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View Poll Results: Do you support the lockdown extension?
Yes 299 47.46%
No 244 38.73%
I'm unsure 87 13.81%
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Old 17th April 2020, 20:51   #916
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by carboy View Post
1. They grow their food in their villages

2. Things are cheaper in rural areas
I think, only if you have a land in your village, you can grow crops and vegetables.
Both have a cycle from sowing to reaping and while for vegetables it is short, for crops it is longer. You need to be settled down at your village to really arrange for water, seeds, fertilizers, etc to ensure that you grow and eat.

Regarding cheaper things in rural areas, also there are logistic and distribution problems.

In my opinion, main need is a psychological one, need to be among family members in these difficult times, that is driving migrant labors seeking opportunities to be back to their homes.

While in rural areas they may get less congested living space, there are high chances of getting infected during travel and spreading disease in previously unaffected area.

Best solution is to arrange for a support system for migrant labor localities in big cities through government, NGOs, and other benevolent organizations.
Also, in case of a possibility that lock down(even a partial one) will be extended by few months, step by step transportation may be arranged. I believe that if people are allowed to travel en-mass, they may be equally eager to travel back to cities on even a small semblance of normalcy. We then will be arguing about inhuman approach of not letting people come to work

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Old 17th April 2020, 20:55   #917
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Both have a cycle from sowing to reaping and while for vegetables it is short, for crops it is longer. You need to be settled down at your village to really arrange for water, seeds, fertilizers, etc to ensure that you grow and eat.
They have family there who are farming. For e.g. my maid goes to her hometown once a year typically during harvest.

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Best solution is to arrange for a support system for migrant labor localities in big cities through government, NGOs, and other benevolent organizations.
That's different. That's a well planned lockdown.

Last edited by carboy : 17th April 2020 at 20:58.
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Old 17th April 2020, 21:25   #918
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by carboy View Post
They have family there who are farming. For e.g. my maid goes to her hometown once a year typically during harvest.
Does that prove or unprove anything?

The 2011 Socio Economic and Caste Census shows that 56% of households in rural India do not own any agricultural land. The NSSO survey on Land and Livestock Holdings as a part of its 70th round (January-December 2013) revealed that top 7.18% of households own more than 46.71% of the land. Increased acquisition of land for infrastructure and industry in this scenario of land hunger of the masses creates a huge distress.
https://www.actionaidindia.org/cause...-the-landless/
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In my opinion, main need is a psychological one, need to be among family members in these difficult times, that is driving migrant labors seeking opportunities to be back to their homes.
This is the real reason why people want get back.

PG owners harassing girls in Bangalore during lockdown. These things may not matter since they are employed in IT..!!
https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.c...w/75148978.cms

Last edited by poloman : 17th April 2020 at 21:43.
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Old 17th April 2020, 21:40   #919
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

According to a news report on Rediff, Maharashtra government has decided to allow over one lakh migrant sugarcane workers to return to their native villages. There is no mention of the logistics for implementing the decision. Couldn't find this same news anywhere else!

https://news.rediff.com/commentary/2...00aebcc39995a3
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Old 17th April 2020, 21:44   #920
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Does that prove or unprove anything?
It shows that even if you don't farm the year around, you may have family which does.

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
The 2011 Socio Economic and Caste Census shows that 56% of households in rural India do not own any agricultural land.
So 44% of households do own agricultural land.
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Old 17th April 2020, 21:51   #921
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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It shows that even if you don't farm the year around, you may have family which does.


So 44% of households do own agricultural land.
But again as per the report 7% household owns 47% of land. Most are landless or marginal farmers. The real reason for migration is abject poverty in villages.

Last edited by Sheel : 17th April 2020 at 22:03. Reason: No political discussion / reference. Thank You.
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Old 17th April 2020, 22:05   #922
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

We have quiet a few boys working for us from Bihar villages. Almost all of them have lands which belong to them and have come to cities to have additional source of income as the income from the agricultural produce is not good enough to support the entire family. Of course they have family back there who take care of the agricultural activities.

Last edited by BlackPearl : 17th April 2020 at 22:18. Reason: Minor typo. Thanks.
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Old 17th April 2020, 22:17   #923
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
The real reason for migration is abject poverty in villages.
Earning potential & opportunities are more in cities. Hence people come to cities for work. Poverty being a relative term (I am definitely a lot poorer than Ambani ), though there is abject poverty, people have food to eat and in case anybody is sick, there are family members for help & care.
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Sure. But what about food? These are mostly people who don't eat when they don't work
Well, the fact is the Govt was blind & ignored the migrant worker population when announcing measures to contain coronavirus. They might not want to accept this and hence go about justifying their action.
Whatever happened, happened. The current need of the hour is to address the problem. The majority of them are still in cities without the guarantee of food or money. Their family at home has received Rs 16 per day (Rs 500 per month) from Govt. Some have started towards their village walking or on cycle and are stuck at state borders. Railways accepting reservations from April 15th now is a cruel joke on them. It is such needs the Govt needs to address.

Last edited by msdivy : 17th April 2020 at 22:19.
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Old 17th April 2020, 22:31   #924
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

I am not sure if this has been discussed already, where were these migrant workers living before lockdown? Did they not have any form of shelter with kitchen? Or were they living in their employer's premises? If yes then did the employer ask them to go away?

The government's intention of announcing the lockdown without warning was to prevent people from travelling to their natives so that they don't carry the virus if they were infected. To help the poor they requested employers to pay their wages (which unfortunately is not happening everywhere and we can't blame the employers too). Additionally the government also claims that they have transferred cash directly to their bank accounts. There are NGOs giving them food and groceries. I am still not able to understand why they want to leave the cities. Is it because they do not have a place to stay? Or did they not receive the cash payout? I think the authorities must discuss with them and solve this problem. Bangalore police seems to be doing a very good job regarding this. They had invited ideas from citizens to address this issue and I saw some tweets from commissioner where it can be seen that the police is in constant communication with the migrants and the situation seems peaceful so far.
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Old 18th April 2020, 00:36   #925
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by nagr22 View Post
I am not sure if this has been discussed already, where were these migrant workers living before lockdown?
I'll give you one instance from recent interactions with labours and asking them this same question.

Cost of living in Mumbai is high. Even for slums. So these labours land up sharing accommodation. They will utilise every square inch of the shed. So in a 5x10 foot there would be 4 people sleeping and it is still expensive. So what do they do? They get more room mates who work the night shift. Thus, 8 people share the room and sleep in shifts of 4 depending on their working hours.

With everything shut, this becomes a problem. A very big problem.

The second issue is sanitation. When you go for work, you utilise sanitation at the worksite. Now you are at home, so all of a sudden, the toilet requirements quadruple.

Thirdly, when you all can't sit in the excuse for a house, you sleep outside. That leads to friction with neighbours and then the cops also enforce that you don't get out.

All these events cascade!

Forthly, if a building is under renovation, then contract workers work and sleep in the same building. With the lockdown, most societies will remove these workers from their premises. These are floating workers without any residence and they move from site to site and stay there. Where will they go?
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Old 18th April 2020, 00:49   #926
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
I'll give you one instance from recent interactions with labours and asking them this same question.
While this doesn't really answer the question per se, how is our system of health and safety regulation, assuming one even exists so pathetic that it could let such a situation manifest in the first place ? This lock down has revealed just how far behind other countries we lag in all key aspects.

Also, I wonder just how bad life must be for a person to choose and prefer this sort of a lifestyle in the "city" of Mumbai.

Last edited by aah78 : 18th April 2020 at 01:24. Reason: Quote trimmed.
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Old 18th April 2020, 02:04   #927
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Plenty of valid arguments, but how about just a little basic human empathy for a second instead of cold analysis?

How many here, in the current pandemic, would agree to be locked into their office buildings indefinitely with all facilities turned off, because someone other than the ones inside the building felt that's the right thing to do?

Even if some agreed to start with, how many wouldn't start clamoring to be allowed to go 'home to family' once things get desperate, and understand the 'sacrifice for larger good' and stay inside indefintely?

Do unto others...
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Old 18th April 2020, 02:27   #928
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by nagr22 View Post
...
I am still not able to understand why they want to leave the cities....
...
Bangalore police seems to be doing a very good job regarding this. They had invited ideas from citizens to address this issue and I saw some tweets from commissioner where it can be seen that the police is in constant communication with the migrants and the situation seems peaceful so far.
Yes of course, the poor people who are without food or shelter are active on Twitter. Why can't they just communicate better?

And do you mean the brilliant Bangalore police who went around whacking people with lathis, and threatened to seize cars if you went out to buy groceries, but sent 50 policemen to escort HDG, HDK, family, 60 guests, and innumerable support staff for a wedding?!

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
Plenty of valid arguments, but how about just a little basic human empathy for a second instead of cold analysis?

How many here, in the current pandemic, would agree to be locked into their office buildings indefinitely with all facilities turned off, because someone other than the ones inside the building felt that's the right thing to do?

Even if some agreed to start with, how many wouldn't start clamoring to be allowed to go 'home to family' once things get desperate, and understand the 'sacrifice for larger good' and stay inside indefintely?

Do unto others...
Thank you for saying this and being this way. As a nation, we only seem to empathise when we're stuck in the same situation.

Last edited by v1p3r : 18th April 2020 at 02:29.
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Old 18th April 2020, 06:26   #929
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
But again as per the report 7% household owns 47% of land. Most are landless or marginal farmers.

There are 2 stats here
- 44% of households do own agricultural land.
- 7% household owns 47% of land.

The first stat means that almost 1 out of 2 families own agricultural land.

The 2nd stat means that most people who own land don't own large pieces of land. Lang pieces are owned by a small percentage of land. This doesn't mean that the rest of the agricultural land owners don't own land or are landless. It means, they own small pieces of land. The 2nd stat doesn't negate the first one.

Last edited by carboy : 18th April 2020 at 06:41.
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Old 18th April 2020, 08:12   #930
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
I'll give you one instance from recent interactions with labours and asking them this same question
Thank you for explaining the ground level problems faced by the migrant workers. This is exactly what I wanted to understand and your answer nailed it. Now what we have to do is think of practical solutions and convey them to the authorities who are asking for suggestions in social media. Let's think of a few.
Sending them all back home is not a safe option right now. Now the first priority should be to give them food, shelter and toilets. Can the authorities split them and utilize the railway station waiting rooms, wedding halls, government schools etc to give them a temporary housing? Ofcourse they should be provided with cooking facilities and portable toilets. For cooking they can take the help of any cooks among themselves. The authorities can also set up projectors and play movies or TV channels.

Ofcourse these are not ideal solutions from a humanitarian point of view and we must have allowed them to go home and be with families. But what has been done is done and we can only look at how to manage this situation at best now. So we can all think and contribute our ideas to the authorities (atleast to the ones who are openly asking for ideas) so that a positive change can be made. Let's not be just another bunch of people who only criticize and complain about everything without providing any solutions.

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
Plenty of valid arguments, but how about just a little basic human empathy for a second instead of cold analysis?
In my opinion, empathetic thoughts alone cannot solve a problem. Empathy should be followed by an objective analysis to get to the root cause and then fix the problem.

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Yes of course, the poor people who are without food or shelter are active on Twitter. Why can't they just communicate better?

I did not intend to say they should communicate on twitter. I meant I saw in twitter about how Bangalore police was communicating with them and such communication by the police followed by actions to solve their problems is the need of the hour.
Here's a video of police speaking to a migrant camp.

Quote:
And do you mean the brilliant Bangalore police who went around whacking people with lathis, and threatened to seize cars if you went out to buy groceries, but sent 50 policemen to escort HDG, HDK, family, 60 guests, and innumerable support staff for a wedding?!
I condemn this incidence. But this doesn't prove that the Bangalore police is handling the migrant crisis badly unless we have evidence to prove otherwise.

Last edited by nagr22 : 18th April 2020 at 08:17. Reason: Added details
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