Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th May 2016, 12:13   #196
BHPian
 
arjab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: MAA/CCU
Posts: 594
Thanked: 1,005 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Unless legislation mandates or rather forces manufacturers to comply to higher crash test standards, nothing is going to change.

Incorporation of safety measures is one of the biggest cost drivers in the development process of vehicles and as everyone knows, OEM's are loathe to add even a single paisa.
Manufacturers in India who are developing vehicles here, will tell you, that "look, our cars are meeting the standards and specifications prevailing in your country now..." and technically speaking, they are actually not violating the rule book.

Indian crash norms are non existent. For example, as far as my limited knowledge goes, manufacturers in India do not need to go for an offset frontal crash, which is actually tougher to meet than a full frontal crash.
Also in the antiquated full frontal crash, that our country has, the measurement is taken as to how far the steering column moves. If the column moves within a designated value inside the cabin, then its a pass. No chest loading, knee loading, pole test etc are taken. Same goes for side crash. In India it is cleverly termed as "side intrusion" - not side impact! Again an "xxx"mm value / displacement is taken to judge a pass. Rear impact, luggage intrusion, which is popularly known as "Eurobox test" is not mandatory for homologation. So its not done! Neither are rear fog lights mandatory, so if one wants, don't provide a foglight!

And this is the reason why we still have ancient 30 year old Japanese platforms and vehicles like Maruti Omni running around and being produced happily. If HM was alive, even fresh new pieces of the good old Amby would still have been produced ! Again, technically, these vehicles "meet the prevailing Indian safety standards"

And this is the big picture.
OEM's will never, ever voluntarily incorporate or design advanced safety measures in their vehicles, measures which they will say, "are not needed by the country's present standards". And that unfortunately, on "paper" is a "correct" statement they will be making.

Yes, Completely Built Up, (CBU's), and those "global vehicles" which are made and exported to EU will in all probability meet the NCAP tests as usually for these vehicles the Body - In - White, (BIW), is common, and it takes too much of an effort to have "separate" BIW's for India an export versions - but again here also, one can tweak a few reinforcements and brackets, here and there and have an "Indian" version.

Case in point is the old, and now discontinued "Aston - Martin - Grille" Ford Fiesta. A friend of mine told me once the Fiesta was extremely expensive to build because large parts of the BIW, such as A-pillars, cant rails etc were impregnated with boron steel for superior crash performance. However it did not sell much and did not make money for Ford India.

Yes, it is indeed a matter of "conscience" for the OEM's. But then business, (read that as money making), and conscience are strange bedfellows and can hardly be considered to be lovers!

All we can hope for is for the speedy roll out of our version of NCAP.
And along with that, banks & financial institutions should increase the scope of new vehicle purchase, through flexible, innovative financing models.
This will enable that, despite the higher sticker price, prospective owners will still be able to buy safer vehicles for themselves and their families.
arjab is offline   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 12:15   #197
BHPian
 
vibbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pune
Posts: 823
Thanked: 721 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

I am wondering, along with the crash tests as done by GNCAP is it not important that we also have some bench marking by the way of crashing two cars head on.

I mean the Scorpio's structure got deformed when crashed against a stationary target. In case of a head on collision between say a Scorpio and a Polo, what will happen?

If for each hatchback they test if we also have a result of head on collision with an SUV, it would be easier for the layman to understand the practical implications.
vibbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 12:40   #198
Senior - BHPian
 
mayankk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 3,985
Thanked: 3,096 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all


Were you guys expecting anything different?
Making a car crash worthy is a science. WIthout laws to force the manufacturers to test this, instead of providing a "Stylish Gearknob with LED light", they couldn't have "accidentally" made a 5 Star vehicle. "Sir, we got 5 Stars!". "O teri!! Sweets for the staff. Mirchi nimbu for the cars!"

As a byproduct of getting a zero, since negatives were impossible(Look at it and your leg will break), I hope the Indian NCAP are worthy, and not something drafted with the manufacturers as Prime-consultants.
mayankk is online now   (9) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 12:40   #199
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,059
Thanked: 285 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

It is sad that these cars failed the tests. But my point is - Why test a car knowing that it does not have airbags and rate it at Zero stars?

We do not need crash tests to tell us that these cars would have scored a zero. Every manufacturer has sold a car in India with no airbags (including VW and Toyota).
blue_pulsar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 12:55   #200
Senior - BHPian
 
asr245's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 1,117
Thanked: 328 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
It is sad that these cars failed the tests. But my point is - Why test a car knowing that it does not have airbags and rate it at Zero stars?

We do not need crash tests to tell us that these cars would have scored a zero. Every manufacturer has sold a car in India with no airbags (including VW and Toyota).
I think as a rule they crash the base model. But even this tells a lot. The report says that even the shell is unsafe, which basically means that even with airbags ratings wont change. In one of crash test videos (Kwid 3 or Celerio), you can actually notice how the steering is pushed towards the driver. I don't think an airbag can do much in such cases.

Results of Figo & Polo tested some time ago scored 1 or 2 stars but mentioned that with airbags, cars would have scored higher.
asr245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:01   #201
BHPian
 
Vigkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 639
Thanked: 1,061 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
Why test a car knowing that it does not have airbags and rate it at Zero stars?

We do not need crash tests to tell us that these cars would have scored a zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by v12 View Post
INDIAN CARS FLUNK GLOBAL CRASH TEST

Quote:
Among those tested, only the Toyota Etios Liva managed to get a four-star rating for driver safety. It was equipped with --you guessed it -- two airbags.
Saddens me extremely to see assumptions like this. Posts quoted above and some others are implying that Etios got 4 star and others got 0 stars just because of the presence and absence of airbags respectively.

While absence of airbags guarantee low rating, we should not forget that the cabin was deemed unstable for ALL the cars which got 0 star in the latest test. i.e. Even with airbags, the rating would be exactly the same. On the other hand, last time around, when Polo, Etios, Figo got 0 star due to the absence of airbags, GNCAP had noted that the cabin was stable for Polo and Figo (I dont remember about Etios).

I feel really bad for people who still maintain that
  • ABS is only for high speed drives - I dont drive fast
  • Airbags are only useful in highways or Airbags are not relevant in Indian scenario - I am never going to take this car to highways
  • I use this car only in city, so safety features are not important to me.
Cant differentiate if they are really ignorant or choose to be.

In my opinion, any extra safety feature results in better safety and having them does not really hurt - does it? I am someone who will hope that the safety equipment in my car is never put to use, but I should have them in case I need them to come to my rescue.

And, there are other posts that ASSUME the below (there could be more - I can only recollect these):
  • Honda City is safe - because one of their professors were bragging about it
  • XUV is safe - because it passed Australian NCAP with 4 stars
  • Vista is safe, hence Zest / Bolt is safe - because it passed one of the NCAPs
Well, I can only say one thing - In my POV, ASSUME = Making an ASS out of yoU and ME

Last edited by Vigkey : 18th May 2016 at 13:03.
Vigkey is offline   (6) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:01   #202
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chennai
Posts: 57
Thanked: 20 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjab View Post
Unless legislation mandates or rather forces manufacturers to comply to higher crash test standards, nothing is going to change.


Yes, Completely Built Up, (CBU's), and those "global vehicles" which are made and exported to EU will in all probability meet the NCAP tests as usually for these vehicles the Body - In - White, (BIW), is common, and it takes too much of an effort to have "separate" BIW's for India an export versions - but again here also, one can tweak a few reinforcements and brackets, here and there and have an "Indian" version.

.
The last part you talked about is very true - even BIW gets modified for global cars when they are sold here. If I remember made in India swift for other countries than the ones sold in India (ZXI). Even Ford made changes to BIW for the European version of Ecosport. So unless we have an inside contact who can help us, its going to be tough to select safe cars !.
partha379 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:03   #203
Distinguished - BHPian
 
CrAzY dRiVeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bangalore / TVM
Posts: 7,693
Thanked: 11,130 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
It is sad that these cars failed the tests. But my point is - Why test a car knowing that it does not have airbags and rate it at Zero stars?

We do not need crash tests to tell us that these cars would have scored a zero. Every manufacturer has sold a car in India with no airbags (including VW and Toyota).
Not entirely true. One star rating is possible if the structure is good enough. Case in point- FIAT Palio and Ford KA without airbags received one star rating.

Please see the post here for more detail-

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian-car-scene/168182-india-made-hyundai-grand-i10-fails-latin-ncap-crash-test-8.html#post3804177
CrAzY dRiVeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:19   #204
BHPian
 
coolvenk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 57
Thanked: 40 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by sajo View Post
Absolutely agree with you here! Tbhp is a major influence , and manufacturers will take notice. I dont know how many feathers it will ruffle , but hey, thats not going to stop us from advocating what is right , right ?

If packaged food can be banned based randomly tested for chemicals which may harm consumers, I think government should certainly step in for cars which may (potentially) kill its occupants.
I think going one step further, Team BHP should seriously consider rescinding the Car of the Year title for the Kwid, in light of this new information with an Editor's note citing the safety issues. Not doing this will be a disservice to readers who might base their purchase decision on the review as it stands and the fact that Kwid was named Car of the Year. Furthermore, rescinding the Car of the Year title allows us to maintain our high moral ground and sends a strong signal to manufacturers about how seriously we take the issue of safety.
coolvenk is offline   (10) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:25   #205
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mysore
Posts: 67
Thanked: 132 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

An A segment car without airbags - I can live with. But most A segment cars sold in India are made for India. Many cars like the Eon have been developed ground up for the south/south-east Asian market and crores have been spent on the development. Why can't structural safety as per NCAP standards be mandated during development by these companies?

I can understand Airbags and ABS will add to the cost of the car, but if structural safety is considered during development, will it add significant cost to each unit of the car?
sidzzone is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:35   #206
BHPian
 
ksameer1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 235
Thanked: 318 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
And, there are other posts that ASSUME the below (there could be more - I can only recollect these):
  • Honda City is safe - because one of their professors were bragging about it
  • XUV is safe - because it passed Australian NCAP with 4 stars
  • Vista is safe, hence Zest / Bolt is safe - because it passed one of the NCAPs
Well, I can only say one thing - In my POV, ASSUME = Making an ASS out of yoU and ME
Pardon me, but I would want to believe that XUV and Vista / Zest / Bolt are safer compared to others on the basis of visible results. I hope there is no assumption involved here.

Or should we looks for something other than the validated crash tests to conclude on the safety aspect?
ksameer1234 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:40   #207
BHPian
 
Vigkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 639
Thanked: 1,061 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksameer1234 View Post
Pardon me, but I would want to believe that XUV and Vista / Zest / Bolt are safer compared to others on the basis of visible results. I hope there is no assumption involved here.

Or should we looks for something other than the validated crash tests to conclude on the safety aspect?
If I understand correctly, these tests were on Indian made exported cars and not the exact cars sold in India. That is why I maintain that we should not assume that the same cars sold in India are equally safe. There are reports that Ford Ecosport made in India but exported to other countries have various additional components to enhance structural strength compared to the ones sold in India. How can we be sure, Mahindra and Tata to not resort to similar tactics.

I would believe the ratings to be true only if cars tested were made in and purchased from India and not export models. Hope this clarifies.
Vigkey is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:40   #208
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: KA
Posts: 336
Thanked: 222 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
We, at Team-BHP, are very very angry and upset with the car manufacturers for failing to meet basic safety standards in their cars and understandably so.. This thread is on it's 13th page as I write and growing very rapidly!

............
My friend, you made a good point but missed a big one. The necessity of having laws in place. Let me tell you a fact. There was a time in EU where active restraint system a.k.a the seat belts were not mandatory and people were flouting the rules at every blink of eye. IIRC, this was around 80s and there were a record no. of accidents and fatalities that were reported before this law came into effect.

quote:

Road safety: new European rules on seat belt use
The latest European Directive[1] on the compulsory use of seat belts has to be incorporated into law in the Member States by 9 May 2006. Under the existing European legislation it was compulsory to use seat belts in vehicles below 3.5 tonnes fitted with restraints. This obligation has now been extended to all categories of vehicles. The Directive also requires the use of restraint systems specially adapted for children.


Unquote

Source:
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-06-583_en.htm


Realising the importance of safety and the measures to be taken, the adoption was unanimous and subsequently lot of other introduction/amendments were made. The safe Europe that we pledge by today was possible only due to these strict laws enforced by the lawmakers of respective countries.

The point now I am trying to make is; It is very easy to blame the Aam Junta for all the mess in our country. While you are true that we have high disregard for human life or safety, putting the blame entirely on them is not right. If the government really cares to make our roads and streets safer, they should enforce laws and make strict rules and punishments for offenders.

For Ex: If ABS is made mandatory, whether you think you need it or not, It is already there and would play it's part when required. Same with Airbags too.

We as common man are already burdened by this ever even increasing expenses and the holes in our pockets are getting bigger by each passing day. Having said that, I don't think it is insane for anyone to consistently think about ways to save more money. This eventually becomes the highest priority and it shows in there vehicle purchases too.

In a country of 1.2 billion, it is almost impossible to make people aware of automotive or road safety. The only way to do is to have rules in place and make sure the enforcement agencies are doing their job whether it's the corporates or common people.

The upcoming Bharath NCAP is a strong move towards that. India is growing and such a law should have been in place long back, but better late than never.

From a Common Man..

Cheers.. Shiv
Shiv_1984 is offline   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:41   #209
BHPian
 
ashua's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pune
Posts: 90
Thanked: 69 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

Quote:
In the USA, even the NCAP standard is fixed at 56 km/hr, it is not fixed at 64 km/hr. What they have done in India is to test the vehicles at 64 km/hr whereas we do it at 56 km/hr in accordance with government standards. So, if you do it at a higher speed, then naturally, you will get a different result. And that is what this is about. Government standards remain what they are at 56 km/hr crash test.
The brazen attitude with which R C Bhargava dismisses the test results because they were done at 64 km/h and not at 56 km/h is both ridiculous and unbelievable. I am no expert but surely a difference of 8 km/h is not going to result in a night and day difference in the test results.

Quote:
Latha: Would you voluntarily want to up any of your standards, not because the government is asking, but for your own satisfaction?
A: We have to look at all of these in the context of the cost of doing these versus the benefits which come from it. And that study will always be there to see whether there is an value in doing it. If people are driving in the city and the average speed in the city is 40 km/hr, then doing a crash test which is equal to 128 km/hr crash test, instead of a 112 km/hr, you have to work out what good will it do will it not do any particular good at all. Just to adopt of higher standards for the sake of higher standards if they are not going to come into play at all is something which you need to think about.
The 64 km/h is equal to 128 km/h in a real world accident scenario . Have I been away from the forum for so long that the laws of physics itself have changed? Why oh why did the anchors not ask him to elaborate on it and enlighten us all!

He also goes ahead to say no action will come of the results even if others (Renault) are doing something about it. We should at least appreciate his honesty on the subject even if it is gut wrenching.

Read more at: http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bus...ce=ref_article
ashua is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2016, 13:49   #210
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Chennai
Posts: 169
Thanked: 97 Times
Default Re: More Indian cars face Global NCAP crash tests. Edit: ZERO for all

- If Scorpio which is supposed to be one of the premium products of M&M had failed then I do not have much hopes on their cheaper products TUV300 and KUV100. We could conclude that they will also fail.

- Maruthi seem to be the masters in failing the NCAP tests and deserve a PhD on 'how to fail NCAP tests'?. Their Alto and Swift failed. Ritz and Ertiga based on the same platform as that of Swift and we can conclude they will also fail. Now Celerio had failed? Wasn't that supposed to be the modern replacement of A-Star. Don't have much hopes on Baleno and Vitara Brezza clearing the test for Maruthi.
searacer932 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too... rajess_in The Indian Car Scene 638 15th September 2016 17:15
Chevrolet Sail scores 0 stars in Latin NCAP crash tests Aditya The International Automotive Scene 13 18th April 2016 11:07
Toyota Etios awarded 4-Stars in Global NCAP Crash Test technicalytuned The Indian Car Scene 48 13th February 2016 09:58


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 12:21.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks