[DicKy]

Originally Posted by irdevanand

Thanks. I am just helping a colleague so the requirements are fixed. He will use it for highway drives only. For city he has his wagonR. If we dont generalize and dont deviate from this one-customer-one-requirement we can easily zero in on the variant.

If it just highway usage and the colleague is a sedate driver, then fine.

But the petrol:hybrid cost analysis and TCO analysis reminds me of the petrol: diesel cost analysis that used to be done in the forum. Fine, if you have a steady income, is financially prudent and do planned trips and helps to be a sedate driver. But it helped that diesel was not as sensitive to driving style, gave more FE in any conditions and in situations where you might not have much cash in hand, you would be thankful at the pump where TCO analysis might not help.

Same wise, if it is just planned weekly trips on open roads where one can cruise sedately, then the petrol may give 15+ km/l, otherwise in typical Indian conditions a 2l petrol engine in a 7 seater may struggle to give anything above 10km/l. Also with a lead foot, CVT may negatively affect the FE. The hybrid will thrive in Indian conditions regards to fuel economy while giving average (not poor) fuel economy on the open highways. About the 2.7l Innova Crysta mileage, it is an old school engine with an old school gearbox. Official fuel economy will be low, but you will get what you see. Unlike modern cars that will do pretty great in official tests ( especially CVT ) , but in the real life struggle to give anything near.

Though I agree that Toyota should have priced the hybrid at most 2-2.5 lakh difference and launched a G and GX hybrid to bring the prices down.

Originally Posted by PragRunner

There is some claim about body roll in this video ? Does this seem reasonable / possible?

The way he kept on moving the steering wheel at motion, I guess any mainstream car would have 'body roll'.

[poloman]

I am surprised to see people expecting 16KMPL mileage in a NA petrol 7 seater. Toyota has done nothing to improve mileage in Hycross petrol only variants at least to public knowledge.

The only time you get good mileage in a NA petrol car is on long drives with extremely light foot.
My 1.2 MT Polo mileage is a pathetic 8Kmpl in Bangalore traffic. But improves to 16-17Kmpl on good highways.
My 2022 ZX AT Crysta gives back around 10-11Kmpl in Bangalore traffic and around 15Kmpl on highways under same conditions. So both are providing more or less same mileage despite Innova being 2 times heavier.
At current fuel prices, Crysta is more economic that way.

If some one is used to quick accelerations and triple digit speeds don't even think about petrol engine for heavy 7 seaters. This will drain your pocket real quick.

[r24x7]

I have posted my views on the TCO comparison already few pages ago.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post5465420 (Toyota Innova Hycross Review)


After reading all the views expressed later on , here's what I could summarise.
Go for the GX only if you feel aligned with all 3 reasons listed below.
1. The hycross is going to be your second vehicle for highway duties only.
2. Your aggregate run over 8 years is going to be less than one lakh kilometres
3. If you feel VX is too much to spend on/ afford.

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by GTO

The market for diesels in big UVs will continue for a long time to come. The only alternative is hybrid. You have to have either, and I give a pat on the back to Toyota for betting on hybrids. I love hybrids! Although, it's only their city FE which is good....highway FE is ordinary.

Exactly! But can you please elaborate the meaning of ‘Ordinary’ here? Is the FE comparable to a similar Diesel engine or lesser/more than that? Since from what I assume the battery won't be able to give much power at cruising speeds of 90-100 Kmph in SHEVs as it will have to be constantly recharged and engine will be on for the most part. So won't it be just like a normal petrol car with occasional time frames when the engine would be off/delivering less power at low RPM due to compensation from the battery?

[CA Dhruv]

Originally Posted by poloman

My 2022 ZX AT Crysta gives back around 10-11Kmpl in Bangalore traffic and around 15Kmpl on highways under same conditions. So both are providing more or less same mileage despite Innova being 2 times heavier.
At current fuel prices, Crysta is more economic that way.

If some one is used to quick accelerations and triple digit speeds don't even think about petrol engine for heavy 7 seaters. This will drain your pocket real quick.

I agree with your point here regarding petrol only version but if the hybrid gives something between 17-19 kmpl, i guess it would still be better than crysta diesel in terms of FE.

As in the video shared 2-3 posts above,regarding body roll, they had done a tank to tank test , although only for 100 kms, in which they got around 18 kmpl. Fingers crossed for it achieving the same in real world highway runs too.

Originally Posted by r24x7

After reading all the views expressed later on , here's what I could summarise.
Go for the GX only if you feel aligned with all 3 reasons listed below.
1. The hycross is going to be your second vehicle for highway duties only.
2. Your aggregate run over 8 years is going to be less than one lakh kilometres
3. If you feel VX is too much to spend on/ afford.

Resale value at the end of ownership period should also be considered. Say if the mileage in real world is 10-12 (petrol) & 17-19 (Hybrid), then I guess there would be a premium on resale too of about Rs. 2-3 lac minimum as VX would be a feature rich 8 seater

[androdev]

Originally Posted by Dr.Car

Exactly! But can you please elaborate the meaning of ‘Ordinary’ here? Is the FE comparable to a similar Diesel engine or lesser/more than that? Since from what I assume the battery won't be able to give much power at cruising speeds of 90-100 Kmph in SHEVs as it will have to be constantly recharged and engine will be on for the most part. So won't it be just like a normal petrol car with occasional time frames when the engine would be off/delivering less power at low RPM due to compensation from the battery?

There is a good discussion on this topic in Camry thread, here is an example, but there are more posts on that thread. Bottom line: if you are a gentle driver and allow Hybrid to do its magic, you can expect good mileage on highway also. However if you are an aggressive driver who prefers rapid acceleration - highway FE will be ordinary. Diesel FE is hard to beat on highways. Our BMW 520d gives 19-20kmpl on highways when driven in a fairly spirited manner. Camry hybrid (2015 model) offers around 15kmpl but I could achieve 19-20kmpl with a lot of restrained driving.

For city driving, hybrid is the king! Not just FE but it’s so damn smooth and effortless to drive and offers very comfortable journey. Diesel OTH feels very crude. No comparison if city driving is the primary purpose.

Originally Posted by amalji

Expect similar mileage for the Camry both in City and Highway drives. While the optimization is great for City drives, it does help ( though not as much in a city drive ) efficiency even in Highway drives. This is how it does it.

• Even though it has a mammoth 2.5 l petrol engine, it runs in a very efficient Atkinson cycle ( vis-a-vis the Otto cycle in a typical non hybrid petrol engine ). This improves the efficiency by around 10 percent.
• The air conditioning is constantly powered by the lithium ion battery and doesn't steal from the engine power. Again, another 5 to 10 percent improvement in efficiency ( assuming that the battery has enough charge )
• In quick acceleration scenario even at high speeds, the electric motor switches on and supports the petrol engine which saves on the efficiency of the petrol engine.

Other than the direct benefits mentioned above, another thing we have to remember is that it's these high way drives that actually makes the city drives so efficient by harvesting the power and storing it in the lithium ion / NiMH batteries.

If inspite of all of this, if we still feel that the battery is full and we need to use some of it forcefully, just switch to ev mode and drive for half a kilometer. It's going to take the battery charge down to 60 - 70 percent.

[TorqueyTechie]

Am planning to check the Hycross today. Any idea which showroom in south Bangalore is the vehicle on display?

[Carevidence]

[QUOTE=
That would only happen if the car was going on a decline or going downhill, but even then at that speed the engine wont be off and it would still be spinning even if without petrol. Toyota Hybrid is fascinating in how it works.
==
Question - how good are hybrid cars and in this case the Hycross for mountain driving especially with a near full load?I'm not looking at fuel efficiency but apart from the torque are there any other areas where a hybrid is inadequate in the mountains?Even normal ICE vehicles suffer some power reduction at higher altitudes.And diesels are soon going to be a story grandparents will be relating.

From what I can ascertain,hybrids are best for stop start driving and even not so great on the highway.I've driven one for a few few days in the plains and highway fuel efficiency was similar to an equivalent petrol vehicle.
So if one were not to use the Hycross as a people mover but like a normal car especially for mountain driving is it a justified choice or are we left with no alternatives?
Some downsides for mountain driving I see are the extra weight of the batteries and the sheer size of the Hycross which is not related to the hybrid part but more to the local mountain road infrastructure.

[shipnil]

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

To afford the top end one must be earning more than ₹4 lakh a month.

Originally Posted by ashis89

And some others who earn a third of a crore but still got X1 or a Civic. Priorities differ from person/family to person/family.

Both of you seem kind of agreeing on minimum income required to afford the Hycross. 4L p.m. and third of crore (assuming per annum) are not too far off and are substantial amounts.

[Gautam_707]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Offtopic.
Can't compare the Pajero with the other run of the mill monocoque/ unibody vehicles. Pajero is the definition of a Sports Utility Vehicle and unlike its compatriots from Toyota and Nissan see less of commercial usage and more of sports usage.

Also, the Pajero and models like the old Grand Vitara, while unibody/ monocoque have an integrated ladder chassis design in their unibody. This results in far more rigidity and durability than other run of the mill monocoques. Not to say they get the fundamentals right. Right from the longitundinal engine mounted rear wheel drive layout to the suspension system. Can't say the same for the other monocoques.

I am a noob regarding off-roading, but I believe while dune bashing does put stress on vehicles, it has more to do with the sheer power that can be put down, unlike rock crawling and other off-roading events needing extreme articulation and puts more stress on the frame.

Respectfully, i don't think that it's offtopic. I agree that the ladder design comes to play in a big way but the major structure is still a monocoque. And to note the rock crawling, the Jeep Cherokee xj chassis has been widely used all over the world for heavy rock crawling, and also to note is the land rover defender and other range rovers. Dune bashing I'd say is quite demanding too however, but i will admit the engineering that went behind the Pajero is too good to compare with other run of the mill monocoques, but my point is body on frame structures aren't a necessity, you can get similar if not better performance from a monocoque chassis as well.

Thank you!

[CA Dhruv]

Originally Posted by Carevidence

Question - how good are hybrid cars and in this case the Hycross for mountain driving especially with a near full load?I'm not looking at fuel efficiency but apart from the torque are there any other areas where a hybrid is inadequate in the mountains?Even normal ICE vehicles suffer some power reduction at higher altitudes.And diesels are soon going to be a story grandparents will be relating.


So if one were not to use the Hycross as a people mover but like a normal car especially for mountain driving is it a justified choice or are we left with no alternatives?

I am looking for answers for these questions too. None of the media outlets have covered this aspect. Or maybe toyota doesnt want them to cover this.
Even i20 diesel produces 240 NM @ 1500 rpm, while turbo petrol produces 172 NM @ 1500 rpm while toyota's new bread & butter is said to produce 209 NM @ 4500rpm. I guess its mostly going to be in redline in hills , oh wait toyota doesnt provide a tachometer .
Also being provided in only Automatic versions is going to cause problems to lots of first timers in hilly areas.

I believe 9/10 Hycross owners in North India would take it to either Himachal or Uttrakhand for the first holiday they get post getting the vehicle.

[BlueJay]

Originally Posted by baarish84

I think you have assumed fuel cost as static , you may want to assume a higher number as fuel prices will go upwards during the course of ownership of say 10 years.

I do have a contrarian view on petrol prices over next 10 to 15 years. Given the sustainability push across the world I think gas prices will not only stabilize but actually go down as the demand will go down. Middle eastern countries will try and postpone that scenario as much as possible by forming cartels but eventually they will have to give in. The recent volatility in petrol prices were because of more immediate reason which is Ukraine war but the macro trend is in opposite direction.

That said, it doesn't alter the essence of your argument.

[varunswnt]

Originally Posted by BlueJay

I do have a contrarian view on petrol prices over next 10 to 15 years. Given the sustainability push across the world I think gas prices will not only stabilize but actually go down as the demand will go down. Middle eastern countries will try and postpone that scenario as much as possible by forming cartels but eventually they will have to give in. The recent volatility in petrol prices were because of more immediate reason which is Ukraine war but the macro trend is in opposite direction.

That said, it doesn't alter the essence of your argument.

100 is the new 70 for petrol prices. It will hover around 100 hereafter. We can have all theories but it ain't happening.

We can continue this discussion in Fuel prices thread for relevance rather continue here.

[ashis89]

Originally Posted by shipnil

Both of you seem kind of agreeing on minimum income required to afford the Hycross. 4L p.m. and third of crore (assuming per annum) are not too far off and are substantial amounts.

Sorry, I'm misunderstood. What I meant in my previous post is that affordability and buying appetite varies across families and is not linked to salaries/monthly earnings.

How much i need to buy a Hyross, I will need to calculate which will also depend on my disposable savings.

Is the Innova priced high? Yes
If I have enough to buy and have a requirement for a 7-seater, will I buy the Hycross? Yes!


PS: A third of a crore/33L annual salary will be about 2L monthly net salary (and not 4L).

[Cresterk]

Another silly question, are either engines turbocharged? It is not mentioned in any review but surely a 2.0L N/A engine cannot produce 170 hp?