[jetsetgo08]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

How is this a bad thing?

Simple, it leads to monopoly and not a healthy competition. The result of which will be seen in the upcoming years where we will see manufacturers raising white flags or dishing out watered down products at best.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

No sane company will put money on the table when they are the lone offering in the segment, the other brands are offering AMTs at higher prices.

Well, they don't have any money to put on the table, because the public didn't vote with their wallets in the past. Forget R&D expenditure, brands are struggling to survive, some divesting and some of them with one leg out of the country. However, I agree, it's a vicious cycle of Chicken & egg situation, where neither public nor the manufacturers can be squarely blamed.

However, keeping emotions aside, all is good if the customer gets the max. bang for his buck. And ironically I may one day consider the Sonet, if I am in the market, but only if it sports at least a 4-star safety rating considering it's launched in 2020.

[TS Rawat]

Dear Col Mehta,
They have a GTX+ DCT on display. When I visited the showroom there was hardly any crowd. I suggest you too go around 3.00 pm. This is just after their lunch.
All the best.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by jetsetgo08

Simple, it leads to monopoly and not a healthy competition. The result of which will be seen in the upcoming years where we will see manufacturers raising white flags or dishing out watered down products at best.

... And ironically I may one day consider the Sonet, if I am in the market, but only if it sports at least a 4-star safety rating considering it's launched in 2020.

It'll not be an automatic monopoly, the winners account for the bulk of profits in any industry. Brands that quit are pretty useless operators, right now there is a market for 1 kind of car in different sizes. A number of manufacturers have made the small version and Hyundai /Kia made the larger one too. No one bothered with a Creta rival, instead we have brands offering half baked decade old products with new lights and upholstery.

It's a sensible path to choose a car that's in demand, nothing ironic about that. It is not like Kia held a patent for diesel automatic compact crossover, they are the last entrants with the best options.

[Behemoth]

Ok, so I was able to finally see the Sonet Today in person at Frontier Kia - MG road showroom , Gurgaon.

I must say that I am impressed with this car! It is a nifty smart little package and looks much better in person than in Pics. The Rear also looks quite smart and that connecting reflector actually looks good in person. I saw the car in red GTX+ variant so possibly it could be blending in better. Here are the pics from my quick visit - I spent only 7 min in the showroom as It was quite crowded and I did not want to expose myself to Covid too much!













The Front really looks nice and strong - in fact it has a better looking face that Seltos. In Comparison, the Seltos looks a bit dated! If the Seltos is suave and polished City dweller, the Sonet is a wild and brutish car in comparison (From the front). From the rear it looks polished and sophisticated - kind of like a Honda Odyssey rear, but better!

Coming to the Interiors, Fit and Finish in most places is top notch and materials and textures are well chosen. Only bugbear which I could find is that the Dashboard is made entirely of Hard plastic and there are no soft touch materials anywhere!



The AC Buttons also are very functional and though they are a bit large in size, are very tactile and have a good feel to them akin to German cars of yesteryears. I for one prefer having Button controlled AC , rather than Touch screen control ones.




On the Music system , I did get an opportunity to hear the sound from the Bose system and it sounds good in the Sonet (better than the one in the Seltos). Probably the Sonet has better damping and is tuned better. There is really good punch from the subwoofer too and the mids and trebles are clear.



Coming to the elephant in the room - the rear leg space - Well it is definitely more than the Ecosport and also more than the Venue (by around 3 inches by my estimate). With the Driver seat set to my height (5'8") you can see the legroom I have in the rear seat (which is around 6 inches per my estimate). How Kia seems to have done this is by making the seating posture a bit more upright rather than laidback.



So the seat recline angle is more upright (than even Seltos) and the seat Squab is also higher from the floor level. This way the whole rear seat is shifted slightly backward and more legroom is liberated.




Now to the next Elephant in the room! The actual Boot space of the car ! As per my measurements (I took a measuring tape), The boot measurements (Below parcel shelf) are: Upper Length : 40 cm
Lower Length : 70
Width: 110 cm
Height : 60cm



So the Caculated boot space of the Sonet (Below parcel shelf) is :
(((70+40)/2)*60*110) /1000 = 363 L !! Now this is a good boot space and the actual usable boot space of the Sonet is substantially larger than even the Seltos! (You can find the Seltos boot measurements on my Boot Measurements thread)!

One thing very quirky (and a bit unsafe) about the car is that there is very little protection by the bumper from any rear end collision. You can see in the Pic below that the glass area is almost in line with the bumper. But I guess this is the case with most sub 4M cars which try to maximise the space inside within <4m


Few other things:
The Ground clearance of the Sonet is really good actually and the front and rear overhangs are also short. Even though this is not a 4x4 , people should be easily able to take it to difficult terrain and this car should also not have any issue in going to Leh as it is very high. There is also a bit of underbody protection available to protect the engine.

Front Underbody:


Ground Clearance:


Rearunderbody:


Alloy Design and red caliper - GTX+ variant:


So my overall impression is quite good about this car. It is a smart practical package which can manage to do most things well:
1) Good power (Petrol DCT and also Diesel)
2) Convenient gearboxes for city driving (AT in Petrol as well as diesel)
3) Good Mileage (Diesel AT)
4) Good Boot space (better than Seltos!)
5) 6 airbags - good safety
6) Bling value of sunroof
7) Bold Design and colours
8) Good for Outstation holidays too - good ground clearance and boot space

So overall its a great package in my view and what remains to be seen is the price it gets launched at. The Sales associate was saying that the top GTX+ diesel AT variant would come at around 13 lacs, which is fair price for the car, though I wish they would price it a bit lower around 12.4 lacs ex showroom.
This car will really set the cat in the bag for all other manufacturers and all cars - Compact SUVs (Like Brezza) and even Sedans like Honda City will be hit as the price positioning is similar. I expect Kia to cover a very wide price band ranging from 7 lacs - 13 lacs, with so many different variants.
This car will surely be the car of the year and the runaway success of the year - Inspite of COVID in 2020.

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

Coming to the elephant in the room - the rear leg space - Well it is definitely more than the Ecosport and also more than the Venue (by around 3 inches by my estimate).

3 inches ~ 75mm.
How much is the wheelbase difference between this and the venue ? Reason I asked, is because, 70-100mm is the usual gain for "extended wheelbase" avatars in luxury sedan segment ; and I will be mightily surprised if KIA have managed to squeeze out so much more from the same platform shared with venue.

[JithinR]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

3 inches ~ 75mm.
How much is the wheelbase difference between this and the venue ? Reason I asked, is because, 70-100mm is the usual gain for "extended wheelbase" avatars in luxury sedan segment ; and I will be mightily surprised if KIA have managed to squeeze out so much more from the same platform shared with venue.

I don't think there is a difference in the wheelbase (that will take much more R&D and testing to get just right). He was talking about the additional rear seat legroom for which Kia seems to have packaged the car in a slightly different manner (much more easier to do).

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by JithinR

I don't think there is a difference in the wheelbase (that will take much more R&D and testing to get just right). He was talking about the additional rear seat legroom for which Kia seems to have packaged the car in a slightly different manner (much more easier to do).

how ? if the basic unibody frame is same, that means the position of dashboard, front seat rails' position, B pillar, rear wheel arch are all same -> where will the extra room come from, unless wheelbase is increased ?

'packaging' cannot be done any better if the structure doesn't allow it. Hence my Q whether there is any change to the structure itself

[JithinR]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

how ? if the basic unibody frame is same, that means the position of dashboard, front seat rails' position, B pillar, rear wheel arch are all same -> where will the extra room come from, unless wheelbase is increased ?

'packaging' cannot be done any better if the structure doesn't allow it. Hence my Q whether there is any change to the structure itself

Like the OP said

How Kia seems to have done this is by making the seating posture a bit more upright rather than laidback.

So the seat recline angle is more upright (than even Seltos) and the seat Squab is also higher from the floor level. This way the whole rear seat is shifted slightly backward and more legroom is liberated.

The increased space is from how the seat is placed in the body not due to any change in the body itself.

[DriveOnceMore]

A first hand input about rear space from prospective customers.
It's a 4 seater car at the best.

https://youtu.be/hlbcOVoVh30

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

how ? if the basic unibody frame is same, that means the position of dashboard, front seat rails' position, B pillar, rear wheel arch are all same -> where will the extra room come from, unless wheelbase is increased ?

'packaging' cannot be done any better if the structure doesn't allow it. Hence my Q whether there is any change to the structure itself

Sure, let me try to explain how this is done. (This is a Hypothetical example and not a real comparison between Venue / Sonet/ Seltos - we will leave that for the official review by the Mods!)

Lets assume that we have two cars as shown below. The space between the roof and floor is same for both cars and the seat piece lengths are also same - seat squab and seat back.

Now in Car 1 (Left image), the seat anchor point P is at a point where the seat position is a relaxed laid back seating, with seat back angle of 120 Degree (from Horizontal) and the seat squab too is inclined upwards at 15 Degree. So the angle between the Seat back is 105 Degrees (laidback position). As a result, the base of the seat has shifted forward a bit and legroom distance between the front seat back and the rear seat squab is less. Some manufacturers also play smart here and reduce the Seat squab length, to make the legroom appear more, when it is not actually so and in this case, there is very little thigh support.



Now let's move to car 2 - in this car, the space between the roof and the Floor is exactly same. What they have done is :
1) raised the Seat squab height (say by 2 inches)
2) reduced the seat back rake angle by 10 Degrees (say 110 degrees)
3) Changed the seat squab angle to 10 degrees from Horizontal
4) effective back rake angle for passengers is now 100 Degrees (more upright sitting posture)
5) moved the Point P a bit more backwards.

The results of this exercise are:
Legroom is increased
Headroom is reduced, but if the car has a scooped out roof, so it compensates for that.
In the seating geometry now for the rear seat, the distance from seat squab level to the floor is higher, so people can keep their legs more closer to 90 degree angle and will not need to extend them forward (upto a certain height) so they will be more comfortable.

This modification is a form of smart engineering which can only be done at design stage, and depends on the ideal balance of legroom and headroom. The average height of Indian passengers is typically less, so more legroom can be liberated at the expense of headroom - this type of smart engineering which makes better designed products.

On the width aspect though, the Sonet is better as a 4 seater only as the seat width is not too much (which is true for most CSUV segment cars and also all European cars - VW, Skoda as they have a very high Transmission tunnel)

Another car which has really smart space management is the Renault Triber, which in a sub 4 m footprint, is able to accommodate 7 passengers comfortably and uses a very smart seating system , where even the middle row seats can slide on sliders to liberate more space.

It is possible to design cars which are smart and use space effectively and it's just that time , effort and money needs to be spent at the design stage.

[TusharK]

Rumour! Kia Sonet ARAI fuel economy numbers leaked

While Kia is gearing up to launch the Sonet in India on September 18, fuel economy numbers of the new sub-4 meter SUV have now leaked.



As we know, the Sonet will be offered with three engine options. The 1.2-litre naturally aspirated petrol engine produces 82 BHP @ 6,300 rpm and 115 Nm @ 4,200 rpm. It is paired with a 5-speed manual gearbox and is said to return 18.4 km/l.

The 1.0-litre turbo petrol engine produces 118 BHP @ 6,000 rpm and 172 Nm @ 1,500-4,000 rpm. This engine will be offered with either a 6-speed iMT or 7-speed DCT. This engine is said to deliver 18.2 km/l.

The 1.5-litre diesel engine paired with a 6-speed manual gearbox makes 99 BHP @ 4,000 rpm and 240 Nm @ 1,500-2,750 rpm. This engine and gearbox combination delivers 24.1 km/l.

The same engine comes in a higher tune with a variable geometry turbocharger. It produces 113 BHP @ 4,000 rpm and 250 Nm @ 1,500-2,750 rpm and is paired with a 6-speed automatic transmission. It is said to deliver 19 km/l.

Thanks to Theja for sending this information in. Heartfelt gratitude for sharing it with other enthusiasts via this Team-BHP page!

Link to Team-BHP News

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by JithinR

The increased space is from how the seat is placed in the body not due to any change in the body itself.

Originally Posted by Behemoth

Floor is exactly same. What they have done is :
1) raised the Seat squab height (say by 2 inches)
2) reduced the seat back rake angle by 10 Degrees (say 110 degrees)
3) Changed the seat squab angle to 10 degrees from Horizontal
4) effective back rake angle for passengers is now 100 Degrees (more upright sitting posture)
5) moved the Point P a bit more backwards.
It is possible to design cars which are smart and use space effectively and it's just that time , effort and money needs to be spent at the design stage.

Guys, I fully understand what you are saying, my Q is only this - the seat mounting points (how it is fixed to the structure) is defined by the platform structure itself - and both venue and sonnet share the same 2500mm wheelbase structure, where the anchor points for dashboard, front and rear seats are all fixed. So the only way to play around this, as you mentioned @Behemoth is using the seatbase and seatback angles & seatsquab size. With that alone, I find it hard to believe that they have managed to squeeze out ~3inches/75mm. It sounds like very easy, but it isn't , to the extent I have researched about this, if the front seat size, position and inclination, at the time of measuring legroom are the same between the two.

My gut feel is (no offence @Behemoth, consider it a purely technical argument) that 3 inches is a very optimistic number, if the front seats & the thickness of foam in the rear seats, between the venue and sonnet are exactly the same.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by DriveOnceMore

A first hand input about rear space from prospective customers.
It's a 4 seater car at the best.

What's the frustration here? The Sonet is based on the Venue and in the end it is a sub 4m SUV. There is no sub 4m SUV that can seat 3 in comfort at the back.

The NExon and XUV300 do a slightly better job but even they are strictly 4 seaters at best.

No real suprise there. The width has to be proportional to length and given length is fixed at 4m there's not much to do.

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

Guys, I fully understand what you are saying, my Q is only this - the seat mounting points (how it is fixed to the structure) is defined by the platform structure itself - and both venue and sonnet share the same 2500mm wheelbase structure, where the anchor points for dashboard, front and rear seats are all fixed. So the only way to play around this, as you mentioned @Behemoth is using the seatbase and seatback angles & seatsquab size. With that alone, I find it hard to believe that they have managed to squeeze out ~3inches/75mm. It sounds like very easy, but it isn't , to the extent I have researched about this, if the front seat size, position and inclination, at the time of measuring legroom are the same between the two.

My gut feel is (no offence @Behemoth, consider it a purely technical argument) that 3 inches is a very optimistic number, if the front seats between the venue and sonnet are exactly the same.

No offence taken ! At this stage this a technical Hypothetical discussion which needs further investigation and endorsement with facts.
We can know the reality only once Venue and Sonet are compared side by side! But when you see Sonet, it looks nothing like the Venue, neither in Exterior nor in Interior.

On a side note I was suprised to see the Aunty in the Video shared in the previous post that 3 people can sit easily in a Ritz (which has a Width of 1680mm, whereas three people cannot sit comfortably in Sonet, which has a width of 1770 mm!) . The Ritz is a very Tall car, with a narrow body design and has much lesser width.
The best sub 4 m car in terms of Internal space and Boot space I have seen so far is the Honda Jazz - it has a completely flat floor and also has good seat width and can seat three passenger on the rear seat fairly well (medium built!)

With a very limited experience time (due to showroom being crowded and risk of Covid) I tried to share my quick views.

I hope that the Mods are able to keep this car at least for 3-4 days and then share their definitive views on the Sonet. Let's hope that the Mods will be able to compare the Venue with the Sonet in the official review and also with its own sibling the Seltos - It should be a very interesting comparison!
The official launch date of the car is 18th Sep, so I hope that the TBHP review can be out by then.

[DriveOnceMore]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

The NExon and XUV300 do a slightly better job but even they are strictly 4 seaters at best.

Sorry, I differ with your opinion.
Nexon is definitely a five seater with 'some' compromise on shoulder space.
But XUV 300 is no where compromise when it comes to rear bench space.
Despite being sub-4 meter Maruti Suzuki Dzire offers the most real estate for rear passengers.
There are several examples more.
Even Celerio would fare better here.