[Rahulk76]

I am really wondering why is 4x4 not being even offered as an option in LX version ?

Is it so that the demand is so low that Tata doesn't think its worthwhile to offer it even in made to order avatar ?

Perhaps in competition as a viable 4x4 only Mahindra Scorpio LX 4x4 is available at the same price point aka ex-showroom <10 L.

VX 4x4 OTR Pune is 17L which personally is outrageously expensive given thats TATA (pun intended)

Sigh Sigh ... Only if Tata was remotely listening in =)

[theMAG]

Originally Posted by kartikk

Just a quick one, do you feel after driving the Storme an auto would do better justice ? I ask since there are posts of a Storme-auto with higher power delivery etc... doing the rounds.

Well, not sure if an auto might be in offing, since the Tata Motors officials feigned ignorance when this specific question was asked. But yes, having an auto should definitely help. However, expect a steep drop in mileage since the box would need to keep the engine (assuming its current state of tune), constantly in the power band.

Originally Posted by Rahulk76

I am really wondering why is 4x4 not being even offered as an option in LX version ?

According to the Tata Motors officials present, "due to business decision and giving more creature comforts instead".

[Rahulk76]

Originally Posted by theMAG

According to the Tata Motors officials present, "due to business decision and giving more creature comforts instead" .

Ok i understand business decision BUT i dont get "giving more creature comforts instead" What has 4x4 to do with that . Its a simple rotary dial on the console and a some mechanical beneath without harming the present creature comforts. I assume that it may have to do more with the quality of the materials and engineering of 4x4 system itself.
I am sure with niggles out ( as perceived from Storme Platform) they would be able to sell couple of thousands 4x4 in a year on made to order basis.

Anyways, Tata's got to do what they've got to do.

[mjothi]

Originally Posted by Rahulk76

Ok i understand business decision BUT i dont get "giving more creature comforts instead"What has 4x4 to do with that . Its a simple rotary dial on the console and a some mechanical beneath without harming the present creature comforts. I assume that it may have to do more with the quality of the materials and engineering of 4x4 system itself.
I am sure with niggles out ( as perceived from Storme Platform) they would be able to sell couple of thousands 4x4 in a year on made to order basis.

Anyways, Tata's got to do what they've got to do.

Its because providing the simple rotary switch and transmission, comes with a cost. So, instead of providing this for the additional money, they decided to provide the comforts.

There was also a point made by someone that there could be an option included later - but not confirmed by the TATA motor persons in venue.

So, its not about technical ability, but about the price point too.

[aaggoswami]

Recently had crossed a Storme on road, in night. I have to admit it looks very nice at night with that bonnet design and lights. Certainly looks attractive and butch at the same time. Had a road presence that only bigger SUV like Fortuner and above segment SUV can match. Bigger presence than the hatchback platformed Duster, much bigger and better. It looked almost like an alien car on road and suddenly you realise that its mighty Safari which also happens to be one of the first real Indian SUV.

I have to admit this : Safari Storme has grown on me.......My all time favorite remains LC100 and current LC200 ( the newer patrol is way to big for offrroading and Ranger Rover never appealed to me as LC did, dont know why ). Its a different thing that I might not be able to affrod LC in this life in our country, but after Fortuner, this ( i.e. safari storme ) is one real SUV I have liked. Very nice effort Tata.

Tata must capitalize on a few things like :
Satisfying users like TSK1979, giving better quality and service. Cutting a lakh or so rupees from price wont hurt them too much. Also get front facing last row of seats.

[drive_factor]

Originally Posted by methecupid

Thanks Tanveer for an incredible write up. Am sure many of us have waited with baited breath to see if the Tata s arrived.

However, just hate to see the manufacturers in India giving bits and pieces of really good stuff but never the entire jigsaw puzzle. So my two cents on the effervescent and soon unfolding pseudo/perceived SUV segment.

1. The Storme obviously has a legacy. Period. The design cannot offend anyone, was actually the reason why it has been loved and reverred for 12 years now. Could they have given it new clothes? Sure. We do not fit into our decade old jeans, why should a car! The interiors are magical. Without being strikingly out of the world, it sure looks built to last. The soft touch plastics and leather are things that no other SUV in its segment boasts of. But if you drive around corners at more than 120kms, this doesn't seem to tend to your needs. So what does one do?

2. What one does is look at the Renault Duster. Its monocoque attributes serve it well for the inspired. Yes, it may seem underpowered with a 85ps 1.5lt engine, but it also weighs almost half of the Herculean Tata. For nothing has this been named the TB COTY...! The duster has evolved a niche, no frills, no nonsense, affordable pseudo SUV market in India all by itself. Wait a second. Did I just say no frills? So I will be paying close to 14 lakhs for no frills and just a high seating car which can't even off road?

3. No frills is adequately answered by XUV 5OO. This was and still is the talk of the town. The Mahindras are making the UV segment its trademark and how. The XUV has all going for itself - its designed futuristic. The interiors 'look' plush and I personally love the plum option. The engine pulls away effortlessly and the console with its waterfall design is straight out of cars of segments above. The steering and seating gives you total control of the beast and slot the gears, and this baby can chug along merry for miles. Oh, I spoke about slotting the gear, right? Only if you could manage the second gear without much trouble. It is embarassing not to be able to slot into second in a crowded intersection in Mumbai. Not to mention the 78bhp/tonne equation puts it lower than the seemingly underpowered Duster.

So what does one have to do to get the best one needs? Wait for the Ford EcoSport. Wait, that is not even an SUV. Drats.

Very succinctly put and perfectly describes the dilemma of a Scorpio owner like me who is looking for a replacement for my trusted 2005 CRDE model. I've TD many makes/models and somehow none quite adequately tick the right boxes as the Scorpio does.

But suddenly the Storme is looking like a viable option. The traditional architecture suits my type of usage. And it actually looks pretty awesome in person with tremendous street presence despite that horrendous chrome strip.

However I am not yet pulling the trigger till I get to see the all new Scorpio reputed to be around deepawali. I just hope it retains sufficient genes of the 1st generation Scorpio without going too far down the XUV way. Till then lets hope Tata is done with its usual niggles fixing

[sachinayak]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

I feel the value of a vehicle is something personal.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

For a 2WD buyer, objectively there is nothing in the storme. There are other options in the market which are more reliable and offer similar performance and better reliability, often with more features.

Your above statements honestly bring up a vaccum (of objective evaluation of cars) in the current online car-review spectrum. Team-BHP has is an amazing resource of knowledge and experience. While I fully respect Team-BHP's approach of providing pros and cons of any vehicle in their official reviews (and not provide outright recommendations since each user's requirement is unique), what I see missing (and have seen multiple people request) is a common scale/benchmark to compare options in the market. When you mention that a 2WD buyer, has better options, my mind immediately starts thinking - what, how, where?

I have made this request earlier as well, and will probably try one last time.

Can we have an "objective" evaluation of vehicles in the official reviews. We can include multiple parameters such as Performance, Ride, Handling, Passenger Comfort, Features, Fuel Efficiency, Fit and Finish (exterior), Fit and Finish (interior), Safety, City Driveability, Highway Cruising Capability, Brakes, Reliability (or perceived reliability), Service Network, Service Reputation, Resale Value (or perceived resale value), Ageing of the vehicle, Warranty offered etc across vehicles within a price range? There could be a scoring (0-10) on each parameter. Keeping a price-range is important coz there is no point of comparing a 17L vehicle with a 27L vehicle and then criticizing the former.

Any user can use this, determine what parameters are critical and what are not (e.g. for someone looking for a vehicle that will be driven in the city, the parameter "highway cruising capability" will bear no significance). Any user can then put weights against each parameter and thus determine "easily" and "objectively" which option would be the best for him/her.

Easier said than done, since there are certain elements which are extremely subjective e.g. Looks, Presence etc., but the above should help immensely.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

For a 2WD buyer, objectively there is nothing in the storme. There are other options in the market which are more reliable and offer similar performance and better reliability, often with more features.

Again, if i look at this statement and look at SUVs (and not MUVs) in two price range 9.5-10L and 10.75-11.5L range, we have few options. Are there any clear winners? Debatable.


Bracket 1 (9.5-10L)
--------------------------------------
Mahindra Scorpio SLE 9.55L
Renault Duster RxL 110 9.99L
Tata Safari Storme LX 9.95L


Bracket 2 (10.75-11.5L)
--------------------------------------
Mahindra Scorpio VLX 10.80L
Tata Safari Storme LX 10.82L
Renault Duster 1.5 RxZ 10.99L
Force One 2.2 11.19L
Mahindra XUV500 W6 11.58L

[suhaas307]

So I had the opportunity to check out and drive the Storme today. My views (a sedan /hatch owner's stand-point):

Styling & Appearance: I know it's purely subjective but I think they've got it wrong. It is a reasonably handsome car but you can see that it is dated now. If this is Tata's aim at retaining the 'DNA' - as they'd categorically expressed - and taking the 'evolutionary' route while creating a new generation Safari of sorts, it's not my cup of tea. It just looks like a facelift. It is certainly not a bad facelift. But they could have done much more and still retain the DNA IMO. I do like some bits like the new tail-lights and the headlights aren't bad either. The 'power-bulge' on the bonnet looks great. the car does look much better in person than in photographs. But I must say Tanveer has done a remarkable job in capturing the car.

Build-Quality & Overall Fit / Finish: Excellent for a Tata but still average (or perhaps slightly above) when compared to other cars. There were some bits in the interior that had rough-edges like the edges of door-pockets. The plastic panel on the passenger-side A-Pillar seemed like it was coming off. Some plastics seemed like they were of the 'soft-touch' variety while others seemed hard. I liked using the wiper / indicator stalks, they were damped and did not make that characteristic clicking-noise I've noticed in some cars. Other switches and knobs felt like they would go the distance if they aren't subjected to frequent and heavy abuse. The storage lid above the AC vents creaked like there was no tomorrow whenever I'd opened it. Exterior build quality is good. The doors were very heavy and felt solid, but didn't shut with that reassuring 'thud' that I was looking for. It still felt solid though. I'd have liked some better attention to detail in the exhaust-pipes. It looked like a WIP. I could see daylight between the pipe and the chrome-tip. While driving, I did notice vibrations, road noise and the faint sound of an air-leak despite the windows rolled-up completely. That said, it is a pretty quiet cabin even at 100.

Accommodation & Ergonomics: One of those few cars I've been in where I could stretch my legs, both in the front and back seat! The room available is fantastic. The front seats lacked support and the seat-bottom was quite short and as a result, I found the back of my knees a fair distance from the edge of the seat.. But the rear bench was really hard to fault. It was plush, comfortable, supportive and easily accommodated 3 people. Visibility all-round is excellent. I was constantly reminded of being seated in a B7R Volvo! Massive windows and a huge glass-house gives it a sense of airiness while the barrage of beige cements that feeling. Ergonomics are good by SUV standards. I wasn't comfortable in the driver's seat initially and found that slotting the gear-lever into first required a bit of a stretch. But the arm-rest did help and after a few minutes, I was reasonably comfortable. You get the sense that it is a large and heavy car when you're in the driver's seat. If you are going to replace your sedan with this, be prepared to get used to the quirky ergonomics. For existing SUV (Safari, Scorpio, etc) owners, it is pretty good. The jump-seats at the back need to go! Or they should, at the least, give customers the option of choosing either jump-seats or a proper 3rd row.

Engine & Gearbox: They say it makes 140PS @ 4k revs and 320NM of peak-torque @ 1.7k rpms. But I find that seriously hard to believe. Maybe it was the particular car I drove, I don't know. But the process of feeding a good dose of throttle-input resulted only in lots of lag and any semblance of action could only be felt post 2k RPM. And the torque tapered away once the revs climb beyond 3k RPM. The engine felt weak because of that narrow power / torque-band. It isn't easy to drive this car in crawling traffic but it feels at home while cruising on an open road. Keep the engine spinning in its meat and you will munch the miles effortlessly. The gearbox is quite notchy and rubbery. There was significant clutch travel and it lacked feel but it was light and the bite wasn't nasty either.

Ride & Handling + Braking: Low speed ride is very good. It's supple, soaks up the bumps nicely and only on two occasions did the suspension transfer the jolts into the cabin. One particular stretch of road we drove on was rather unforgiving, I must say. High-speed ride is decent. I found it good in the driver's / passenger's seat, and while in the back-seat, I found it quite bumpy and the other occupants would concur. I did not get to properly understand the handling characteristics of the car and honestly, I'd rather not. The size and weight is apparent and it feels daunting. Undulations on the road do throw the car off while doing reasonable speeds. It does not feel very composed or stable. It's OK. I'm told it's much worse in the Scorpio. Benny will testify The steering was light but strangely, it seemed like it needed an adjustment. It was perpetually pointed between the 12 and 1'o clock position while going straight. Although it was reasonably accurate, it felt slightly vague on-center. There was quite a lot of play in the steering and you could turn it a few degrees to the right and to the left with little-to-no change in direction. Braking is good but nose-dive and tail-lift under moderately hard braking may be noticed. The car does not lose its line though and that's reassuring. I found vagueness in the pedals too. Very little feedback from the brake-pedal and the clutch.

Features & Equipment: A single-din head-unit? Really, Tata? The air-conditioner is pretty good and cooled the cabin on a surprisingly hot day (by Bangalore standards). The leather was of nice quality. I did not dwell into details though. Thankfully, it isn't loaded with software and gizmos like the XUV.

Price & VFM: It isn't bad, while it starts at a little over 9 lakhs (ex-showroom) it goes up to 13+ for the top-end variant. It is more expensive than the Duster, but it offers SO much more room AND the option of additional seats, should they be required. Plus, you pay for all that extra metal too. When you compare it to the XUV, it's hard to say which one I'd pick. The XUV is good and so is the Storme. But both cars could have been better IMO. The little niggles do persist and that's enough to put off prospective customers, especially those who are looking to spend 16 lakhs OTR for a car. That said, it does make the Fortuner look ridiculously expensive and overpriced.

Bottom-Line: If I were in the market for a SUV, umm I wouldn't buy one. I'd spend that 17 odd lakhs on a Duster 110 RxL(o) and kit it with some leather and good ICE instead. But that's just me. I'm not entirely comfortable driving a very large SUV, especially if it doesn't give you that car-like feel. (maybe I'm not the right person to review a SUV *blush*) But for someone in the market for a SUV, it is a very good option and definitely worth considering.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

So I had the opportunity to check out and drive the Storme today. My views (a sedan /hatch owner's stand-point):....

Bottom-Line: If I were in the market for a SUV, umm I wouldn't buy one. I'd spend that 17 odd lakhs on a Duster 110 RxL(o) and kit it with some leather and good ICE instead. But that's just me. I'm not entirely comfortable driving a very large SUV, especially if it doesn't give you that car-like feel. (maybe I'm not the right person to review a SUV *blush*) But for someone in the market for a SUV, it is a very good option and definitely worth considering.

Thanks Suhaas. The more reviews pour in, disappointment is getting higher. Probably TATA has done an excellent job, but the competition has moved on hence these updates just don't make a cut in today's market. Now this makes me wonder whether TATA was selling a really outdated vehicle in the name of Safari so far!

Between, where did you take the TD? Have they officially started offering TDs? Would like to try this once, may be with Safari & Storme, back to back.

[mjothi]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Between, where did you take the TD? Have they officially started offering TDs? Would like to try this once, may be with Safari & Storme, back to back.

off launch will be on 9th Jan in Bangalore. we had a pre launch in Bangalore yesterday and some of us were lucky to attend. TD of both vehicle was available to compare side by side.

[unni.ak]

Thanks to Lukeskywalker, Prerana Motors and TML, I was among the group who got to drive the Storme yesterday, at Bangalore . As a sedan owner, and an aspiring SUV owner (don’t most of us want one!), the Storme pleasantly surprised me. I’ve not driven the XUV or the Duster or any of the other “superb” SUVs that are available in that price range. In the SUV space, I’ve had the opportunity to drive a Scorpio (in-laws had one, and benbsb29's Scorpio) for a few hundred kilometers, an Aria (for about 1100kms), and a Safari (but mostly as passenger). The drive I had of the Storme was for about 8-10km, on a 4lane highway, and some broken roads. This doesn’t, by even a long shot, make me an expert commentator. So, take my opinion with a pinch of salt!!

I have always preferred the looks of the Safari over the Storme. Yesterday morning too, when I saw the Storme and the many Safaris that were there, I was rooted on my opinion. But, as the day wore on, the Storme’s looks grew on me, especially the Urban Bronze (yep, the Duster too has a similar shade). Just like how weird the Zen looked when launched about 17years back. The drive I had in the Storme made me love the vehicle that it is. The engine was much more free revving than the Safari unit (very similar to the way mHawk or Aria engine revs up), the clutch was soft (almost as soft as on a sedan), turbo lag had been cut down, gear shifts were smoother (gear lever no longer hits the console in 2nd, and 4th, which I think used to be problem in the Safari, owners can confirm), and the ride quality has improved by much. Rough roads and undulations were handled well. The vehicle felt stable during lane changes, steering inputs were responsive, braking did not pose a problem (there was a weird brake noise though) and the vehicle felt in control, as much as one can expect from a 2.5tonne SUV. I own a Fiesta, and here I’m not going to compare the dynamics of that to the Safari/Storme. That would a little unfair, after all!

Wind noise does manage to creep in, but it’s not too loud or interfering. Maybe with music on, one wouldn’t even notice. The interior quality is a step up from the Safari and the Scorpio, and I was hard pressed to find some fault in plastic quality. Switch gear quality, be it the AC control knobs or the steering column ones, all are so much better now. The greenhouse is airy, and the driving position lets you see the front extremities clearly. The rubber beadings and their finish could have been better though. Many a places you can see the sealant gum that was used, and the edges stick out awkwardly. Paint quality and finish is excellent. There are some rough edges (like under the steering column and the dash, not sure why I or anyone would be bothered with that, still!!), but it looks like it’s built to last.

It is a little disappointing that they don’t offer 4x4 on more variants though. And pricing, well it’s up for debate, and just like the looks of the vehicle, it will depend on individuals. Don’t I wish they would offer all this at a much lower price point!! Maybe I’m not too much of a critic, but I really couldn’t find many faults with the vehicle.

The Storme is not a new vehicle, it’s an evolution. Like the brochure says, it is The Beast Refined, a Safari refined. Could more have been done? Yes! More features could have been added, creature comfort stuff added etc. But how much are we willing to pay for all of that.

As luck would have it, I was accompanying lohithrao (who owns a Safari) on the drive, and he was kind enough to explain the differences. Thanks Lohith, it was a pleasure.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by sachinayak

. When you mention that a 2WD buyer, has better options, my mind immediately starts thinking - what, how, where?

Speaking of objective evaulations, you do not need the reviewer to make a recommendation.
Let us say
I make a recommendation, X is better than Y because X gives 15kmpl and Y givles 14kmpl.
Somebody may say 1kmpl is not enough to warrant a recommendation

Or X goes faster than Y and Y handles better?
Again, can reviewer say Y is better, or X is better.

So as reviewers we just state the facts, and where opinions are there we mention opinion. For example.

I did not like the new style rear end - This is my opinion. Some agree and some disagree
Parts fell of while braking - This is a fact. Now person X may consider rear seat falling down such a small thing which may not even warrant a mention. For person Y it may be a big deal. So how can a reviewer make a recommendation in the offical review

Another example, take the drivers seat. For first 20kms it was not very good, but once we did 300kms we realized there is no dearth of comfort and it does not cause fatitgue. But for many this new seat is horrendous.

Speaking objectively I believe once you take out all emotion out of the equation you can evaluate vehicles on

1. Fuel efficiecity - ARAI figures will do here
2. Handling and braking - Review covers everything
3. Performance - Again power to weight ratio numbers and review covers this
4. Features - Brochures of all vehicles are freely available
5. Reliability - Past performance is an indicator. No company changes overnight
6. Niggles and quirks - Reviews cover that.

That said, personally I consider safari like the Enfield bullet. So sometimes you cannot compare it to other vehicles. For example, can a Bullet 350/500 owner give a single objective reason above modern 250cc bikes?

But can that owner ever dream of riding a "moped"?

A vehicle also is a very emotional buy. Many people often buy a totally impractical vehicle and then augment with that a cheap boring hatch.
Look at the jeepers, esp in dusty and hot north India.

So what next can never come from a review. A review can only tell you what the vehicle is. It cannot take into consideration the emotional bond with a brand or vehicle. Infact that often becomes the source of flame wars and fights on the forum because you cannot objectify love with logic

[yogeshnaik]

Tata Safari STORME launch at Bangalore:

As Tata Safari STORME has been launched in other states of India, the launch at Tata Motors (Concorde Motors) Bangalore is on 7th January, 2013. This is the information shared by the Sales team. I had visited Tata Motors, Mysore Road, Bangalore for a test drive of previous version of Safari and asked for details of Safari STORME as well. Luckily, the Sales Executive took me for a view of Safari STORME which was yet to launch. I am sharing some of the pictures of Safari STORME and launch information to all our BHP folks who are diehard fans of Tata Safari.

As per my view, I like Safari, which satisfies all the factors of a TRUE SUV. It has all that a SUV has satisfying all the features and parameters of a SUV.
Being a user/customer of Tata vehicle, I was one among the part of feedback process. I was invited for a discussion which lasted for over 1 hour 30 minutes with Tata Engineers who were from Pune along with Regional Officers who sit at Bangalore. The new Tata Safari STORME has enormous changes, first it is based on ARIA platform. TATA have taken care of almost all the issues that were present in previous versions of Safari which were noted by the Tata Engineers during the feedback sessions. Interiors are well designed and the plastic quality is good.

There is a saying that Royal Enfield Bullet is "Built like a gun". If you need a Royal Enfield Bullet, you have to take care of it. Similar phrase applies to Tata Safari as well, it is a BEAST, if you need it you have to tame the BEAST!

Below are the pictures of Tata Safari STORME, view profiles taken in clockwise way.

[dkamath]

Here are a few brain-"storme"ing inputs from me, after getting an opportunity to touch, feel and drive the vehicle:
The Storme is well put up together, and I could visibly identify a few areas which have been improved, compared with the current Safari, like for instance:
* the rubber beadings provided between the front door and the fender possibly to absorb the wind noise,
* rubber stoppers on the corners of the doors and the body, again to absorb the "thud"s during door closure,
* thin rubber beadings along the claddings, where the claddings meet the metal body, perhaps to prevent water seepage during course of time),
* suspension, handling and stalk controls similar to that of the Aria.

Finally, the only suggestion I would like to make to anybody that is considering the option of buying an SUV is to kindly not write off the Storme only because it resembles the current Safari. The similarity ends there, with the engineers present at the preview session pointing out that a majority of the components are totally different in the Storme, like for example the suspension bushes which will now last much longer compared to the current Safari, or even the front suspension setup that doesn't need camber adjustments.

Even if Tata Motors were to make it look different, wondering if they could still retain the excellent visibility and un-claustrophobic feel of the current Safari, only for that "change" factor. The design has been timeless ever since it was on road. The rain-water gutters on the roof, which the nearest competitor still carries, were not present since the first model too. Let me apply my brakes here

[humyum]

Today got a chance to test drive the Safari Storme at Concorde Motors, Prabhadevi. Let me give you a perspective from a Swift Diesel owner point of view.

Firstly, I have never ever driven an SUV EVER in my life except reversing the Scorpio to take it out of parking for 50 meters.

It was the top of the line Safari Storme which I test drive.

Getting inside the car, I was instantly at ease in the driving sea. It gave a theatre type of top view which was EXCELELNT as I was expecting myself to find the beast too big for me to drive as it was my first time and my all day long vehicle is a swift diesel.

I am sensitive to clutch hardness and WAS I in for a surprise or WHAT. The clutch was as light as my Swift Diesel's. KUDOS TATA, Such a huge beast having such a light clutch is a WOW. City driving will be a cake walk.

Now when we got started, Reverse gear --> Kind of difficult to slot, took some neutral reverse moments to get it in place. Maybe its a new car thing since the test drive vehicle had only run 950 km.

First gear, we got started and my first question to the sales guy

"Is the storme really this loud and crude, or is it this vehicle ?

He said "Oh sir, maybe you drive a swift diesel hence you find this loud and crude'

Ah well could be.

Now the drive began and the torque was phenomenal from almost 1400 rpm till 3+, it pulled well. Loved it.

Gearshifting was hard, Not notchy, but hard, Gear shifting in traffic could pain my shoulder if I had to do it day to day.

Handling was car like, Steering was just perfect in its weight.

Braking was excellent, very confidence inspiring

Over the ruts in the road, the steering did give some 'play' kind of moment, maybe its a safari thing, I have no idea.

In short, would I buy the Storme after driving the Swift diesel for 4 years +

HELL YEAH.