[audioholic]

That's correct. When haters continue hating, the only thing happening is its creating a buzz everywhere. There are more footfalls to showrooms and considerable bookings too. So lets cut this argument on why the car wont sell. MSIL definitely have brainy management who have been here from long, and they wouldn't do things just for the sake of selling a car in the C segment.

I guess by a year or so, we may expect 1.6L options once the S cross is out. As of now the pricing will be aggressive to attract buyers, and later I guess they can offer bigger engines. As Vid6639 mentioned, they have worked the strategy on this one. IMO, its perfectly planned taking into consideration various aspects. The same engine options meant they had to invest less on the product, which reduced the damage suppose the product failed. Next, these engines could get them a good FE number. Hence that aspect is looked at. Once R&D on the S-cross is over, they can move down the 1.6L engine from there and plonk it into the Ciaz. Like the Verna, lower variants will get the smaller engines and vice versa. Since currently the cost of the development is lesser, they can price it way less than competition. Later, get the bigger engine , price it along side the competition. No brainer here. Plain common sense. I think people should analyse such aspects before claiming to know the future of a car.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

This predicament reminds me of our decision way back in 2006 when we had walked into the Honda showroom to book the City ZX but ended up booking the Civic. 2-3 lakhs more and we got a way more futuristic and premium sedan with more equipment and showroom appeal. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the population would consider a Ciaz over the Dzire. Or a City over the Amaze. Or a Verna over the Xcent.

If any one has read my ownership thread he will know that's exactly what happened to me. I booked amaze and got to know of City launch. Found it better so got City over Amaze. No way if i had booked City and looked at Amaze i would have changed my decision. Someone who has a budget of Ciaz has a different set of requirements and perception of what he wants. He will never be satisfied with a Dzire which is inferior to Ciaz in every way.

Btw i am kinda surprised Ciaz has got only 3000 bookings so far. I was expecting much more.

[govigov]

Originally Posted by blacksport

You need to read from my first post.
Buyers considering non-maruti cars, are not going to buy a maruti.
The only people who would look at ciaz would be the maruti loyalists.
For that class of buyers, dzire offers better value. They would go to the cheapest "booted" car.

For the very last time, my argument is not about which is better, but which would sell. A better car need not always sell. I would come back after the sales numbers have spoken.

You are very wrong with this stereotypical mindset. People choose maruti because of its strong service networks and 'no headache' cars that they offer. People are looking at other cars because of the better features/specs offered else where. With the CIAZ they have got this covered. People would happily buy the CIAZ knowing that they have a feature rich car.

[KRN]

The CIAZ ticks all the right boxes for me except that the petrol engine (from reviews) seems a bit underwhelming and there seems to be no AT at least for now.

The Honda City petrol looks much more exciting purely from an engine perspective, but love Ciaz for rest of the package. Or should I just spend the extra bucks and buy the diesel Ciaz (and miss the AT)?

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by blacksport

You need to read from my first post.
Buyers considering non-maruti cars, are not going to buy a maruti.
The only people who would look at ciaz would be the maruti loyalists.
For that class of buyers, dzire offers better value. They would go to the cheapest "booted" car.

Sorry to say, it is really not nice to look down at a certain class of buyers. Do you mean to say that close to 50% of the car-buying population are going for a Suzuki just to show their brand loyalty?

Originally Posted by blacksport

For the very last time, my argument is not about which is better, but which would sell. A better car need not always sell.

Valid point! But wrt Ciaz, I feel this is one of the best looking effort from Maruti in recent years. To add on, it got class-leading space, pleasing interiors, excellent FE - some of the key factors that buyers look in this segment. IMO, the Ciaz has all the ingredients to be a blockbuster (unless they do a Kizashi-like pricing fiasco).

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

A buyer looking at Dzire will see the Ciaz, with better performance, features, full size sedan, proper boot, amazing rear legroom, way more premium and all that for maybe 2-3 lakhs more than a Dzire. He will start reworking his finances.

You did not just say that! A Dzire buyer will not cross shop with Ciaz because it is just '2-3' lakhs more. Heck that's an extra 35-50% of the cost of the Dzire that he is buying depending on what model you are buying.
Secondly, Ciaz has chance only if it is priced less than Verna/City combine. Anything more and I do not see it selling much, atleast not in significant numbers. Honda has almost everything that a typical Maruti buyer would want in his car - nice interiors, fuel efficient and powerful diesel, reliability and badge.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by harry10

Btw i am kinda surprised Ciaz has got only 3000 bookings so far. I was expecting much more.

Bro, that's more than what the Linea, Vento, Rapid, Fiesta sell in a month. Nearing the Verna mark. Not good enough in three days?

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

You did not just say that! A Dzire buyer will not cross shop with Ciaz because it is just '2-3' lakhs more. Heck that's an extra 35-50% of the cost of the Dzire that he is buying depending on what model you are buying.

That is true. It won't happen a lot, but I have seen it happen. A person looking for a small hatch walks into the showroom and come out with something 2 segments bigger.

They think the price is 2-3 lakhs more but suddenly it is only 5K per month additional EMI and the dream to own a big car.

You don't see someone walking into the showroom with a 12L budget and walking out with 8L car.

Secondly, Ciaz has chance only if it is priced less than Verna/City combine. Anything more and I do not see it selling much, atleast not in significant numbers. Honda has almost everything that a typical Maruti buyer would want in his car - nice interiors, fuel efficient and powerful diesel, reliability and badge.

Yup. Pricing is the key factor here but I have this feeling that Maruti will pull a rabbit out of the bag. I'm looking at the Ertiga prices and see that it is brilliantly priced. The Ciaz has the same engine lineup but is more premium. Plus the Honda City and Hyundai Verna are not exactly priced as VFM.

The Mobilio shares similar engines than the City and is around 1.2L less than City. The Ertiga is 2.7L away from the City and 1.3L away from the Mobilio.

If you assume Maruti will price the Ciaz around 1.5L or even 2L above the Ertiga, that's easily around 1L lesser than City.

They have a lot of headroom in pricing actually and it's not difficult for someone like MAruti to go against the City/Verna in terms of pricing. That should be their trump card actually.

We have to wait and see but I have my fingers crossed

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

You don't see someone walking into the showroom with a 12L budget and walking out with 8L car.

Have seen examples of this case as well, although rare -

1. My own personal experience where we did a TD of cars upto the level of Chevrolet Cruze, only to realise later that a hatchback like Punto suits all our requirements (specially ease of parking) and pulls the heart strings as well.

2. Two pages back, we have a member who booked Ciaz inspite of having looked at the Corolla initially.

3. Civic sales taking a hit after the launch of the 3rd generation City.

4. Your own example where you were suggesting that the Elite i20 fits the bill just perfect against your current Corolla.

I think its all about the smaller segment car suiting your particular requirements. A case of xx% car for xx% less money.

That said - I dont see any reasons the DZire would fit the requirements for someone who is looking for a car from the Ciaz segment.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

1. My own personal experience where we did a TD of cars upto the level of Chevrolet Cruze, only to realise later that a hatchback like Punto suits all our requirements (specially ease of parking) and pulls the heart strings as well.

2. Two pages back, we have a member who booked Ciaz inspite of having looked at the Corolla initially.

3. Civic sales taking a hit after the launch of the 3rd generation City.

4. Your own example where you were suggesting that the Elite i20 fits the bill just perfect against your current Corolla.

I think its all about the smaller segment car suiting your particular requirements. A case of xx% car for xx% less money.

That said - I dont see any reasons the DZire would fit the requirements for someone who is looking for a car from the Ciaz segment.

Yup C_D, what you said is perfectly true. That is even covered in our thread:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...a-et-al-9.html

All the examples you mentioned barring yours are mine which are just weird ones () are related to guys who were looking at D1 and moved to C2.

And that's because that's where all the action is. The C2 segment sedans are so close to cars like Civic, Altis, Cruze and Elantra in terms of features, space and size that they really throw off the buyer. And the difference is not just a couple of lakhs but 6-7L more.

Can you imagine that the new City and most likely the Ciaz has more rear legroom than the Civic, Altis, Elantra and Cruze at the back as well as more features than some of them.

On the other hand cross shopping from a C2 sedan like Ciaz to Dzire will not be that common.

PS: I was looking at a third car as a beater. Driver ran away so essentially Altis is parked in basement. Having a huge car for groceries, temple and nearby errands is not making sense.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Bro, that's more than what the Linea, Vento, Rapid, Fiesta sell in a month. Nearing the Verna mark. Not good enough in three days?

Can't compare those with Ciaz. With the strong brand name Maruti has I was expecting a 6-7k booking figure. Maybe people are waiting for TD as public has become more smart.

[zenren]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

You did not just say that! A Dzire buyer will not cross shop with Ciaz because it is just '2-3' lakhs more. Heck that's an extra 35-50% of the cost of the Dzire that he is buying depending on what model you are buying.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

They think the price is 2-3 lakhs more but suddenly it is only 5K per month additional EMI and the dream to own a big car.

2-3 lakhs is typically if you compare between same variants. In a lot of cases, potential buyer of a mid-variant Dzire might be looking at the base variant of Ciaz which would mean a much smaller margin - probably a 1.5-2L difference, even if we assume similar pricing as City. Ciaz being a segment higher would likely offer some of the features (found in Dzire only from V variant) as standard even in base variant and ticking most of the check boxes for the buyer. Most recent example: Amaze VX vs City S having just 1.5L difference.

Moreover, Dzire has overtaken Alto in monthly sales, with Amaze and Xcent also selling well. We'll soon start seeing the general public looking at compact sedans as too common on road and on par with hatch back in status symbol which would tilt in favour of C2 sedans again.

Remember, Maruti 800 enjoyed a royal status among the Ambassadors and Padminis in the past. So it is most likely that the crowd interprets the most common body style as less premium to the less common ones.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Pricing is the key factor here but I have this feeling that Maruti will pull a rabbit out of the bag. I'm looking at the Ertiga prices and see that it is brilliantly priced. The Ciaz has the same engine lineup but is more premium. Plus the Honda City and Hyundai Verna are not exactly priced as VFM.

The Mobilio shares similar engines than the City and is around 1.2L less than City. The Ertiga is 2.7L away from the City and 1.3L away from the Mobilio.

If you assume Maruti will price the Ciaz around 1.5L or even 2L above the Ertiga, that's easily around 1L lesser than City.

True. Not to mention that the engine size in Ciaz is smaller than the City and Verna. So Maruti is likely to create a "C2-" segment with Ciaz and leech off customers rather than pitch it directly at City/Verna and get head-on comparison charts listing them as the worst in the segment. They've successfully done this in Swift-i20 battle as well as the Ertiga-Innova battle in the past. So it is likely to follow suit.

With 5 variants (L,V,V+,Z,Z+) likely to come in, they might be able to cover a much broader spectrum.

[ramassrs]

Just wondering why Nissan Sunny/Renault Pulse hasnt been compared to Maruti Ciaz.

It should serve as an eye-opener to Nissan-Renault here in India.

IMHO, the Dealership & A.S.S. penetration and overall after-sales and ownership experience play a very important part in an individual's decision making.

Probably Renault-Nissan need to work hard in this area to be a significant player.

Thanks,

Ramas.

[rajneeesh]

Backsport, As an SX4 owner I would like to voice my opinion as well. When I got my SX4 the Dzire had just been launched. This was the old Dzire with the bigger boot. Well I did check it out and despite a lot of common bits the two cars were very different.

The comfort and the power of the SX4 is in a different league. The SX 4 sold very well in the initial stages. What set it back were the launch of the new generation City which the people in the segment preferred in a big way. The New cars from Hyundai ( Verna) and the VW group which had good Diesel engines also made the things tough for the SX4 which for a long time did not have a Diesel power-plant. When MSIL did launch the Diesel, it was a bit too late. The market now wanted fresher products.

Moreover, the SX4 being based on a crossover platform was much heavier at 1200 KG ( Petrol)than the sedans in its segment. It also picked up a reputation of being a fuel guzzler( though I get a very decent 11.5 KPL) which kept people away.

The Ciaz is a fresh car although it shares the engines from the Ertiga & SX4 ( Diesel) . However, this car is a lot lighter than the Ertiga and the SX4 so it should be very fuel efficient. It also offers a long list of goodies.

With the MSIL network this car has a good chance. Dzire with its chopped off boot, lower equipment list and space is definitely not in the same class.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by ramassrs

Just wondering why Nissan Sunny/Renault Pulse hasnt been compared to Maruti Ciaz.

It should serve as an eye-opener to Nissan-Renault here in India.

Because their main USP for both the cars were space and back seat comfort. Not only there were no other major strengths, they had some weakness as well in the forum of dealership strength, interior design and quality etc.

With the launch of the Honda City & now Ciaz - both of which offers great backseat comfort (Ciaz based on reviews) along with a whole lot of other strengths- these cars have now lost their relavance.

Note - Its the Renault Scala and not the Pulse thats based on Sunny.