[doomsday]

Originally Posted by abhibh

9.3 V8
2,200 HP
0-60 1 sec
AND YES IT IS STREET LEGAL

http://clips***.com/flvplayer2.swf?c...m/4681/player/

Please change *** with w-t-f (remove "-" inbetween w-t-f)

This car has been mentioned before. Check this link:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...tml#post627569

However, this thread is about the fastest car (top speed) and not the quickest one (accelaration). I don't think that this car will be anywhere close to stable at 200 mph+.

[pawan]

ok since we are talking about performance here lets get into specs na/fi/sohc/dohc/pushrod etc.. shouldn't matter since we are getting into performance and also price bracket.

1.jdm civic type r
looks real good 225 bhp 215 nm torque price-n.a

cobalt ss
turbo charged 260 bhp 353 nm torque price some where around 20-30k usd


well worth it more power.

2.honda s2000
237 bhp /220 nm torque 0-60mph <6 price 34k usd

mileage 20 city 25 highway

dodge srt 4
230 bhp/339 nm torque 0-60mph <5.8 price 20k usd.

22 city 30 highway

the clear winner here is the srt4.

3.honda accord coupe v6 3.5l
268 bhp/336 nm torque 0-60 < n.a price 28k usd.

mileage 17 city 25 highway

Chevrolet monte carlo ss v8 5l
303 bhp/438 nm torque 0-60 <n.a price 27k usd.

mileage 18 city 28 highway.

the monte is surely more worth the money here but v8 gas guzzlers?.

4.acura rsx type s 2l n.a


210 bhp / 194 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 23k usd.

mileage 23 city 31 highway


dodge caliber srt 4 turbo charger i4 2.3l

285 bhp / 352 nm torque 0-60 ~ 6.3 price 22.9k usd

mileage 21 city 26 highway

this is one is surely debatable could go either ways.

now for the big boys

5.acura nsx v6 3.1l

290 bhp/304 nm torque 0-60 5.0 price 89k usd.

mileage 17 city 24 highway

top speed - 270 kmph / 165 mph

chevorlet corvette v8 6l

430 bhp/ 575 nm torque 0-60 4.3 price 53k usd.

mileage n.a
top speed - 306 kmph / 190 mph.

the corvette takes the cake and its the base model not the z.

6.acura tl type s 3.5l v6

286 bhp / 347 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 38k usd

mileage 19 city 29 highway

top speed n.a


ford mustang gt v8 4.6l

300 bhp / 434 nm torque 0-60 5.2 price 25k usd.

mileage 17 city 25 highway

top speed 240 kmph / 149 mph.


so much more worth the money and saving so much money with the mustang.

7. nissan nismo 350z v6 3.5l

306 bhp / 363 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 38k usd.

mileage 19 city 26 highway

top speed n.a


ford mustang svt cobra v8 5.4l

385 bhp /522 nm torque 0-60 4.4 price n.a (some where around 40k usd )

mileage n.a

top speed 280 kmph 170 mph.

the reason i compared these two was because they were made by in house tuners svt and nismo.


8. nissan gt-r v6tt 3.5l

473 bhp / 588 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 70k usd.

mileage n.a

top speed n.a


ford shelby mustang gt500 v8 s/c 5.4l

500 bhp / 651 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 41k usd

mileage n.a

top speed n.a

guess this is a comparo between only the bhp and torque specs the shelby mustang is surely the winner.

9. Mitsubishi evo x turbo charged 2l

291 bhp / 407 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 30k usd approx

mileage n.a

top speed n.a

subaru impreza flat 4 turbo charged 2.4l

296 bhp / 407 nm torque 0-60n.a price some 30k usd

mileage n.a

top speed n.a


ford mustang v8 4.6l

300 bhp / 434 nm torque 0-60 5.2 price 25k usd.

mileage 17 city 25 highway

top speed 240 kmph 149 mph.

the reason i put the mustang in here is because of the price bracket.

i put the evo and sti only for the sake of it to compare stats only i know they are bred mainly keeping in mind rally.



no i dont hate jap cars for the matter i drive one.

coundnt compare cars like the z06 viper etc since none of the cars where in their league.

i have compared cars like city cars small cars and powerful cars trying to keep them in their own price bracket.

in almost all the comp the amrican cars surely were better .

i have not kept in mind factors like slalom track timing etc since there was not enough info available on those for all the cars.so kept only the specs and other important info like mileage and price.

all the mileage is in mph and timings is in seconds.

linky:rsports,serious wheels and google.

[doomsday]

Originally Posted by pawan

1.jdm civic type r
looks real good 225 bhp 215 nm torque price-n.a

cobalt ss
turbo charged 260 bhp 353 nm torque price some where around 20-30k usd


well worth it more power.

2.honda s2000
237 bhp /220 nm torque 0-60mph <6 price 34k usd

mileage 20 city 25 highway

dodge srt 4
230 bhp/339 nm torque 0-60mph <5.8 price 20k usd.

22 city 30 highway

the clear winner here is the srt4.

3.honda accord coupe v6 3.5l
268 bhp/336 nm torque 0-60 < n.a price 28k usd.

mileage 17 city 25 highway

Chevrolet monte carlo ss v8 5l
303 bhp/438 nm torque 0-60 <n.a price 27k usd.

mileage 18 city 28 highway.

the monte is surely more worth the money here but v8 gas guzzlers?.

4.acura rsx type s 2l n.a


210 bhp / 194 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 23k usd.

mileage 23 city 31 highway


dodge caliber srt 4 turbo charger i4 2.3l

285 bhp / 352 nm torque 0-60 ~ 6.3 price 22.9k usd

mileage 21 city 26 highway

this is one is surely debatable could go either ways.

now for the big boys

5.acura nsx v6 3.1l

290 bhp/304 nm torque 0-60 5.0 price 89k usd.

mileage 17 city 24 highway

top speed - 270 kmph / 165 mph

chevorlet corvette v8 6l

430 bhp/ 575 nm torque 0-60 4.3 price 53k usd.

mileage n.a
top speed - 306 kmph / 190 mph.

the corvette takes the cake and its the base model not the z.

6.acura tl type s 3.5l v6

286 bhp / 347 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 38k usd

mileage 19 city 29 highway

top speed n.a


ford mustang gt v8 4.6l

300 bhp / 434 nm torque 0-60 5.2 price 25k usd.

mileage 17 city 25 highway

top speed 240 kmph / 149 mph.


so much more worth the money and saving so much money with the mustang.

7. nissan nismo 350z v6 3.5l

306 bhp / 363 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 38k usd.

mileage 19 city 26 highway

top speed n.a


ford mustang svt cobra v8 5.4l

385 bhp /522 nm torque 0-60 4.4 price n.a (some where around 40k usd )

mileage n.a

top speed 280 kmph 170 mph.

the reason i compared these two was because they were made by in house tuners svt and nismo.


8. nissan gt-r v6tt 3.5l

473 bhp / 588 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 70k usd.

mileage n.a

top speed n.a


ford shelby mustang gt500 v8 s/c 5.4l

500 bhp / 651 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 41k usd

mileage n.a

top speed n.a

guess this is a comparo between only the bhp and torque specs the shelby mustang is surely the winner.

9. Mitsubishi evo x turbo charged 2l

291 bhp / 407 nm torque 0-60 n.a price 30k usd approx

mileage n.a

top speed n.a

subaru impreza flat 4 turbo charged 2.4l

296 bhp / 407 nm torque 0-60n.a price some 30k usd

mileage n.a

top speed n.a


ford mustang v8 4.6l

300 bhp / 434 nm torque 0-60 5.2 price 25k usd.

mileage 17 city 25 highway

top speed 240 kmph 149 mph.

the reason i put the mustang in here is because of the price bracket.

i put the evo and sti only for the sake of it to compare stats only i know they are bred mainly keeping in mind rally.



no i dont hate jap cars for the matter i drive one.

coundnt compare cars like the z06 viper etc since none of the cars where in their league.

i have compared cars like city cars small cars and powerful cars trying to keep them in their own price bracket.

in almost all the comp the amrican cars surely were better .

i am not kept in mind factors like slalom track timing etc since there was not enough info available on those for all the cars.so kept only the specs and other important info like mileage and price.

all the mileage is in mph and timings is in seconds.

linky:rsports,serious wheels and google.

Some heady research you have done there but sorry to say it doesn't get us anywhere. Reason: Read the post below.

Originally Posted by doomsday

It doesn't matter what market the car caters to or what the crowd wants. When you compare two cars, irrespective of where they are manufactured, PERFORMANCE is the last word. Which means 0-60, 0-100, 100-0, 0-100-0, 1/4 mile etc. And thats it. It doesn't matter where the torque comes in, what is the redline and whether an engine is a SOHC or a DOHC or a pushrod. And of course you would know that around the world, expect perhaps America, drag events are held by classification of cubic capacity and aspiration (NA/FI) This is where an engine's efficiency comes in.

Originally Posted by pawan

ok since we are talking about performance here lets get into specs doubt if na/fi/sohc/dohc/pushrod etc.. shouldn't matter since we are getting into performance and also price bracket.

So you see quite clearly where you have gone wrong. You can't turn up in a Cobalt SS (which is FI) and expect to compete with the Civic Type R (which is NA). Neither can you expect to get a go against a S2K in a SRT-4. And the same holds true for the other comparisons as well, except perhaps the last part wherin all cars are FI (but not in the same capacity category) But then there are no concrete figures for any of these newly launched rides so they cannot be compared. To get any further what you need to do is compare cars in the similar engine capacity and aspiration and leave out details like price/FE etc. which do not pertain to the performance aspect.

For that matter, I also don't hate American cars. I'm a HEMI fan myself. But the fact is that those cars and engines were great in their times (60s and 70s) but unfortunately they havn't kept pace with the times and the Japs and Europeans have seriously upped the ante. Nowadays American cars are only used for showboating and not enthusiastic driving. And of course the funny car/Top Fuel competitions. (Although they are just the engines)

Another aspect is the price. Needless to say, any car will be cheapest in the country that it is manufactured. So while a Shelby Mustang GT 500 costs ~$50,000 in the US, by the time it gets to UK, it costs a whopping US$90000. That puts it in the company of many quicker and most importantly better handling cars. One needs to check the retail price of the car in the country that it has been manufactured in, and then convert the price into a common currency before comparing it.

[pawan]

well since we are talking about performance here thats the reason i put the specs up.

made it on price details because thats what you buy a car by and showed you a option what you have and how in almost every way those cars are better.since due to lack of info on things like 1/4 mile etc i kept it in price bracket since its available by the plenty on the internet and kept production cars only. also numbers speak a lot when buying cars.

i know that cars like the american cars,jdm cars are going to be costly in some other parts of the world so kept it in a price which was available in their respective countries where sold.

[doomsday]

Originally Posted by pawan

well since we are talking about performance here thats the reason i put the specs up.

made it on price details because thats what you buy a car by and showed you a option what you have and how in almost every way those cars are better.since due to lack of info on things like 1/4 mile etc i kept it in price bracket since its available by the plenty on the internet and kept production cars only. also numbers speak a lot when buying cars.

i know that cars like the american cars,jdm cars are going to be costly in some other parts of the world so kept it in a price which was available in their respective countries where sold.

Yeah performance is what we are looking for. But performance in the same category where your car is expected to compete, which is dictated by the cubic capacity and aspiration. I'm not saying that the two cars should have the same cubic capacity to the ones place, but something like 2 to 2.5 L, 2.5-3.0 L etc. And the aspiration should be similar. These are the factors to be kept in mind while comparing performace of two cars. And of course, all these figures don't consider handling and it is not exactly a secret that the Jap and European cars generally handle better. However, lately some American cars have impressed with handling which is at par with Japanese and European counterparts. The first example is of course the 'Vette Z06 and the second underrated example is the Pontiac Solstice Roadster. Small and nippy handler, something on the lines of the Miata.

[pawan]

well i planned to keep it the same category at first then noticed none of the cars posted above was common since they both had different approach to their way of getting power japs mainly noticed high revving engines where the American preferred to go fi or high displacement engines.

then there would not be any comp in either types of cars except for the faster cars like the vette viper nsx etc..

so thats why i decided to keep it in price bracket.since at the end of the day all we want is power.

and for me give me the high displacement and oodles of torque .

[doomsday]

Originally Posted by pawan

well i planned to keep it the same category at first then noticed none of the cars posted above was common since they both had different approach to their way of getting power japs mainly noticed high revving engines where the American preferred to go fi or high displacement engines.

then there would not be any comp in either types of cars except for the faster cars like the vette viper nsx etc..

so thats why i decided to keep it in price bracket.since at the end of the day all we want is power.

Yup, the power and more importantly good handling. Thats what the Japs and Europeans score on and Americans will need some time to realise that people everyone does not prefer only arrow straight line performance but like their cars to handle well.

Check this out: It'll throw up quite a few surprises.
Nordschleife fastest lap times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 276 bhp NSX-R is way quicker than the 500 bhp odd Dodge Viper SRT 10 and as quick as a 405 bhp Z06, given the fact the 'ring has almost a 4 km back straight.

Edit: They have tested the New Skyline on the 'ring already. Did a 7.38. That is quick by any standards for a road car. Heres the video:

YouTube - Nissan GT-R runs a 7:38 at Nurburgring

[iridium]

Check out Lotus Cars USA

[AnniHilat0R]

Alrite, some more news on fast cars.

AC Schnitzer has built the world’s fastest LPG powered car. AC Schnitzer is a Tuning Company specializing in BMW's and Mini's.

Schnitzer used the new BMW 3-Series Coupe, and snappily named ‘GP3.10 Gas Powered’. It clocked a mighty 197mph on southern Italy's 8 mile long high speed Nardo track.

The car uses a modified M5 engine.

[sujaylahiri]

Looks like this thread received a lot of activity when I wasn't able to check it. Anyway I got a few things to say here.

Valve actuation does not really have much bearing on power output as racing has shown.

However, if you need a small engine to make the hp of a large engine, you need to force feed it, or increase the RPMs. When you increase rpms, OHC designs allow more consistent valve actuation at higher rpms (Chevy 350s run over 9000rpm in NASCAR so pushrods can move quickly)

the problem with OHC designs is the increased size, noise and rotational moment of the moment.

For example, a SOHC 4.6 or 5.4 ford engine, is larger than the IH 444 block diesel. Kinda interferes with aerodynamic body designs.

Plus, take a cam for a V8, has 5 bearings to oil. The same v8, if only a SOHC has 10, if DOHC it has 20. This means increased demand on the oiling system to deliver high pressure oil to the very top of the motor - not an easy feat. (the most common failure of OHC motors is in fact damage due to top end oil starvation)

Also, OHV motors are usually chain driven for the cam, nice and reliable - chains rarely break. OHC designs use external belts, which break often if not changed often and add a lot of noise.

So they both have their advantaged and disadvantages. And if someone says that pushrods are inefficient or produce less bhp/ltr, I'd advise them to compare the weight of the LS7 with other naturally aspirated engines producing the same amount of power (505 HP). You'll notice that the LS7 despite having a larger displacement actually weighs the same or less as other OHC offerings with similar output but lower displacements.

Also @ doomsday, if you think that the Z06 is an "all-aluminum small block with big block dimensions, carbon fiber panels and suspension which has never being used in any American cars before", you need to look a little bit further. First of all, Chevy hasn't used the big block on the Corvette for a really long time, so you really cannot compare the Z06's dimensions to them. Secondly, it uses a dry sump oil system, something which you don't find in cars in that price range.
Then we are also talking about titanium connecting rods, again something which you don't get for that price. Then the whole frame is aluminum, which is pretty neat. Also it was one of the only cars in the US to produce more than 500 HP and not be qualified for the gas guzzler tax.
Also did I mention that with all these features it was also pretty successful at beating competing 911's and Lamborghinis around the top gear test track which cost over 3 times it's price. And the fact that you can buy all this from a showroom not more than 100 miles away from your house with GM's amazing warranty and their Onstar system and not from some exclusive showroom in some big city where you are only allowed if you are invited makes it really impressive according to me.
It's like the car next door, but it can still beat most of it's rivals fair and square, be it on the drag strip or on the circuit, and at that killer price makes it a very desirable car for me.

That doesn't mean that Japanese or European cars are bad. They have their own charm and as a fact two of my all time favourite cars are the Acura NSX and the McLaren F1 GTR, which being an automotive engineer myself I consider as one the most technologically advanced in its time.

But I also like the Z06 because of the reasons mentioned. It's like a car which no one expected to beat any records, which never had a history of beating records but still manages to surprise people with its performance, even in LeMans, where it got a shocking victory against it's European rivals 2 years in a row.

[doomsday]

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

Looks like this thread received a lot of activity when I wasn't able to check it. Anyway I got a few things to say here.

Valve actuation does not really have much bearing on power output as racing has shown.

However, if you need a small engine to make the hp of a large engine, you need to force feed it, or increase the RPMs. When you increase rpms, OHC designs allow more consistent valve actuation at higher rpms (Chevy 350s run over 9000rpm in NASCAR so pushrods can move quickly)

Yeah those 350s can move quickly but with a barely streetable cam. On the other hand, most Japanese OHC engines can easily rev past 8K with good street friendliness.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

the problem with OHC designs is the increased size, noise and rotational moment of the moment.

For example, a SOHC 4.6 or 5.4 ford engine, is larger than the IH 444 block diesel. Kinda interferes with aerodynamic body designs.

Plus, take a cam for a V8, has 5 bearings to oil. The same v8, if only a SOHC has 10, if DOHC it has 20. This means increased demand on the oiling system to deliver high pressure oil to the very top of the motor - not an easy feat. (the most common failure of OHC motors is in fact damage due to top end oil starvation)

Also, OHV motors are usually chain driven for the cam, nice and reliable - chains rarely break. OHC designs use external belts, which break often if not changed often and add a lot of noise.

This would be true if you are talking about some archaic OHC engines. Nowadays, lubricating systems are so advanced that the engine will run out of breath before the oil pump can run out of its duty cycles. Same goes for the belt and the noise part doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

So they both have their advantaged and disadvantages. And if someone says that pushrods are inefficient or produce less bhp/ltr, I'd advise them to compare the weight of the LS7 with other naturally aspirated engines producing the same amount of power (505 HP). You'll notice that the LS7 despite having a larger displacement actually weighs the same or less as other OHC offerings with similar output but lower displacements.

As I have repeatedly mentioned in previous posts, the classification here is on basis of engine capacity (which is measured in cc and not kgs/lbs) and aspiration. So whatever you say, 72 bhp/ltr is not an impressive per liter output figure.

There is a root cause for the above figure. Being a pushrod, the LS7 (and other American engines) cannot implement variable valve timing, without which the 72 bhp/ltr is pretty much the maximum you can achieve from a naturally aspirated engine keeping it usable for the street.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

Also @ doomsday, if you think that the Z06 is an "all-aluminum small block with big block dimensions, carbon fiber panels and suspension which has never being used in any American cars before", you need to look a little bit further. First of all, Chevy hasn't used the big block on the Corvette for a really long time, so you really cannot compare the Z06's dimensions to them. Secondly, it uses a dry sump oil system, something which you don't find in cars in that price range.

Then we are also talking about titanium connecting rods, again something which you don't get for that price. Then the whole frame is aluminum, which is pretty neat. Also it was one of the only cars in the US to produce more than 500 HP and not be qualified for the gas guzzler tax.

Assuming that you know a lot about the Z06, you must be aware of the fact that the LS7 on the Corvette is not classified as a big block, even though it displaces 7.0 L. It is classified under the 3rd/4th generations of the General Motors Small Block engines. Yes. it does use titanium conrods, which is pretty revolutionary for an American car (the NSX used Titanium conrods in 1992 on the NSX-R JDM) and it also uses dry sump, simple reason being it allows the engine to sit lower in the frame, eliminating the need for a oil pan. And a aluminum frame, which is again something you don't see on American cars.

My question here is... Why did they take so long to make these changes make the Corvette as good as it is now? All the tech you mentioned is not some space age stuff.. Japs and Europeans have been using it since years, if not decades. And another thing... Why can't all the American cars set the same standard as the Z06 has done now after years of crappy American automobiles? In any market, there are good cars and there are bad cars. But in America, there are very few such specimens which can be compared to their global rivals. For instance, the 500 bhp 8.3 L engined Dodge Viper laps the Nurburgring in 8 minutes, given the fact all that "grunt" it has got is not enough to get an edge over many less powerful and cheaper rivals taking into consideration that the Nurburgring has a ~4 km back straight.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

Also did I mention that with all these features it was also pretty successful at beating competing 911's and Lamborghinis around the top gear test track which cost over 3 times it's price. And the fact that you can buy all this from a showroom not more than 100 miles away from your house with GM's amazing warranty and their Onstar system and not from some exclusive showroom in some big city where you are only allowed if you are invited makes it really impressive according to me.
It's like the car next door, but it can still beat most of it's rivals fair and square, be it on the drag strip or on the circuit, and at that killer price makes it a very desirable car for me.

But I also like the Z06 because of the reasons mentioned. It's like a car which no one expected to beat any records, which never had a history of beating records but still manages to surprise people with its performance, even in LeMans, where it got a shocking victory against it's European rivals 2 years in a row.

That doesn't mean that Japanese or European cars are bad. They have their own charm and as a fact two of my all time favourite cars are the Acura NSX and the McLaren F1 GTR, which being an automotive engineer myself I consider as one the most technologically advanced in its time.

I absolutely concede the fact, as I have done before, it is one American car that I would not be ashamed to buy and drive. But again, it is not easy to live with everyday due to some issues which you would be familiar with. This is very reason I like the NSX since it is as quick as the exotics on the track (of course the new one is due soon) and yet does not throw trantrums and can be used to commute to work everyday. It is one of the supercars that no one usually lusts for, unlike Ferraris or Lamborghinis, yet is able to give them a run for their money.

[sujaylahiri]

Originally Posted by doomsday

Yeah those 350s can move quickly but with a barely streetable cam. On the other hand, most Japanese OHC engines can easily rev past 8K with good street friendliness.



This would be true if you are talking about some archaic OHC engines. Nowadays, lubricating systems are so advanced that the engine will run out of breath before the oil pump can run out of its duty cycles. Same goes for the belt and the noise part doesn't make sense.



As I have repeatedly mentioned in previous posts, the classification here is on basis of engine capacity (which is measured in cc and not kgs/lbs) and aspiration. So whatever you say, 72 bhp/ltr is not an impressive per liter output figure.

There is a root cause for the above figure. Being a pushrod, the LS7 (and other American engines) cannot implement variable valve timing, without which the 72 bhp/ltr is pretty much the maximum you can achieve from a naturally aspirated engine keeping it usable for the street.

My question here is... Why did they take so long to make these changes make the Corvette as good as it is now? All the tech you mentioned is not some space age stuff.. Japs and Europeans have been using it since years, if not decades. And another thing... Why can't all the American cars set the same standard as the Z06 has done now after years of crappy American automobiles? In any market, there are good cars and there are bad cars. But in America, there are very few such specimens which can be compared to their global rivals. For instance, the 500 bhp 8.3 L engined Dodge Viper laps the Nurburgring in 8 minutes, given the fact all that "grunt" it has got is not enough to get an edge over many less powerful and cheaper rivals taking into consideration that the Nurburgring has a ~4 km back straight.

You should note that modern days pushrods do come with Variable Valve timing. The new Dodge Viper with 600 bhp has VVT and is a pushrod, GM implemented VVT on it's V6 3900 series pushrod some time back.

As far as the American cars setting standards like the Z06, I don't know why they didn't do it before and I honestly don't care. But as long as they have atleast one horse from the stable to rival the Europeans/Japanese, I'm happy. Especially with the new Corvette Blue devil coming out with a 6.2L Supercharged engine producing 750 bhp to beat the new 8.4L 600 bhp Viper.

[doomsday]

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

You should note that modern days pushrods do come with Variable Valve timing. The new Dodge Viper with 600 bhp has VVT and is a pushrod, GM implemented VVT on it's V6 3900 series pushrod some time back. .

Right.. I forgot those implementations. One tends to forget (or rather doesn't care) the fact that an engine implements VVT since the bhp/ltr outputs are still pathetic and can be best compared to a OHC engine which DOES NOT implement VVT. Honda's early sportscars (the S series, predecessor's to the S2000 i.e. S500,S600 & S800 all had power outputs north of 80 bhp/lt, with the S600 producing 95bhp/lt... and this is a DOHC engine without any VVT implementation, given the fact that these cars were in the market in the 1960's: much before VTEC was implemened in production cars) And these were no guzzlers as well.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

As far as the American cars setting standards like the Z06, I don't know why they didn't do it before and I honestly don't care. But as long as they have atleast one horse from the stable to rival the Europeans/Japanese, I'm happy. Especially with the new Corvette Blue devil coming out with a 6.2L Supercharged engine producing 750 bhp to beat the new 8.4L 600 bhp Viper.

Rightly said now for the American automobile enthusiastic there is atleast one car they can be proud of and being capable to rival the Japs and Europeans. But the fact is that American Automobile Industry has a lot of catching up to do if they want to get anywhere close to their Jap and European counterparts and manufacture cars with good overall engineering, rather than just brute power from a tank engine, which will enable them to compete with their global counterparts in all segments. When one generalises Automobile Manufacturing country-wise, one good example amongst other pieces of junk produced in that country, will not be enough to tilt the balance in its favor in comparsion to others where crappy cars are far and between.

[sujaylahiri]

Originally Posted by doomsday

Right.. I forgot those implementations. One tends to forget (or rather doesn't care) the fact that an engine implements VVT since the bhp/ltr outputs are still pathetic and can be best compared to a OHC engine which DOES NOT implement VVT. Honda's early sportscars (the S series, predecessor's to the S2000 i.e. S500,S600 & S800 all had power outputs north of 80 bhp/lt, with the S600 producing 95bhp/lt... and this is a DOHC engine without any VVT implementation, given the fact that these cars were in the market in the 1960's: much before VTEC was implemened in production cars) And these were no guzzlers as well.

I can understand that those Hondas back in the days produced 80-95 bhp/ltr. But how many of them made 500HP? What I'm trying to say is that it's easy to make puny 800cc engines with those kind of power outputs, but when you are talking about the big boys in the range of 500+ bhp and V8's and V10's, it becomes really difficult and expensive to achieve such specific power outputs.

I'm not saying that it's not possible, I mean most of the Ferrari engines manage to achieve that, but they also cost 3-4 times as much as American sportscars. That's the price you pay for such technology. This is because when the displacements grow bigger and the no. of pistons increase, then you are working with higher NVH levels as well as higher temperatures. Then even companies like Honda find it difficult to achieve such outputs in these situations.
This is the reason why they do not produce anything yet above 400-500 bhp and also rely heavily on forced induction to achieve higher power outputs.
But many purists believe that adding a turbo or a supercharger takes away the fun from racing as the power delivery is not predictable and precise (turbo lag etc.) and hence they prefer naturally aspirated engines. But then different people have different opinions.

[doomsday]

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

I can understand that those Hondas back in the days produced 80-95 bhp/ltr. But how many of them made 500HP? What I'm trying to say is that it's easy to make puny 800cc engines with those kind of power outputs, but when you are talking about the big boys in the range of 500+ bhp and V8's and V10's, it becomes really difficult and expensive to achieve such specific power outputs. Even companies like Honda find it difficult to achieve such outputs in these situations.

Very true none of the Hondas or for that matter any other Japanese cars have made 500 bhp in the past. Reason: A gentleman's agreement which limited the adverstised peak power to 280 bhp. Don't you think that it is strange that the Mitsubishi Evo IV introduced in 1996 and the Evo IX and even the X produce the same amount of power i.e. 280 bhp in the JDM version. The reason behind this is the agreement among the Japanese manufacturers to curb the horsepower race. Something on the lines of Japanese superbikes being limited to 299 kph limit, although electronically in this case.

Although the new Skyline with 480 bhp advertised is the sign of better things to come and the new NSX due in 2008 will be mostly using a 4.5 L V10 with 550 bhp Naturally Aspirated. So now we can expect 500 bhp stuff to come out from Japanese factories. (Not that they needed loads of power to beat the opposition)

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

I'm not saying that it's not possible, I mean most of the Ferrari engines manage to achieve that, but they also cost 3-4 times as much as American sportscars. That's the price you pay for such technology. This is because when the displacements grow bigger and the no. of pistons increase, then you are working with higher NVH levels as well as higher temperatures.

This is the reason why they do not produce anything yet above 400-500 bhp and also rely heavily on forced induction to achieve higher power outputs.

The price one pays for a Ferrari or a Lamborghni is not just the price for the technology. One pays for the snob value of those brands. That alone will make up a major chunk of the price plus the economies of scale are not really plus points for these exotics as they are built to order. Hence, one ends up paying a lot more than what a regular production line assembled car with the same technological specs would cost.

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

But many purists believe that adding a turbo or a supercharger takes away the fun from racing as the power delivery is not predictable and precise (turbo lag etc.) and hence they prefer naturally aspirated engines. But then different people have different opinions.

Yup...For turbocharged motors, this is turbo lag, heat soak (inconsistent power), and springy throttle response. Supercharged motors generally are noisy, coarse, and have a heavy flywheel feel (because while the motor is generating a lot more power, it's also fighting a lot of drag from the supercharger itself)

These are the precise reasons why I like a NA motor anyday when compared to FI ones for everyday or track use. Obviously, to each his own.