xcent instead? Or someone looking at top end City will settle for the Amaze?

If at all anything it will be the reverse. A buyer looking at Dzire will see the Ciaz, with better performance, features, full size sedan, proper boot, amazing rear legroom, way more premium and all that for maybe 2-3 lakhs more than a Dzire. He will start reworking his finances.

A city/Verna buyer doesn't even look at Sunny or Etios.

Maruti have gone to town with the Ciaz. The Euro styling, the sheer dimensions (almost Altis length), the features, the space inside, the fit/finish seems good on pics and very decent engine options.

A LOL doesn't change anything. Lets look at some history. Why wasn't the sx4 selling? Didn't it offer considerable space, performance and styling than the dzire? But Maruti buyers saw more value in dzire. Things hasn't changed one bit from the sx4 days. All I can see is that they have added a bit more mediocrity with that pathetic petrol engine. That ain't enough to gather numbers. After a couple of months, the numbers would settle to sx4 levels.


@aseem and other fanboys, for the last time, am not saying that dzire I better than ciaz. If that is your only argument then save it. All am saying is that for an average maruti buyer in this segment, dzire provides him mote value for the money he would be spending. I know prices aren't out, but I assume that it would be around sx4 prices.

@aseem, the swift in question is one that I had been driving ocassionally since the day it was bought. It was better when new. I have spent 2 decades with cars, so I know when a steering is going bad. When turned slightly, the car doesn't turn, and then after a second or two, it turns. It has developed play. For a maruti customer it is the least of his worries, and some may consider it a feature. I don't. And then there are the rattles.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by blacksport

A LOL doesn't change anything. Lets look at some history. Why wasn't the sx4 selling? Didn't it offer considerable space, performance and styling than the dzire? But Maruti buyers saw more value in dzire. Things hasn't changed one bit from the sx4 days. All I can see is that they have added a bit more mediocrity with that pathetic petrol engine. That ain't enough to gather numbers. After a couple of months, the numbers would settle to sx4 levels.

The SX4 is about the only argument that you can come up with as your whole point otherwise is pretty hollow.

I am still awaiting your response to my question on why would ppl not choose Amaze Diesel over City Diesel since they have the same engine and both have boot. Which as per your logic is the only criteria when comparing cars?

SX4 was never a good car to begin with as it was really a cross over with a boot. When Dzire was launched it further cannabalized SX4 sales. It became dated with time and had been in the market for too long. However there is no concrete evidence that the SX4 shoppers went for Dzire they could have gone for Honda City, Vento, Verna or Rapid for all we know. Its not like there was a survey carried out for all Dzire owners that did you buy Dzire because its better then SX4? For all we know they didnt have the budget to buy a C-Segment sedan to begin with and needed an entry level sedan with a boot around 6 - 7 lakh rupees and Dzire provided them with that option. I recall when I had purchased an Esteem in 2004 I did it because I couldnt afford Baleno at the time. So its not like a purchased Esteem as I found it superior to Baleno.

In addition the SX4 didnt have diesel in its hay day. So those who wanted a diesel sedan and couldnt look further then MUL went for Dzire. Just as when Honda City previous gen didnt have diesel and Amaze Diesel was launched, a lot of prespective City owners shifted to Amaze as diesel was available. Once the new City was launched with Diesel people jumped ship and bought the City in a "big" way.

There are very different cars for different budgets. Some people have budget of 6-8 lakhs. They go for Amaze, Dzire etc. Some folks have budget from 8-12 lakhs, they go for City, Vento, Rapid, Verna and now the Ciaz.

Is there cross-shopping between the 2 segments. Most definitely there is, but thats true from all manufacturers. I am sure an Amaze VX cusomter would think of buying a City SX or lower trim. The same is true in case of Maruti as well.

Lets just leave it at this and agree to disagree. Its obvious you want to bash Ciaz without even driving the car. You have an agenda against Ciaz and its clear to the people who read your posts.

[ad3952n]

Originally Posted by blacksport

Lets look at some history. Why wasn't the sx4 selling? Didn't it offer considerable space, performance and styling than the dzire? But Maruti buyers saw more value in dzire. Things hasn't changed one bit from the sx4 days. All I can see is that they have added a bit more mediocrity with that pathetic petrol engine. That ain't enough to gather numbers. After a couple of months, the numbers would settle to sx4 levels.

I think, your perception is highly misguided. Please, Please understand, as much as I understand your view on Ciaz, I have to tell you now to understand the basic facts and get your doubts cleared by a Maruti ASC.

SX4 was not selling because the segment it has been catering to and consumer base it has been catering to, did not find it lucrative enough in front of cars like Honda City and Vento et al. Maruti never intended to pitch it against their Dzire. SX4's specs were compared to Honda City and Vento etc and not to Dzire.

The consumers who wanted to buy a Maruti Dzire would not go in for SX4 anyways. Coming now to your Comments about Ciaz:

1) Have you driven a Ciaz?

2) Have checked it's petrol engine performance?

The future of a car like Ciaz which has not even been purchased at present and not even come on roads, how can you be so sure in your hypothesis?

Let me clear your thoughts about product positioning, having been trained by Toyota ASC in Marketing and Sales, I was given ample knowledge about product positioning. Product is placed in the market by a company keeping in mind the following things:

1) Target Audience.

2) Competition.

3) Price Range.

4) Life Cycle

Considering the above things, Maruti does not intend to pitch Ciaz to Dzire. It is like you compare a Lumia phone to Apple I phone.

Originally Posted by blacksport

aseem and other fanboys, All am saying is that for an average maruti buyer in this segment, dzire provides him mote value for the money he would be spending. I know prices aren't out, but I assume that it would be around sx4 prices.

No one is a fan boy here. We are talking on legitimate grounds. For the final time I am saying this, Dzire and Ciaz have different segments. Monetary worth of both can't be compared. As I have the feed back, the price might go upto 10.5 to 11 Lakhs which I feel the Dzire can never be pitched against. So, lets close this argument now.

[blacksport]

Originally Posted by aseem

I am still awaiting your response to my question on why would ppl not choose Amaze Diesel over City Diesel since they have the same engine and both have boot. Which as per your logic is the only criteria when comparing cars?

.

I had made a post in one of the Honda threads as to how I spent hours convincing my brother in law that city was a better car than amaze. He eventually heeded my advice, but I don't think he is convinced even now.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by blacksport

A LOL doesn't change anything. Lets look at some history. Why wasn't the sx4 selling? Didn't it offer considerable space, performance and styling than the dzire? But Maruti buyers saw more value in dzire. Things hasn't changed one bit from the sx4 days. All I can see is that they have added a bit more mediocrity with that pathetic petrol engine. That ain't enough to gather numbers. After a couple of months, the numbers would settle to sx4 levels.

People looking at SX4 did not settle for Dzire, they went and got a Honda City.

The SX4 when launched was available only in 1.6L Petrol guise. The engine was soon branded as a gas guzzler. Secondly the SX4 had very quirky stlying which was not to everybody's liking. Thirdly, the SX4 was nowhere near as spacious as the Honda City.

Lastly Maruti launched the Dzire which was not a sub 4m sedan but a full fledged sedan with the exact same features and as much space as the SX4. Even the boot was huge in the old Dzire. To top it off the Dzire had a diesel option which the SX4 got 4 years after launch in 2011.

Now look at the Ciaz and you will see the above mistakes have been taken care of from the very beginning.

1. The Dzire is sold as a smaller sub 4m sedan. Check.
2. The Ciaz has a Diesel engine from launch. Check
3. The Ciaz has way more features than Swift (Keyless entry with start/stop, 7" screen with sat nav, rear AC vents, projector lights and more). Check
4. The Ciaz is way bigger than the Dzire and even SX4. Check
5. Rear space is benchmark in the segment. Check.
6. Both engines are fuel efficient with on par performance. Check.
7. Design is not quirky but very stylish and noone will say it doesn't look good. Check.
8. Boot space is nearly double of the Dzire.

They have all the bases covered with the Ciaz.

Ofcourse, we will have to see how it does after a few months but I wouldn't write it off so easily.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by blacksport

@aseem and other fanboys, for the last time, am not saying that dzire I better than ciaz. If that is your only argument then save it. All am saying is that for an average maruti buyer in this segment, dzire provides him mote value for the money he would be spending. I know prices aren't out, but I assume that it would be around sx4 prices.

@aseem, the swift in question is one that I had been driving ocassionally since the day it was bought. It was better when new. I have spent 2 decades with cars, so I know when a steering is going bad. When turned slightly, the car doesn't turn, and then after a second or two, it turns. It has developed play. For a maruti customer it is the least of his worries, and some may consider it a feature. I don't. And then there are the rattles.

Firstly dont trivialize the debate by petty name calling.

Originally Posted by blacksport

I had made a post in one of the Honda threads as to how I spent hours convincing my brother in law that city was a better car than amaze. He eventually heeded my advice, but I don't think he is convinced even now.

Well isnt this counter to your argument. For a Maruti buyer Dzire is better then Ciaz as it has a familiar face, same diesel engine and boot.

But when it comes to City & Amaze Diesel, why is Amaze not better, it has a familiar face, same diesel engien and a boot?

So we cant apply same logic in same sitautions as we want to reach different conclusions?

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by blacksport

Am not saying that dzire is superior to the ciaz, but the target buyer isn't going to see beyond the boot. With the dzire, he gets a familiar face, a boot and proven FE, at a cheaper price.

Am not comparing, just saying that people would cross shop. The size of the boot does not matter. For most, the existence of one would suffice.

For the ciaz the competition would not be from city, fiesta or Verna. Dzire is the one to beat.

This predicament reminds me of our decision way back in 2006 when we had walked into the Honda showroom to book the City ZX but ended up booking the Civic. 2-3 lakhs more and we got a way more futuristic and premium sedan with more equipment and showroom appeal. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the population would consider a Ciaz over the Dzire. Or a City over the Amaze. Or a Verna over the Xcent.

You get a superior car instead of a hatchback with a boot slapped onto it. Why wouldn't anyone consider a superior car, especially if budget permits?

A family friend has been looking around for a new car. He saw the Mobilio and didn't like it. He nearly booked a Dzire yesterday but when he heard that the Ciaz is not far away, he dropped the Dzire altogether. His mind is now set on the base model petrol Ciaz. By the way, he started off with a budget of 7.

EDIT: Why take my word for it? Just go to the monthly sales figures thread and have a look at the numbers yourself. Compare the figures of the Amaze before and after the arrival of the City. You have your answer right there.

[blacksport]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

People looking at SX4 did not settle for Dzire, they went and got a Honda City.

The SX4 when launched was available only in 1.6L Petrol guise. The engine was soon branded as a gas guzzler. Secondly the SX4 had very quirky stlying which was not to everybody's liking. Thirdly, the SX4 was nowhere near as spacious as the Honda City.

Lastly Maruti launched the Dzire which was not a sub 4m sedan but a full fledged sedan with the exact same features and as much space as the SX4. Even the boot was huge in the old Dzire. To top it off the Dzire had a diesel option which the SX4 got 4 years after launch in 2011.

Now look at the Ciaz and you will see the above mistakes have been taken care of from the very beginning.

1. The Dzire is sold as a smaller sub 4m sedan. Check.
2. The Ciaz has a Diesel engine from launch. Check
3. The Ciaz has way more features than Swift (Keyless entry with start/stop, 7" screen with sat nav, rear AC vents, projector lights and more). Check
4. The Ciaz is way bigger than the Dzire and even SX4. Check
5. Rear space is benchmark in the segment. Check.
6. Both engines are fuel efficient with on par performance. Check.
7. Design is not quirky but very stylish and noone will say it doesn't look good. Check.
8. Boot space is nearly double of the Dzire.

They have all the bases covered with the Ciaz.

Ofcourse, we will have to see how it does after a few months but I wouldn't write it off so easily.

You need to read from my first post.
Buyers considering non-maruti cars, are not going to buy a maruti.
The only people who would look at ciaz would be the maruti loyalists.
For that class of buyers, dzire offers better value. They would go to the cheapest "booted" car.

For the very last time, my argument is not about which is better, but which would sell. A better car need not always sell. I would come back after the sales numbers have spoken.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by blacksport

With the dzire, he gets a familiar face, a boot and proven FE, at a cheaper price.

For the ciaz the competition would not be from city, fiesta or Verna. Dzire is the one to beat.

How will a buyer having a thought of buying a C segment car go to the showroom and walk out with a B segment car and say I saved money in the bargain? It is not an upgrade but a downgrade.

Originally Posted by blacksport

A LOL doesn't change anything. Lets look at some history. Why wasn't the sx4 selling? Didn't it offer considerable space, performance and styling than the dzire? But Maruti buyers saw more value in dzire. Things hasn't changed one bit from the sx4 days. All I can see is that they have added a bit more mediocrity with that pathetic petrol engine. That ain't enough to gather numbers. After a couple of months, the numbers would settle to sx4 levels.

SX4 doomed mainly due to that engine that was thirsty and never did justice to the "kitna deti hai?" question.

My dad had the SX4 from 2009 till 2014 and he only regretted the decision for two points:

1) FE

2) Headlamps

Both these parameters are worse in SX4, he is used to 8-9kmpl of average FE which was ridiculous, rest I feel was good enough in SX4.

Originally Posted by blacksport

For the very last time, my argument is not about which is better, but which would sell. A better car need not always sell. I would come back after the sales numbers have spoken.

Dzire will sell irrespective of the Ciaz presence in the market. The target audience is different so one looking for the Dzire may look at the Ciaz but not vice-versa.

Anurag.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by blacksport

You need to read from my first post.
Buyers considering non-maruti cars, are not going to buy a maruti.
The only people who would look at ciaz would be the maruti loyalists.
For that class of buyers, dzire offers better value. They would go to the cheapest "booted" car.

For the very last time, my argument is not about which is better, but which would sell. A better car need not always sell. I would come back after the sales numbers have spoken.

And what will the numbers tell? Is anyone saying Ciaz will outsell the Dzire or would be a sure shot hit?

You seem to know a lot about "average" Maruti buyer. Well as per you they would not think anything other then a Maruti and find more value in Dzire. Well I am one of those average buyers you are referring too.

I have owned 800, Zen, Esteem, Swift, Alto, Honda City, New Fiesta, Polo and I am now considering Ciaz. I am more then capable of affording Honda City or other car in this segment and have no loyalty to Maruti. As can be seen from my ownership history. I don't see why I should go with Dzire.

I know it's Saturday and you like some of us are probably bored and writing all thus crap to have a laugh . So yes after reading your posts and being enlightened I have decided to change my booking from Ciaz to Alto. There you have it. Now happy?

[ad3952n]

Originally Posted by blacksport

Buyers considering non-maruti cars, are not going to buy a maruti.
The only people who would look at ciaz would be the maruti loyalists.
For that class of buyers, dzire offers better value. They would go to the cheapest "booted" car.

For the very last time......which would sell. A better car need not always sell. I would come back after the sales numbers have spoken.

Maruti loyalist need not prove their loyalty by owning a Ciaz. Had that been the case then Kizashi would have been on waiting periods. Consumers who look for cheap boot car are not the ideal target audience for Ciaz.

Now, if you may reply, What makes you feel that Ciaz will not sell?

What makes you apprehensive about it's sales numbers right now. Have faith on Maruti Suzuki, it won't disappoint us.

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by blacksport

Lets look at some history. Why wasn't the sx4 selling? Didn't it offer considerable space, performance and styling than the dzire?

Well let's have a look at few factors which contribute in the decision making. There are few parameters which influence a buyer's decision (we are talking about Indian market) :
1. Budget/car price
2. Running cost - this includes "kitna deti hai" and routine maintenance cost and perception about it.
3. Looks/appeal of the car - this also includes popularity of a particular car model between family and friend circle of the buyer.

The sequence of the above top three priorities may change but they remain top three for majority of car buyers in the budget segments.

Now let's see how the SX4 and and the new Ciaz fair on these parameters:

1. SX4 price was okay. We don't know how the Ciaz will be priced. So this will be factor which will decide fate of the Ciaz.
2. Both cars are Maruti. We didn't hear any serious complaints for SX4 in this department. Ciaz has got few more electricals and more features but mechanicals are mostly identical to other cars in the family. No drastic change over here. So perception about maintenance cost should also be good between the large number of buyers.

Come to the FE. Ciaz has already started creating buzz about exceptional FE figures published in the newspapers. Believe me, people take ARAI declared figures very seriously. They won't hear you if you say that most of the diesel cars in the diesel segment give FE of around 18-20. They will just see which one has got better published figures. I am sure you will agree that the Ciaz scores passing marks on this point.

3. Now come to one of the most important factor - Looks/apeal : SX4 was just an ugly and unproportionate looking car. Now you may argue that then what Dzires, Amazes, Xcents are then? They are also successful models. Agree, but look at the price point and the buyer class.

Buyer of Dzire, Xcents etc is that person who upgrades from a small hatchback or buys his first car. SX4/Ciaz fall in the upper segments where buyers are upgrading from either premium hatchbacks or from the above mentioned pseudo sedans. He puts money after thinking about few more options which are true compact sedans in the books like City, Verna, Vento etc.

Here SX4 just lost the ground. It was just unproportionate and ugly looking compared to other good looking cars in the segment. Brand image is also a factor here. Who will put money on a brand which has got poorer images compared to likes of Honda, Hyundai, VW etc in this particular segment, that too when car itself is also not looking any impressive.

Here Ciaz has got chance since its far greater in the looks department. It's sheer dimensions, space inside, attractive design just make it far more appealing. Buyer can overlook the brand image and in return he gets good looking car, better FE, and cheaper running cost.

Originally Posted by blacksport

But Maruti buyers saw more value in dzire. Things hasn't changed one bit from the sx4 days.

Well something is missing here, let me put that missing thing here.

First thing not all the buyers, who considered SX4 as an option bought the Dzire. Many of them were also considering other options as well in the price segment and they bought cars like City. Also note that the SX4 started as a petrol only car which also tuned out a negative for it. Maruti buyers can not overlook the FE factor.

Then the Dzire of that time atleast had some space inside the cabin as well as inside the boot. So buying Dzire was also a no brainier if someone was already at edge of his allowed budget.

But today's dzire is just a joke in front of today's Ciaz, don't you think so? (its such a joke that I didn't even bother to write first letter of new dzire in capital letters)


Few factors I can see which can decide Ciaz as a success or failure in the market will be:
(A) Price point
(B) How good or bad perception it can create against competition.

[a4anurag]

Guys,

Can we now come back to Ciaz and not have a discussion on Dzire vs Ciaz! No point in drifting the topic further.

Thanks,

Anurag.