[aseem]

Originally Posted by ad3952n

Please clear my doubts here, Under which heads does Etios appear as sub-standard? Is it the integrated head rest, the vertical air vents of AC, something in technical terms or is it competition of the segment? Regarding the interiors, let me tell you, any car that is kept unkempt will appear to be a crap. However, if we keep a car in clean and good shape, then nothing of this sort can happen. I own a 3 year old Honda City Ivtec, and my drivers keep the interiors clean and even I take interest in regularly vacuuming them. If in case an Etios is driven in commercial agencies then for sure it will be dirty and this can apply to any commercial vehicle in India right from a state transport bus to a government 3 wheeler.

Thanks

Your argument lost all credibility when you stated Etios doesn't have sub-standrard interiors. In my view they are not only substandard but they are "atrocious".

It is as if Toyota has done us Indian's a favour by giving interiors. Headrest cost cutting, ugly and downright cheap central console, speedometer looks like there is a sticker pasted by a child. Oh my god its appalling the interiors on Etios.

No offence meant to any owners, but we surely deserve more.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by aseem

Your argument lost all credibility when you stated Etios doesn't have sub-standrard interiors. In my view they are not only substandard but they are "atrocious".
.

The whole car is horribly built as if Toyota wanted to create a Nano, and then its priced on par with other cars.

Yes, I dont see value in the current corolla too. Looks overpriced for what it offers.

Coming back to the topic of the Ciaz,

1. Reverse camera feed is displayed on the IRVM for the Z variants, which is a positive point since in the review, the Z+ had a warning message on the entertainment screen which blocked the view. But what happens to the Z+ variant IRVM? Since the mirror is same for the Z and Z+, will the display be disabled or we get the same feed on IRVM and infotainment display?

2. Huge thumbs down for not giving Variable intermittent wipers. My SX4 has one and I am very much used to it

[ad3952n]

Originally Posted by aseem

Etios doesn't have sub-standrard interiors. In my view they are not only substandard but they are "atrocious". It is as if Toyota has done us Indian's a favour by giving interiors.

Originally Posted by audioholic

The whole car is horribly built as if Toyota wanted to create a Nano, and then its priced on par with other cars.

Fine, I understand the points by both of you. For me as a person, a car's interior has immense importance undoubtedly, but, to call a car sub-standard just because of a below-par interior is not right. In reality, no matter how much we agree or disagree, the fact still remains, even with presence of better cars, people move to buy an Etios/ Liva. Therefore, interiors are not always the prime concern. Hence, to end it, I will say, no car is 100% accurate or beautiful. Its a man made machine after all.

Thanks

[swiftnfurious]

Just realized one more problem with brands launching a booking without giving a TD / display car!! People discuss all other brands along with this product and also draws all kinds of conclusions & comparos without having any real time experience or data! Sometimes to the extent where you need to look at the thread title to realize which thread you are actually in!!

Maruti - please change your product launch style!

[srameshdelhi]

Originally Posted by ad3952n

I beg to differ Ramesh, For every brand a developing country comes as a hope of new customer base. Agreed to the fact that they ventured here late but they did not intentionally focus on the commercial customers. It is but obvious that any car brand that has entered India so far, has come with a aim to appeal private owners but due to competition there were certain models that eventually acquired the label of Taxi/ Cab here. Let me tell you, Ertiga was launched in April 2012, it was clearly mentioned by the company not to provide it as a commercial vehicle during the initial period just to avoid this car to be stereo-typed as a Taxi/ Cab design. The reason for cars entering the commercial sector is that there is mass expansion of business in India in all sectors. Today you can find even a Honda City, BMW, Benz etc with a commercial number plate but that does not mean that these brands have shifted their focus from private to commercial customers.

If you are saying Toyota ventured into India with a Taxi like vehicle Qualis, then did TATA launch Indica with an aim to appeal the commercial buyers only?

Innova by far is the bench mark MUV in India in my view and rest all are off-shoots in some or the other way. Though Innova's present design is not to my liking and even Corolla is a fairly decent car.

Please clear my doubts here, Under which heads does Etios appear as sub-standard? Is it the integrated head rest, the vertical air vents of AC, something in technical terms or is it competition of the segment? Regarding the interiors, let me tell you, any car that is kept unkempt will appear to be a crap. However, if we keep a car in clean and good shape, then nothing of this sort can happen. I own a 3 year old Honda City Ivtec, and my drivers keep the interiors clean and even I take interest in regularly vacuuming them. If in case an Etios is driven in commercial agencies then for sure it will be dirty and this can apply to any commercial vehicle in India right from a state transport bus to a government 3 wheeler.

Also, Toyota has not side lined the Indian market, and this is evident from the launches of Fortuner, Camary et al. Also, let me settle one more thing here, Suzuki is surviving in India because it was the 1st foreign automotive brand which entered India in 80's with Maruti's joint venture. At that point of time, the competition was minuscule here as there were only 2 brands i.e Hindustan motors and Fiats with a couple of Standard cars too. They have learnt the actual success tactics and except Kizashi, all their cars were/ are sold decently.

Coming to Hyundai, They have the best fit and finish and are competitively priced in comparison to Toyota, hence they sell more in volumes. Plus, If Hyundai's list of cars is compared to Toyota (on basis of India market)then it's way longer. You may count vehicles of Toyota on fingertips but you need to write down when you recall Hyundai's list and same applies for Maruti.

Thanks

Dear ad3952n
With due respect to your views, you are killing your own argument when you say Toyota gives due importance to Indian market by selling Camrys and Fortuners. Let me tell you why. You would agree success is nothing but market share and numbers. If Toyota is giving its best in Indian market, and still not able to find a market share of more than 5% and could not find more than 1 car (Innova) in top 20 models sold in India (Refer August 2014 Car sales numbers) and way behind the market share of many manufacturers than you would have to call them that they lost it, which in my opinion is incorrect and instead I am saying that they are not fighting the battle properly.

As regards to Etios, it is a better looking car and has a better engine. Still why are they so behind Desire, Amaze and for that matter even Xcent. You may have different view point, but IMO and many others would agree to it that its failure is due to its bad interiors which makes pvt. car buyers avoiding it. Again Taxi segment is helping them as they have no value for interiors.

Coming back to Maruti, all their cars, they take care of interiors look and quality (to suit Indian Customers) and that is the reason they are hit.

Argument of Maruti's advantage being first foreign company in Indian soil is no more valid. All others also (Including Toyota) now spent more than 10+ years in India, and they can't keep hiding their failures forever under this disguise.

Internationally they have better cars than Suzuki. But their Indian strategies are to blame for their failures. Have a look at Toyota Corolla numbers after "Upgrading" - You would tend to agree with me.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Shouldn't it read 'keyless push button start' rather than 'keyless push start'? In my mind atleast, the latter (as described in the brochure) reminds me older vehicles which had to be pushed to get it started.

Originally Posted by Mohan Mathew A

Does it mean the ZXi/ZDI also get the touch screen headunit. As per the earlier feature list shared the touch screen AVN headunit was available only on the Z+ variants

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Good question. I did not notice that the Z variant also had reverse camera. However, from the various reviews - it is very clear that the Z+ variant will have the camera display on the headunit.

Going by the pictures, the IRVM looks an electrochomic unit and looks similar to the ones seen on Hyundai's. Could be that the Z variant gets the display on the IRVM instead.

Originally Posted by iamendangered

Hello folks,

Official brochure out at Maruti Suzuki official website for the Ciaz

Few features like the reverse parking camera display on an ECM mirror (similar to the verna I think) are features that go unmentioned in the reviews and scoops, I for one am very happy that these are there. Anyway, links below..

So it is now confirmed that the camera display will be on the ECM itself. If its anything like the ones used on the Hyundai cars, I'm sure glad its there.

Seems to do a much better job in cutting out glare than the day/night mirrors I have experienced on other cars like my WagonR and Punto. Moreover, the mirror mounted display is just so ergonomic, you can switch vision comfortably between the mirrors and other electronic reversing aids.

[Fornax]

Where will the stream from rear-view camera be displayed?

The Autocar vid review at 3:04 clearly shows the central console doing the job. However the Ciaz site shows the rear-view mirror doubling as a rear view camera display. Or would both be available in different trims?

Second question - Are manufacturers required to disclose the thickness of sheet metal used in a car? Looking at a car in showroom one would never be able judge it. Given that safety is always touted as a "feature" these days, shouldn't this factor be made part of specifications of every car?

[aseem]

Originally Posted by Fornax

Where will the stream from rear-view camera be displayed?

The Autocar vid review at 3:04 clearly shows the central console doing the job. However the Ciaz site shows the rear-view mirror doubling as a rear view camera display. Or would both be available in different trims?

Second question - Are manufacturers required to disclose the thickness of sheet metal used in a car? Looking at a car in showroom one would never be able judge it. Given that safety is always touted as a "feature" these days, shouldn't this factor be made part of specifications of every car?

For Z variant on rear view mirror and Z+ on the stereo.

Really don't need to know the sheet metal stats as it really doesn't tell about safety if the car is poorly designed. Just make crash tests in India mandatory.

Generally the number of pages of thread is a good precursor of the success of the product post launch. 84 pages and counting....

[NaveenKD]

Originally Posted by Fornax

Where will the stream from rear-view camera be displayed?

The Autocar vid review at 3:04 clearly shows the central console doing the job. However the Ciaz site shows the rear-view mirror doubling as a rear view camera display. Or would both be available in different trims?

Second question - Are manufacturers required to disclose the thickness of sheet metal used in a car? Looking at a car in showroom one would never be able judge it. Given that safety is always touted as a "feature" these days, shouldn't this factor be made part of specifications of every car?

Hmm...when did the thickness/gauge of the sheet metal determine how safe the car is?
Every OEM validates the models for durability and NVH which are company specific targets...however crash validation is regulatory requirements which is yet to be implemented in India. Sad.
When I buy a car I would try to get its * rating for ECE/FMVSS/NCAP requirements. And then check if they also provide all PRS and SRS safety features in the Indian version.

[theredliner]

I watched the review on overdrive now. It looks like even the Z+ variant comes with fixed headrests at rear(SX4 had adjustable in ZXi). Can anyone help me understand why manufacturers don't provide proper adjustable headrests in these 10L+ cars when they provide them in hatches that are a lot cheaper. Isn't the additional comfort offered by the generous legroom somewhat negated by these fixed ones? Isn't that a safety flaw as well?

Or, are those really adjustable ones that just look like fixed ones?

[rattanw]

"Toyota has done us Indian's a favour by giving interiors. Headrest cost cutting, ugly and downright cheap central console, speedometer looks like there is a sticker pasted by a child. Oh my god its appalling the interiors on Etios."

really at times I wonder why do the car manufacturers reserve this step motherly treatment for Indian customers. Looking at some products that have come off the shelf in recent past, one can't help feeling a little hard done by. I mean who in their right mind would design interiors like etios. It seems like a deliberate sabotage by people who wanted to launch a new product but don't want it to sell. Reading another post, if Toyota has priced Corolla at par with US price in the Indian market, it seems more than likely that India would be one of their most profitable markets, given low cost of operations plus low cost of setup, added to the fact that Toyota is anyways saving significant input costs by stripping most of their cars off any meaningful features as well as not providing safety features, both of which come as standard in US and other countries. What's further to Toyotas cost advantage is the fact that they do not need to setup extensive safety test facilities as well as do product recalls in India mandated by law, albeit this is true for all manufacturers. I do not mean to go overboard but couldn't help mentioning this.

Back to ciaz, it does seem to be a wonderful product, aspiring in many a sense. I guess the only bit remaining is the final price that MU comes out with, which if it's as expected would bring hearty smile to many faces here.

[troublemaker]

If they price it right, I bet they have a winner on their hands.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by theredliner

Or, are those really adjustable ones that just look like fixed ones?

To me they look like adjustable ones, that seem to look like fixed headrests since they are set to the lowest height setting.

Hopefully, its made of softer foam cushion as compared to the seats.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Fornax

Second question - Are manufacturers required to disclose the thickness of sheet metal used in a car? Looking at a car in showroom one would never be able judge it. Given that safety is always touted as a "feature" these days, shouldn't this factor be made part of specifications of every car?

People have got to understand that this has no bearing on safety
Here's an example from the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety tests on small overlap frontal impact (said to be the most difficult test to pass currently):

BMW 3 series (production: 2012- ):
Structure: Driver's space was not maintained well. Footwell intrusion of 40cm and instrument panel intrusion of 16cm
Injury measures: Injury to the left and right lower leg are likely.

Suzuki Kizashi (awarded top safety pick + which is the highest, by IIHS) (production: 2009- ):
Structure: Driver space was maintained well. Maximum lower interior intrusion below 15cm and maximum upper interior intrusion of 6cm
Injury measures: Measures taken indicate low risk of any significant injuries in a crash of this severity.

Now the Kizashi's build is top notch but as someone who owns a Kizashi and has also driven and experienced several 3 series BMWs owned by friends and acquaintances, I can say that the BMW has better build (even has a longer bonnet). Yet as you can see, the BMW which was designed and produced after the Kizashi, thus is actually a newer model, performed poorly in comparison. I hope this debunks any further claims that length of bonnet, metal thickness and build quality, have an impact on crash safety

[tbppjpr]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

People have got to understand that this has no bearing on safety
Suzuki Kizashi (awarded top safety pick + which is the highest, by IIHS) (production: 2009- ):
Structure: Driver space was maintained well. Maximum lower interior intrusion below 15cm and maximum upper interior intrusion of 6cm
Injury measures: Measures taken indicate low risk of any significant injuries in a crash of this severity.

Now the Kizashi's build is top notch but as someone who owns a Kizashi and has also driven and experienced several 3 series BMWs owned by friends and acquaintances, I can say that the BMW has better build (even has a longer bonnet).

I agree with you on safety part and I have also been putting such comparos earlier elsewhere on the forum but still you will have to count one thing that Kizashi is not a 'Maruti', its a CBU imported from Suzuki which used to come with international standard quality. Kizashi was the best built car sold by Maruti till date. And its not only about test rating, the Kizashi indeed feels solid and well built compared to all other Maruti cars.