[Nikhilb2008]

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

I think every person has a different perspective of the kind of fast car he or she wants. But when it comes to actual engineering, I think American cars are in no way inferior to their European or Japanese competitors. I am pretty sure that you cannot find the kind of technology which is there in a Z06 for under 80000$ in any road car, European or Japanese. Or you will never find a car with as much grunt as a Dodge Viper for the price you get it for.
If you just look at the latest offerings from the big 3, you'll see the technology they use in no way inferior to what is used in other parts of the world (VVT, DOD, Gasoline Direct Injection, Magnetic Ride Control etc etc). So what if the Americans like a little more power because of their wide roads, it doesn't mean that they make crappy cars. Also in my opinion, Americans make some pretty damn good looking cars as well.

I think you are wrong there. The Mustang still used Leaf Springs in the rear suspension just a couple of years back(I dont know if Ford have woken up now. So, I cant speak in the present tense).

And you talk abt price. The reason why American cars are priced so much lower than the European cars is because they simply dont handle as well. Of course, Ferrari/Lambo etc also charge a premium for the badge.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

I think many people have the misconception that if an engine has dohc, it is somewhat superior to those without DOHC. Some of the best engines in the world right now do not come with DOHC. As an example, consider the biturbo 6L V12 SOHC AMG used in many high end Mercs. It is in no way inferior to it's DOHC counterparts. Many automotive companies prefer not to use DOHC in their engine heads because of certain torque and rpm requirements. Japanese companies tend to use it in everything they make, and since in Asia they are really popular, people get the feeling that if they have a DOHC engine, it is better than the rest.

In fact, when I was a kid, people were so fascinated with the term that I used to see stickers on a Maruti 800 reading Twin Cam 16 valve. I'm sure you guys also must have seen it somewhere. In my opinion, the Japanese make low torque high revving engines which are pretty much useless in city driving unless you downshift every 10 seconds (be it manual or automatic). Check out the specs for the Civic Si and the Jetta GTI. Both have the exact same amount of power but the Jetta has approx. 50 ft lbs of torque more and at a much lower rpm range.

Also if you check out Chevy's offerings in the entry level segment in North America, you'll see that most of them have DOHC. It's not that they don't know how to use DOHC in their engines, it's just that they prefer not to use it in the Z06 now because of certain factors only known to them. Also they were the first to incorporate VVT with a pushrod, something which had never been done before.

The Viper nad the Corvetter use such huge engines. But the power they manage to get from that is really pathetic. Give the Europeans an 8litre V8 and see what sort of power they will be extract from it.

Originally Posted by ac 427

fastest car of all times : SSC AERO THRUST.

Fastest Production car : The Bugatti Veyron.

End of discussion.

the Aero SSC is also a production car. They are producing a small number of them.

[sujaylahiri]

Originally Posted by nikhilb2008

I think you are wrong there. The Mustang still used Leaf Springs in the rear suspension just a couple of years back(I dont know if Ford have woken up now. So, I cant speak in the present tense).

And you talk abt price. The reason why American cars are priced so much lower than the European cars is because they simply dont handle as well. Of course, Ferrari/Lambo etc also charge a premium for the badge.



The Viper nad the Corvetter use such huge engines. But the power they manage to get from that is really pathetic. Give the Europeans an 8litre V8 and see what sort of power they will be extract from it.

The Mustang doesn't have the leaf springs any more, but at the back it still uses a live rear axle which is unheard of in any car these days. But the Mustang being a cheap muscle car doesn't need tricked out suspensions to beat track records. It is only supposed to go fast in a straight line like other muscle cars. And name me one car with a 300 HP V8 and such features as a Mustang which costs close to 26000 $ (or even less with dealer discounts).

Also, the Viper and the Corvette might have big 7 and 8 litre engines, but the weight of the LS7 in the Z06 is as much as any other European engine producing the equivalent amount of power if not less. This is made possible by the use of lightweight materials in their construction. In the end, if you compare the power to weight ratio of both the cars, you will see that they are right there at the top with all the other European offerings. And as far as handling is concerned, check the lap times on the Top Gear website.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by danlalan

This isnt really funny now its becoming more of an AMERICA vs the rest of the world thread than anything else.

THE FASTEST CAR IN THE WORLD???

AMERICA'S---->> THRUST SSC.

Can the rest of the world do anything about it????

Not for now atleast.

Thrust SSC is American? When the news came out in the magazines i remember reading about it as a British effort. Well to confirm it i went to Wikpedia. Here's what wiki says.

Thrust SSC (SuperSonic Car) is a British designed and built jet-propelled car developed by Richard Noble, Glynne Bowsher, Ron Ayers and Jeremy Bliss,[1] which holds the world land speed record, set on October 15, 1997, when it achieved a speed of 1,228 km/h (763 mph) and became the first land vehicle to officially break the sound barrier, not considering the earlier, unsubstantiated claim of the Budweiser Rocket. The car was driven by Wing Commander Andy Green in the Black Rock Desert in Nevada United States. It was powered by two afterburningRolls-Royce Spey engines as used in British F-4 Phantom II jet fighters.


In 1983 Richard Noble had broken the world land speed record with his earlier car Thrust2, which reached a speed of 1,018 km/h (633 mph). Both ThrustSSC and Thrust2 are displayed at the Coventry Transport Museum in Coventry, England.

[kroniq]

i agree ssc thrust is the fastest car but cannot be used on the roads.it was tested in a desert.

[AnniHilat0R]

This might be offtopic, but just came across this news so thought of posting it.

A Brabus-tuned Maybach 57 has set a world speed record at the Nardo test track, Italy, hitting 205.2mph.

Thanks to its 6.3 litre SV12 S bi-turbo lump, the Brabus Maybach 57 pumps out 730bhp and an electronically limited, 811 lb ft of torque.


Brabus may have set a new speed record for the ultra-luxury market but have not beaten the speed record for street-legal saloon, which still stands at 227.2 mph set by the Brabus Rocket back in October 2006.

[pawan]

Originally Posted by nikhilb2008

The Viper nad the Corvetter use such huge engines. But the power they manage to get from that is really pathetic. Give the Europeans an 8litre V8 and see what sort of power they will be extract from it.

you know what those engines can do 7000-8000 whp.
its not that they can only get so much.thye concentrate on torque so that it becomes more easy for street driving conditions.

the older cars arent built for track they are only fun to drive powerful cars.why do you guys say because the older cars cant handle the newer cant handle to.if its that way if the honda city cant handle then even the honda nsx cant handle to.

[R32_GTR]

Another one with some fighter aircraft styling..

Vector WX8 | Auto Express News | News | Auto Express

[doomsday]

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

I think many people have the misconception that if an engine has dohc, it is somewhat superior to those without DOHC. Some of the best engines in the world right now do not come with DOHC. As an example, consider the biturbo 6L V12 SOHC AMG used in many high end Mercs. It is in no way inferior to it's DOHC counterparts. Many automotive companies prefer not to use DOHC in their engine heads because of certain torque and rpm requirements. Japanese companies tend to use it in everything they make, and since in Asia they are really popular, people get the feeling that if they have a DOHC engine, it is better than the rest.

Can you enlighten us what these torque and rpm requirements are? And why SOHCs are preferred over DOHCs in these implementations?

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

In fact, when I was a kid, people were so fascinated with the term that I used to see stickers on a Maruti 800 reading Twin Cam 16 valve. I'm sure you guys also must have seen it somewhere.

Yeah, true. I have seen these stickers often. But I can bet my bike's cam that the people who have put those stickers on their rides and in some cases who have sold them to the guy purchasing it, cannot differentiate a cam from their b*ms.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

In my opinion, the Japanese make low torque high revving engines which are pretty much useless in city driving unless you downshift every 10 seconds (be it manual or automatic). Check out the specs for the Civic Si and the Jetta GTI. Both have the exact same amount of power but the Jetta has approx. 50 ft lbs of torque more and at a much lower rpm range.

Dude... You are comparing a NA engine with a FI one. The Jetta engine has a VGT and hence the torque figure will be significantly higher. Compare two NA engines and then you can talk about power/torque ratings. Because those are two different classes altogether. You cannot expect to run in organized drag event with a FI car and expect to compete with a NA (even though both engines have equal displacements) car which is a different class altogether. (Expect open class wherein everything is allowed) And I've not even come down to handling yet.

Trivia: Which NA mass-production engine has the highest power output/liter till date???

Answer: Honda's F20C used in the S2000 AP1. (125 bhp/ltr) It is a 2L engine rated at 250 bhp (JDM)

Americans will probably need a 3.5 L V6 or more to produce the same amount of power.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

Also if you check out Chevy's offerings in the entry level segment in North America, you'll see that most of them have DOHC. It's not that they don't know how to use DOHC in their engines, it's just that they prefer not to use it in the Z06 now because of certain factors only known to them. Also they were the first to incorporate VVT with a pushrod, something which had never been done before.

If you want to implement VVT and extract the most out of it, an engine needs to be a DOHC. On a SOHC engine, you cannot implement VVT on both intake and exhaust valves. (Let me know if you want a detailed explanation on this)

Originally Posted by danlalan

My god you have to be kidding to be comparing F1 with Nascar. Why do you claim nascar to be the funniest sport in the world???? any logical reasons???

Race cars used in NASCAR series still have leaf-spring suspensions at the back with a torsion-beam. Thats reason enough. And the so-called tracks are nothing but high-speed bowls with banked turns and longer straights. With a 5.2L small block NA, they still manage ~700 bhp or so. And it is a race-spec engine, not a street spec one.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

I think every person has a different perspective of the kind of fast car he or she wants. But when it comes to actual engineering, I think American cars are in no way inferior to their European or Japanese competitors. I am pretty sure that you cannot find the kind of technology which is there in a Z06 for under 80000$ in any road car, European or Japanese. Or you will never find a car with as much grunt as a Dodge Viper for the price you get it for.

Can you please enlighten us what breakthrough technology has been used on the Z06?? It is an all-aluminum small block with big block dimensions, carbon fiber panels and suspension which has never being used in any American cars before.

Although, I concede the fact that it is one of the best cars ever made by America, or for that matter even by any manufacturer in the world.

But above cannot be said about the Dodge Viper. This video will substantiate my point:

YouTube - Ferrari vs Dodge Viper - See Who Wins

.

The only arena where American engines make a mark are in the Top-fuel/funny car competitions. And that is only because the engine displacement is the only way out for faster 1/4 mile times running nitromethane and all sorts of high octane fuel combinations. The days a Japanese or for that matter a European manufacturer comes out with a 7 L engine, that'll be the end of the American regime in this arena. But I guess this will not happen in a long time, simply because they do not need a 7 L engine, as they can make more powerful and better handling cars with far less displacement.

[pawan]

Originally Posted by doomsday

Can you enlighten us what these torque and rpm requirements are? And why SOHCs are preferred over DOHCs in these implementations?

for smaller engines ohc is the way to go because you need to rev a lot to to use the gearing necessary for faster acceleration.

the reason for larger engines it is not much of a problem whether you rev to 10k or 20k rpm since your are going to be producing much more torque in the lower rpm range and hence lower gearing.

if you are not going to rev that much ohc wont be needed.
say engines like the ls6 rev to about 7k rpm a\with out any float it doesn't need to go any higher.

it all depends on your application wheather you need a high reving car or a lower gearing torquey car.

Originally Posted by doomsday

Dude... You are comparing a NA engine with a FI one. The Jetta engine has a VGT and hence the torque figure will be significantly higher. Compare two NA engines and then you can talk about power/torque ratings. Because those are two different classes altogether. You cannot expect to run in organized drag event with a FI car and expect to compete with a NA (even though both engines have equal displacements) car which is a different class altogether. (Expect open class wherein everything is allowed) And I've not even come down to handling yet.

Trivia: Which NA mass-production engine has the highest power output/liter till date???

Answer: Honda's F20C used in the S2000 AP1. (125 bhp/ltr) It is a 2L engine rated at 250 bhp (JDM)

Americans will probably need a 3.5 L V6 or more to produce the same amount of power.

as i said in my earlier post it depends on you application.

ok how many cars have you seen that can with 350 bhp go 0-60 mph in about 3.5 sec with a car that weighs more than 3000 lbs.the car i am talking about is a charger.

Originally Posted by doomsday

If you want to implement VVT and extract the most out of it, an engine needs to be a DOHC. On a SOHC engine, you cannot implement VVT on both intake and exhaust valves. (Let me know if you want a detailed explanation on this)

you do know that the viper acr srt10 has a vvt.

Originally Posted by doomsday

Race cars used in NASCAR series still have leaf-spring suspensions at the back with a torsion-beam. Thats reason enough. And the so-called tracks are nothing but high-speed bowls with banked turns and longer straights. With a 5.2L small block NA, they still manage ~700 bhp or so. And it is a race-spec engine, not a street spec one.

you mentioned in your own post the reason they dont take turns and hence why would the need be for exceptional handling.

Originally Posted by doomsday

But above cannot be said about the Dodge Viper. This video will substantiate my point:

YouTube - Ferrari vs Dodge Viper - See Who Wins.

The only arena where American engines make a mark are in the Top-fuel/funny car competitions. And that is only because the engine displacement is the only way out for faster 1/4 mile times running nitromethane and all sorts of high octane fuel combinations. The days a Japanese or for that matter a European manufacturer comes out with a 7 L engine, that'll be the end of the American regime in this arena. But I guess this will not happen in a long time, simply because they do not need a 7 L engine, as they can make more powerful and better handling cars with far less displacement.

ok first of why do you go by you tube i can show you so many more videos from you tube of american cars whooping the day lights of many cars.

ok how about lemans with the saleen's and corvette making their point there to like the corvette winning it 3-4 times in a row.

ok regarding your 1/4 mile can you tell me if those skylines or supras or for that matter any of those cars still a skyline or a supra other than the shell.

the reason you dont see jap cars or euro cars with 7l is because of their application so why don't maruthi come out with a 10l car it would be a top manufacture and how many people would buy the car owing to the fuel crisis here.

[doomsday]

Originally Posted by pawan

if you are not going to rev that much ohc wont be needed.
say engines like the ls6 rev to about 7k rpm a\with out any float it doesn't need to go any higher.

it all depends on your application wheather you need a high reving car or a lower gearing torquey car.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

I think many people have the misconception that if an engine has dohc, it is somewhat superior to those without DOHC. Some of the best engines in the world right now do not come with DOHC. As an example, consider the biturbo 6L V12 SOHC AMG used in many high end Mercs. It is in no way inferior to it's DOHC counterparts. Many automotive companies prefer not to use DOHC in their engine heads because of certain torque and rpm requirements. Japanese companies tend to use it in everything they make, and since in Asia they are really popular, people get the feeling that if they have a DOHC engine, it is better than the rest.

And my reply:

Originally Posted by doomsday

If you want to implement VVT and extract the most out of it, an engine needs to be a DOHC. On a SOHC engine, you cannot implement VVT on both intake and exhaust valves. (Let me know if you want a detailed explanation on this)

As you can see from the above snippets, I was trying to substantiate the point that the term DOHC is not just another acronym to boost car sales. We are arguing about SOHC Vs. DOHC and not Pushrods Vs. OHC as perceived by you.

And check this post to see a detailed explanation why a DOHC engine is usually more efficient than a SOHC one.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...tml#post564195

Originally Posted by pawan

you do know that the viper acr srt10 has a vvt.

Check the link above.

Originally Posted by doomsday

Dude... You are comparing a NA engine with a FI one. The Jetta engine has a VGT and hence the torque figure will be significantly higher. Compare two NA engines and then you can talk about power/torque ratings. Because those are two different classes altogether. You cannot expect to run in organized drag event with a FI car and expect to compete with a NA (even though both engines have equal displacements) car which is a different class altogether. (Expect open class wherein everything is allowed) And I've not even come down to handling yet.

Trivia: Which NA mass-production engine has the highest power output/liter till date???

Answer: Honda's F20C used in the S2000 AP1. (125 bhp/ltr) It is a 2L engine rated at 250 bhp (JDM)

Americans will probably need a 3.5 L V6 or more to produce the same amount of power.

And your reply:

Originally Posted by pawan

as i said in my earlier post it depends on you application.

What application? It clearly shows that American engines are not as efficient as their Japanese and European counterparts.

Originally Posted by pawan

ok how many cars have you seen that can with 350 bhp go 0-60 mph in about 3.5 sec with a car that weighs more than 3000 lbs.the car i am talking about is a charger.

Dodge Charger 0-60 mph in 3.5 secs???

Dude I seriously request you to check your sources. NO Charger ever produced can run to 60 under 5 seconds... Forget 3.5... If you have some source that quotes 3.5 seconds for a stock Charger, please bring it to our notice. And do read the fine print that might be saying *Supercharged*. And this includes the 426 (which as you might be aware of, is conservatively rated at 425 horses not just 350), Charger 500 and the Daytona.

The quarter mile is usually in mid and late 13s.

Check out these links:

Musclecarclub.com - Dodge Charger - History
Howstuffworks "The 1969 Dodge Charger Explained"
Howstuffworks "1969 Dodge Charger 500 & Daytona: A Profile of a Muscle Car"

For comparison a stock NSX with 290 bhp with a 3.5 L V6 runs the quarter mile in early 13s. Check this video, and in case you are think it is some home-made youtube video, it is not. This is Best Motoring, the best video magazine in Japan and with some of the finest drivers in the world.

YouTube - Ferrari F355 vs Honda NSX-R

And it is not someone's problem that the Charger weighs over 3000 lbs. The last word is performance, and that's all what matters. Dodge should have thought before launching a car weighing as much.

Originally Posted by pawan

ok how about lemans with the saleen's and corvette making their point there to like the corvette winning it 3-4 times in a row.

Yeah they made their point. Just. Winning 3-4 races in a row and then disappearing for a long time. The only notable mentions here are the GT 40s winning in the premier class from 1966 to 1969. If you go by the nations tally in the History of Le Mans, you will find America somewhere near the bottom.

Originally Posted by pawan

ok regarding your 1/4 mile can you tell me if those skylines or supras or for that matter any of those cars still a skyline or a supra other than the shell.

Yeah, but those Big Block V8s in the Funny Car or Top Fuel drags anywhere close to their road counterparts. Answer is a big NO. Only the Metal used to manufacture the Engine block is similar, and that too only on the outside. Everything internally is changed. And then some high octane fuel and a supercharger thrown in.

Originally Posted by pawan

the reason you dont see jap cars or euro cars with 7l is because of their application so why don't maruthi come out with a 10l car it would be a top manufacture and how many people would buy the car owing to the fuel crisis here.

Application?? U seem to use this word rather vaguely and very often. Ask an American company to build a 2 L engine street engine with 200 horses NA and then we'll talk.

And as to why we don't see mass production Jap/European engine with 7 L displacement is simply because they don't need them. Why waste fuel and sacrifice performance and handling when you can go faster in a car with a smaller engine and nimble handling.

[pawan]

a car is designed kept in mind a certain market and where the cars are going to be sold.
the American crowd prefer low revving torque cars.you say jap the engines are more efficient yes they are.

see at the crowd want torque cars thats why you don't see high revving engines.

those jap cars for the 2l class can you show me cars that are torque in the same liter class.

take for example a b16 has the torque rating of a little 1nm over a esteem. that should should show you the torque rating of these cars.

the reason you see all of Chevy or dodge lower liter cars are always fi because of the torque reason except for the demon which specs are almost same as k24.

the reason why those cars are large displacement is mainly for the torque reason.

edit:typo mistake for the 3.5 sec intended to be 5 sec.
regarding the weight shows you what torque can do propelling a 3000 lbs car to under 5 sec and i am talking about the 383 block and not the 426 hemi.

[Shan2nu]

take for example a b16 has the torque rating of a little 1nm over a esteem. that should should show you the torque rating of these cars.

Sorry dude, but you're not making any sense here. An Esteem produces around 110nm while B16 engines produce between 155-165nm (depending on the engine code). In what way does that equate to a diff of 1nm?

the reason why those cars are large displacement is mainly for the torque reason.

It's like this

1. It's easier and cheaper to make a 7L engine produce 500bhp.

2. But a big engine like this makes the car heavy.

3. And to make such a heavy car perform, you need loads of torque, which the 7L engine is capable of producing.

Had they used a 4L engine to produce the 500bhp, the car would end up a lot lighter (which means, less dead load on the suspension). Yes, it would have produced lower torque figures but the torque to weight ratio would still be the same.

So, what you end up with is a light car that is quick in a straight line, great around corners, more fuel efficient and compact

So, the torque and weight (which you guys seem to be so proud of) are just by-products of their decision to choose a bigger engine.

And let me tell you something about the torque as well. The Corvette Z06 engine produces 71.3 bhp/ltr and 97nm/ltr of engine capacity where as a B16A Civic engine produces 106bhp/ltr and 98nm/ltr of engine capacity.

So technically, the B16A engine is not only producing 34nm/ltr more but is also pushing out 1nm/ltr better than the Z06 engine.

When you talk engines, always talk "bhp" and "nm" wrt to total engine capacity. This is what determines it's efficiancy.

Shan2nu

[doomsday]

Originally Posted by pawan

a car is designed kept in mind a certain market and where the cars are going to be sold.
the American crowd prefer low revving torque cars.you say jap the engines are more efficient yes they are.

the reason why those cars are large displacement is mainly for the torque reason.

see at the crowd want torque cars thats why you don't see high revving engines.

those jap cars for the 2l class can you show me cars that are torque in the same liter class.

It doesn't matter what market the car caters to or what the crowd wants. When you compare two cars, irrespective of where they are manufactured, PERFORMANCE is the last word. Which means 0-60, 0-100, 100-0, 0-100-0, 1/4 mile etc. And thats it. It doesn't matter where the torque comes in, what is the redline and whether an engine is a SOHC or a DOHC or a pushrod. And of course you would know that around the world, expect perhaps America, drag events are held by classification of cubic capacity and aspiration (NA/FI) This is where an engine's efficiency comes in.

Originally Posted by pawan

take for example a b16 has the torque rating of a little 1nm over a esteem. that should should show you the torque rating of these cars.

Dude... PLEASE check and re-check your sources hitting the post button. You cannot just say that it was a typo and get along with it. You first say that a stock Charger does 60 in 3.5 seconds. Now you say that a B16 has just 1 Nm more torque than the archaic Suzuki engine in the Esteem.

I guess you have read the torque rating of both the engines on different units. One in lb-ft and the other in Nm. FYI, the B16 engine, in its lowest specification (the first B16A series [1988-91]) has ~150 Nm of torque. The Suzuki engine of the Esteem/Swift (G13) has ~115 Nm of torque. Come on man, these two engines aren't even on the same page. They cannot be compared at all. Even if the B16 had carbon copy internals of the G13, the extra 300 cc of displacement would be enough for a substantial torque difference. (Case in point the G16B, the Baleno engine)

The Suzuki engine does not implement any form of VVT and is a crude unit when compared to the precision B16 engines. And I'm not even taking the Type R spec engine into consideration.

Originally Posted by pawan

the reason you see all of Chevy or dodge lower liter cars are always fi because of the torque reason except for the demon which specs are almost same as k24.

I'm sorry but I couldn't understand your point here.

Originally Posted by pawan

edit:typo mistake for the 3.5 sec intended to be 5 sec.
regarding the weight shows you what torque can do propelling a 3000 lbs car to under 5 sec and i am talking about the 383 block and not the 426 hemi.

No charger without the HEMI block can run 60 under 6 seconds. Please provide a credible link where it says that a 383 cid Charger can do 60 in the 5 second range.

And at the cost of repeating myself, I would say that the Charger being a 3000 lbs is no one's but manufacturer's problem. No regulations stopped them from making them lighter and getting better performance rather than just popping in a bigger displacement engine and still lagging behind their Japanese/European counterparts.

P.S. The JDM Civic Type R FD2 does 0-60 under 6 seconds. It is a FWD 4 door sedan with a 2 L, 220 bhp, I-4 motor.

[Shan2nu]

So technically, the B16A engine is not only producing 34nm/ltr more but is also pushing out 1nm/ltr better than the Z06 engine.

Correction : I meant to say 34bhp/ltr.

Shan2nu

[abhibh]

9.3 V8
2,200 HP
0-60 1 sec
AND YES IT IS STREET LEGAL

http://clips***.com/flvplayer2.swf?c...m/4681/player/

Please change *** with w-t-f (remove "-" inbetween w-t-f)