[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by speedzak

This same Mr. Schumacher was also notorious for putting fellow drivers into risks and bullying them.
He was known to be a notorious thingy in the beginning.
98 season is so easily forgotten? And that is not just the first and final one by him.

Cheapest was in Monaco where he parked his car in the track to deny Alonso the pole. Befitting for the great racing personality he was!!??

I understand your umbrage, but please do not compare MS to the Pampered Pup. The career of that illustrious driver reads somewhat like this:

1985 - Runner up at Junior Karting World Championships

1986 - European Karting Champ

1987 - Repeat

1989 - 1990 - Various places in Formula Konig, Formula Ford 1600 and Formula 3

1991 - F1 Debut for Jordan, finished 12th in the championship in his first year after moving to Benneton despite participating only in some races.

1992 - Finished 3rd in his first FULL season

Since then of course he's won 7 World Championships with 84 wins from 225 GP starts in Jordan, Benneton and an initially struggling Ferrari.

In a career that is spread over 15 years, you may be able to pick up a few such incidents. However, when you analyze the career the percentage of such incidents against his achievements in the sport are not even worth mentioning.

Compare the hit rate with Golden Gob who's been around for all of one full season and has already been involved in as many (or more) controversies - and compare them against his achievements thus far.

Champion or Loser, NOBODY is perfect - the measure of greatness is that your weaknesses or mistakes are overshadowed by your achievements so people ignore them.

However, its been the reverse in the case of Hamilton so far - his achievements so far do not justify his perceived misdeeds. He is behaving like a champion without being one.

[speedzak]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

He is behaving like a champion without being one.

How? And where?
Just by some baseless allegations?
BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula One | Hamilton hits back at criticism
Oh, that's some BRITISH crap. Eh?

Regarding MS's career comparison, once somebody starts winning, only then he should start being aggressive. Is that the theory being spread out here?
Sorry, but I feel that to be a bit too narrow minded.

And first of all, there was no comparison between MS and Hamilton in championship counts or wins. But in driving style and ability, there seems to be a lot in common. To start accepting this, should we wait till Hamilton grabs 7 championships? I don't think so.

BTW, MS could only reach 12th position in his first year. Hamilton reached 2nd in his debute year. Ain't that a good sign by itself?

As much as some people admire MS, there are people who admire others. Why can't it be accepted by the Tifosi gang?

[im_srini]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

1991 - F1 Debut for Jordan, finished 12th in the championship in his first year after moving to Benneton despite participating only in some races.
1992 - Finished 3rd in his first FULL season

The Green & Yellow Benetton-Fords - Ja, I remember them

Originally Posted by Steeroid

In a career that is spread over 15 years, you may be able to pick up a few such incidents. However, when you analyze the career the percentage of such incidents against his achievements in the sport are not even worth mentioning.
Champion or Loser, NOBODY is perfect - the measure of greatness is that your weaknesses or mistakes are overshadowed by your achievements so people ignore them.

So true...

Originally Posted by anachronix

Massa & Bourdais incident:
I repeat the FIA/Stewards see more evidence than what YOU, ME or the MEDIA could see! Take a look at this one which was released by the FOM!
The Official Formula 1 Website
I am surprised that FOM has released these clips!

Hey, thanks for the linky - the video was nice. Yes, I guess we as fans see each incident with an in-built bias. If you ask me, Lewis simply out-braked himself at the start & I don't think he deserved a penalty for that stunt (although he did undo Kimi's brilliant start, this is par-for-the-course in the mid-field isn't it ?). As painful as it is to acknowledge, Massa deserved his penalty for spinning-out Lewis. The Bourdais penalty - I'm unsure, both the drivers were myopic (as Lewis was at the start). I don't think a penalty was deserved there too. However, I feel Bourdais could've taken a tighter line knowing that a faster car was coming down the straight (wish we had on-board of the STR too)...

Originally Posted by speedzak

BTW, MS could only reach 12th position in his first year. Hamilton reached 2nd in his debute year. Ain't that a good sign by itself?

SpeedZak, read Steeroid's post carefully... To quote, "finished 12th in the championship in his first year after moving to Benneton despite participating only in some races" - six to be precise. Lewis participated in all the races his debut year. In his first full season, Shumi was 3rd, just 3 points shy of Patrese in his all-conquering Williams FW14...

[jraj]

Originally Posted by speedzak

How? And where?
Just by some baseless allegations?
BTW, MS could only reach 12th position in his first year. Hamilton reached 2nd in his debute year. Ain't that a good sign by itself?
As much as some people admire MS, there are people who admire others. Why can't it be accepted by the Tifosi gang?

Oh my God.
Just check the same Brit sites which quoted Loudmouth stating " Put me with Schumacher;I am second to none"
And what is with this Schumi reached 12th in his firt and Loudmouth reached 2nd quote mate?Do you realise Schumi didnt drive the full season during his debut and he was not driving the best car on the track as well?Loudmouth is a good driver sitting in a car that is at its best now.So no point in comparing their debut season's.
I am a tifosi and I have no problem with people admiring other drivers.I have a problem when they compare him with Schumi and tell they are on par.
I am eagerly waiting for the next 2 years atleast.Those 2 years will show the world where Loudmouth really belongs.F1 is just not about driving alone.The inputs that those drivers give are very very crucial in the team building the car.Schumi was THE BEST in that.He along with Brawn brought back Ferrari to the front after 2 decades.Infact I think Ferrari miss Schumi considering the various mistakes they are making with strategy\tyre choices.I cant remember any such mistake during Schumi's Ferrari days.
Amongst today's drivers,I think its Alonso who could do that.He left Renault in 2006,they struggled all season.He came back in 2007 and during the season end,Renault are showing good promise for the coming season.
I dont think the same can be said about Loudmouth considering the various mistakes he did with his setups\tyre choices in 2 seasons so far.But its too early to judge him.Likewise its too early to state that he is the best thing to happen to F1.So the next 2 years will show us who he is.Until then,let us leave this Loudmouth \ Schumi comparison.
IMO,the top 3 in current grid are Kimi,Alonso,Kubica.I belive next year will be amazing if Renault can convert the promise that they are showing now into reality.If that happens these 3 guys can put the current championship leaders(Loudmouth\Felipe) in their respective places next year

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by speedzak

Regarding MS's career comparison, once somebody starts winning, only then he should start being aggressive. Is that the theory being spread out here?
Sorry, but I feel that to be a bit too narrow minded.

Nope. I was talking about hit-rate - number of suc incidents v/s number of achievements. I hope you get the drift.

Originally Posted by speedzak

And first of all, there was no comparison between MS and Hamilton in championship counts or wins. But in driving style and ability, there seems to be a lot in common. To start accepting this, should we wait till Hamilton grabs 7 championships? I don't think so.

No we start accepting this when he displays the same ability in a slower car, like MS had for years before the Ferrari started looking like a champion car. He nearly took the championship away from Mika in a much slower Ferrari, and when he did take his first championship on the Ferrari it definitely wasnt the fastest car on the circuit.

And when the car actually turned out to be the fastest, they had to change the rules so that others could score some points too.

Cant say the same about Hamilton, can we? He is driving what is probably the fastest car in the circuit and yet the difference in points between the top 3 isnt much - he still hasnt sewn up the championship. In fact, we have a BMW Sauber driver with a realistic chance of winning the championship if the two on top continue their self-destruct mode.

[suman]

Originally Posted by speedzak

BTW, MS could only reach 12th position in his first year. Hamilton reached 2nd in his debut year.

Yes, but with the best or second best car on the grid. What about MS?

Originally Posted by speedzak

As much as some people admire MS, there are people who admire others. Why can't it be accepted by the Tifosi gang?

Of course it can be accepted - I am a die-hard Kimi fan which is why I'm now at Ferrari. I was earlier with McLaren (Mika, Coulthard & Kimi).

But, to be honest, I thought (till last year) that Alonso was Mr Loudmouth - I'm happy to see that he has been booted out of contention by Hamburger

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by speedzak

How? And where?
Just by some baseless allegations?
BBC SPORT | Motorsport | Formula One | Hamilton hits back at criticism
Oh, that's some BRITISH crap. Eh??

Hamilton the 'moral champion' - Yahoo! Eurosport UK

Originally Posted by speedzak

Regarding MS's career comparison, once somebody starts winning, only then he should start being aggressive. Is that the theory being spread out here?
Sorry, but I feel that to be a bit too narrow minded.

Originally Posted by speedzak

And first of all, there was no comparison between MS and Hamilton in championship counts or wins. But in driving style and ability, there seems to be a lot in common. To start accepting this, should we wait till Hamilton grabs 7 championships? I don't think so.?

Well, Ramilton isnt aggressive. He is arrogant on track! For now he has caused a lot of incidents where he is on the verge of causing disaster to fellow drivers who are not even challenging him for a championship! Hope we are not too narrow minded on this!


Japan07 - (Vettel & Webber Crash out causing lot of -Ve criticism on Vettel)
Bahrain08 - (Spoiled Alonso's race by rear ending him twice. Alonso was criticised for Brake testing Hamilton)
Canada08 - (Spoled the race of Kimi by being wood eyed and rear ending him)
Monza08 - (Dangerously pushed Glock & Webber off the track while overtaking and it was on a wet track which would have been disastarous)
Japan08 - (The 1st corner move where he would have caused a pile up if the other cars dint move off the track)

Are we talking about aggressiveness... No! Its being arrogant and plain stupid! And Michael Schumacher was not that stupid!

Originally Posted by speedzak

BTW, MS could only reach 12th position in his first year. Hamilton reached 2nd in his debute year. Ain't that a good sign by itself?

As much as some people admire MS, there are people who admire others. Why can't it be accepted by the Tifosi gang?

My friend, MS was driving a Benetton and not a Mclaren! I beleive you have no idea about how good the Benetton-Ford was !

Its no wonder or miracle to get a Mclaren upto 2nd. Its a shame that Ramilton lost it!

[jraj]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Take a look at this one which was released by the FOM!
The Official Formula 1 Website
I am surprised that FOM has released these clips!

Wow.Now thats a first I think.Amazing clip.Thank God Kimi was very alert and took evasive action.
I shudder to think what would have happened if he hadnt.Ferrari would have been shredded with all sorts of conspiracy theories :-)
@Srini,agree with you.Karun's commentary was really nice.

[jraj]

[quote=anachronix;1015985
Canada08 - (Spoled the race of Kimi by being wood eyed and rear ending him)[/QUOTE]
.....and he had the ####s to shrug it off as a racing incident.

[speedzak]

To all the ladies fighting out here, can we please keep this clean by not calling drivers by dubious names?
What if somebody uses words like Goomacher/philippi(no)/brazilian bimbo/rain dancer etc.? Is it going to sound pleasing? So, please understand others' emotions as well.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by speedzak

can we please keep this clean by not calling drivers by dubious names?

, i doubt it if these people ( you are refering to ) would like it if others used Names other than their own to refer to them...

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by jraj

Wow.Now thats a first I think.Amazing clip.Thank God Kimi was very alert and took evasive action.
I shudder to think what would have happened if he hadnt.Ferrari would have been shredded with all sorts of conspiracy theories :-)

And the Iceman did it perfect to stay clean of all that!

[wanderlustindia]

Originally Posted by jraj

Wow.Now thats a first I think.Amazing clip.Thank God Kimi was very alert and took evasive action.
I shudder to think what would have happened if he hadnt.Ferrari would have been shredded with all sorts of conspiracy theories :-)
@Srini,agree with you.Karun's commentary was really nice.

I went over the clips more than once and pretty convinced that Hamilton was overdoing his stuff a bit. He could not digest the great start that Kimi had on him. That was a crazy manouvre and definitely breaks the line of aggression and gets into the danger zone.

P.S: The cockpit view is stupendous towards the end of the clip!

[f1fan]

Originally Posted by wanderlustindia

I went over the clips more than once and pretty convinced that Hamilton was overdoing his stuff a bit. He could not digest the great start that Kimi had on him. That was a crazy manouvre and definitely breaks the line of aggression and gets into the danger zone.

P.S: The cockpit view is stupendous towards the end of the clip!

Also if you notice from Lewis's Cockpit view that he had cooked his tires badly by turn 1 which pretty much meant the end for him as he would have had to pit in early throwing whatever strategy he had out of the window.

[iraghava]

Let me forget what happened at the first corner but what really, really astounded me about Hamburger was what he did once Alonso lapped him! I mean what was all that about??

Ego, Ego, Ego & nothing else. Sorry to say, but I'm not impressed at all.