[JayPrashanth]

Originally Posted by amitk26

I somewhat concur to you.

Speed of 13 for 30 minutes for someone who is doing 5 minutes is too much.
That is why I said set a goal of 5 km and once you hit it then think of speed.

Frankly another cardio after 45 mts of running is not good untll goal is marathon

Originally Posted by jimmyjagga

This is nothing against you,but your advise is BS, don't get cross on it, a newbie or even a moderate exerciser can get serious injuries if they try to follow you. We have a responsibilty to fellow member whom we are advising. 8 kilometres, at speed of 13kph, then 20 minutes of cycling at 8 resistance. Followed by strength training. Chin up/ pull up. Squats after such intense cardio. Think about it. I am not a trainer, I guess neither are you. And claiming significant changes in 4 weeks ( a month!). Come on if you are serious and determined enough " significant" change would come in a year.

Both gentlemen kindly re-read what I have written. :-) And you both have conveniently quoted the maximum speeds and distances I've suggested, which is blowing it up quite a bit. And any advise on an internet forum without a trainer actually monitoring your gait/technique while exercising can be risky. So, cut the "responsibility" bit. I am speaking with my own personal experience as I've done these things. BTW, this fitness routine is still a joke for real athletes who compete at higher levels.

Secondly, your broad generalization of a newbie or a moderate exerciser risking serious injury is simply overdoing it. And you call running at 8 Kph for 30 minutes (after 30 minutes, I've clearly mentioned how you slow down in decrements) and cycling for 15 minutes "intense cardio"? I don't think so. Since you say you're not a "certified" fitness trainer, what makes you so confident of your assertion?

And Amit has suggested a 6 week program to do 100 consecutive push ups. I suggested 15 push ups and 6 reps equaling 90 push ups. Guys come on, this is not a big deal at all.

Anyway, this is a fantastic forum for debate and discussion. So, here are a few points.

I have suggested 0.5 kilometer per hour increments each week starting at 8 Kph. If you look at the time frame, I have suggested 6 full months for this fitness routine. Week 1: 8 Kph. Week 2: 8.5 Kph. Week 3: 9 Kph. Week 4: 10 Kph and so on. This is at zero inclination. Most average adults will be able to do this speed comfortably.

In fact, one can do brisk walking on the treadmill at 7.5 Kph. Not sure if
you've tried it. Try it if you can, before calling suggestions backed with experience as BS. Also, I've added the gait bit for running on the treadmill. Of course I can't sit behind a computer and be a fitness trainer can I? So, all these suggestions need to be researched by the OP and I'm sure he'll do some reading to understand what running on your toes instead of your heel means.

When it comes to cycling, you can always go easy on the speed. The real challenge comes when you pedal at say about 22-25 Kph at resistance 8. (that's for me, many others manage it easily.) So, 15 minutes at resistance 8 at say 10 Kph on the cycle will not be difficult as opposed to say, the same at 25 Kph.

Also, can't you read sections of the post where I've suggested one pull up or even just negatives if the person is not able to do (m)any pull ups? So, it's a gradual build up. Not just jumping in and going 90 push ups, 50 pull ups and 50 chin ups on day one. In fact, I could do only 3 chin ups when I began and not even 1 pull up. That is the reason I suggested that chin ups are generally easier.

Then again, I've even added a note which clearly mentions that the OP can start with a single push up/pull up and slowly build it up. So, I think my post hasn't been read fully in the first place.

The OP has already described his routine, which is a great place to start with and he's already working out for 6 days a week. I'm suggesting just 4-5 days to give adequate rest. By significant changes, I mean changes in strength. I think it is pretty clear. If you think, this fitness routine is a big deal, carry on with what suits you.

Cheers,

Jay

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by alpha1

So which olympics athletes really are muscular (in Rambo sense) - you will realize that usually it is the afro-americans. Genetics, not training.

If you want a Rambo body, you will have to do "intense bodybuilding". (which means heavy heavy weights and eating without abandon so that you can lift heavier the next time for months, and then stripping your fat away, crash diet and doing the pump style with medium/light weights again for weeks/months)

Not necessarily so. Look at the male Olympic gymnasts. Some of the best looking proportioned physiques, and very few Africans. Immensely strong too, try even thinking about the crucifix hold on the rings to name just one example. And very functional strength.
They get the way they are by doing lots and lots of gymnastics practice.
Another similar example is the Oly swimmers of sprints/relays.

[JayPrashanth]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Funny, if that is the reason then army should also have squats (albeit without any extra weight) in their regimen.
No?

The reason why army folks have the regimen is simple - to increase endurance. No one cares in the army if you can lift one person or three. But everyone cares if you can run for miles with your full gear. The basic strength requirement in army is pretty average demanding for most human males who are physically fit / active (and in their 20s). It is the stamina / endurance aspect that they wish to work on.

Running / route march trains their lower bodies and heart/lung system for endurance.
push up, pull up, chin up and sit up trains the upper body for endurance.

Shashank didn't want a Bhaag Milkha Style body in the first place. In fact, JimmyJagga thinks/presumes that the routine I suggested will give him that kind of body. All Shashank wanted (if I understood correctly) was to build up core strength for martial arts (this is really demanding. For guys who spend 2 hours per day in the gym lifting weights, try doing mixed martial arts. You'll understand what core strength is all about). And for this you need calisthenics or body weight exercises.

And Alpha1, armies don't want muscles, they want men who can actually clamber up walls, pull themselves up helicopters, rappel etc. In other words, core/function strength is required, as is endurance. This is why I quoted their regimens for Shashank's benefit as he also needs functional strength for martial arts. This is all I know as I'm not a "certified" fitness instructor. I've been advised by some army friends as to how to get stronger. I just implemented what they told me and I am happy that it worked for me.

Thank you, Manolin. I'm glad you read my post fully.

Anyway, time for me to go the gym. See you guys around.

Cheers,

Jay

[jimmyjagga]

Gentlemen,
I have expressed my views ( I stand by BS comment jay), others have expressed their. Go with what suits you best. I am 36 years of age and have had my share of fitness, fatigue and injuries. If you get fit by comments of my fellow bhp'ians good, great! Just keep in mind form is important then any other regime(s), plans, techniques listed here, keep safe, be care full. DO NOT try any technique before getting check up by your ( family) physician and then get a coach ( fitness). Remember you are not in army ( guessing) & you don't have to compete in an event ( again guessing!) take it super slow and easy. LISTEN to your body if it says stop try and relax up a bit. Do not follow a program ( specially strength training) for more than six weeks and then take a week off.

Breath and live
Closing my comments

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by alpha1

The basic strength requirement in army is pretty average demanding for most human males who are physically fit / active (and in their 20s).

May not be that simple. It is not often that we get to know the strength of Army men. But I had one occasion in my NCC days.

We had this short and thin Hawladar in-charge of training us. Generally NCC is considered the trash-bin of the army, they usually send their low performers to NCC companies. We used to tell him he will be blown away if there is a strong wind. After taking our jokes for couple weeks, he showed us something.

He held the 0.303 lee enfield rifle by the tip of the barrel (at the muzzle), so that his arm and the rifle make a single straight line. Then he slowly lifted the rifle from the ground, took it all the way above his head and then slowly returned the rifle to the ground. Then he asked us to do it. Of the 5-6 strong cadets (17-18 years) who tried it, only one could get it one inch above the ground. Rest of us couldn't make the rifle leave the ground. After that day he had our utmost respect.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by JayPrashanth

And Alpha1, armies don't want muscles, they want men who can actually clamber up walls, pull themselves up helicopters, rappel etc. In other words, core/function strength is required, as is endurance.

But the special forces guys end up heavily muscled - it just that they don't have them in places bodybuilders have, they have it where it is functional. US Navy Seals need to be able to do 10+ pull ups, with 40 kilos extra weight strapped on to their bodies. That is the weight of their full combat kit, and the strength needed to do this is needed in their kind of combat.

On the martial arts side, Bruce Lee's physique is even today considered to be unmatched. All functional.

The other thing I have been told - I don't know how valid this is - is that in terms of what capability is lost quickest by not using it: Cardio capacity goes first, then strength via lifting weights. What lasts longest when not used is capacity built via body weight exercises.

[shashank.nk]

Phew! Went to the gym and came back to see so much activity on this thread. Anwyay to clarify, I never mentioned I wanted bhaag milkha type body at all. If somehow my post seems to make a few people think so (I don't think it should) let me clarify, i'm NOT looking for big Arnold type balloon muscles at all! I want strength to be able to train in martial arts.

Anyway, discussed the schedule Jay had given here with my trainer,and he told me it'll take a year or may be more to work at the max levels he's suggested. He told me to start with 20 mins on the treadmill at a speed of 8, could do about 15 mins after which I wasn't feeling very comfortable so decided to stop. Cycling was at 4 for about 10 mins, stopped after that. In summary,sorry to disappoint, but I don't think I'll be crying with the workouts at the gym anytime soon at the Dojo, may be.

As for the Pull ups and chin ups, my trainer told me to try and hold onto the bar for about 2 mins to improve my grip, so started with that and was able to do about 60 secs before my body gave up.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by Samurai

He held the 0.303 lee enfield rifle by the tip of the barrel (at the muzzle), so that his arm and the rifle make a single straight line. Then he slowly lifted the rifle from the ground, took it all the way above his head and then slowly returned the rifle to the ground. Then he asked us to do it. Of the 5-6 strong cadets (17-18 years) who tried it, only one could get it one inch above the ground. Rest of us couldn't make the rifle leave the ground. After that day he had our utmost respect.

Reminds me of this:
Quote
On the day of April 8th, 1865, President Lincoln was at a Union Army field hospital in Virginia, spending hours shaking hands and greeting thousands of wounded soldiers.
At the end of that long day, he spotted an ax and walked over to it.
He was able to grip the ax by the very end of the handle and hold the 7-pound tool parallel to the ground, motionless. He was 56 years old at the time.
“Strong men who looked on, men accustomed to manual labor, could not hold the same ax in that position for a moment,” wrote Francis Fisher Browne, a Union soldier who authored a biography called “The Every-Day Life of Abraham Lincoln.”
Lincoln performed this feat on several occasions and it was never mentioned that anyone could duplicate it.
Unquote
Lincoln was very tall, but lanky. Immense finger, forearm and shoulder strength needed for the feat.

[jimmyjagga]

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Phew! Went to the gym and came back to see so much activity on this thread. Anwyay to clarify, I never mentioned I wanted bhaag milkha type body at all. If somehow my post seems to make a few people think so (I don't think it should) let me clarify, i'm NOT looking for big Arnold type balloon muscles at all! I want strength to be able to train in martial arts.

Anyway, discussed the schedule Jay had given here with my trainer,and he told me it'll take a year or may be more to work at the max levels he's suggested. He told me to start with 20 mins on the treadmill at a speed of 8, could do about 15 mins after which I wasn't feeling very comfortable so decided to stop. Cycling was at 4 for about 10 mins, stopped after that. In summary,sorry to disappoint, but I don't think I'll be crying with the workouts at the gym anytime soon at the Dojo, may be.

As for the Pull ups and chin ups, my trainer told me to try and hold onto the bar for about 2 mins to improve my grip, so started with that and was able to do about 60 secs before my body gave up.

Yaar grow up, nobody said Anything to you, it was about training regime suggested by Jay, made me think of training regime in B.M.B
( hope jay post his pics .
Anyway, try and listen to your coach more than putting your ears here. You did mention jay's max would take you year or more. Stay true to what feedback your body gives you.
A great thing you can do is describe your current physique then your schedule of workout by your trainer and your monthly progress

I hope the case rest now. No more from me, you guys make your own pudding and then eat it too!!

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by jimmyjagga

Yaar grow up, nobody said Anything to you, it was about training regime suggested by Jay, made me think of training regime in B.M.B

Jimmy, my post wasn't meant for you at all :facepalm:

I was responding to this. Didn't quote since that would start an OT discussion,not required on this thread.

Originally Posted by alpha1

And the crying would be done by shashank.nk (iff he has any notions that callisthenics will lead to bhaag milkha bhaag style body)

No Aplha1 I don't

Anyway, try and listen to your coach more than putting your ears here. You did mention jay's max would take you year or more. Stay true to what feedback your body gives you.
A great thing you can do is describe your current physique then your schedule of workout by your trainer and your monthly progress

Yup, have always been doing that and will continue to do so in future too. I "push" my body but not to an extent of injuring myself. I'm not so naive to take a suggestion off the net, and include it in my training regimen without discussing with my trainer, or in case of supplememnts my physician (who btw said a BIG NO). I'm out of here as well.

Thanks to everyone who helped. Yes, Jay too

[nareshov]

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

...
let me clarify, i'm NOT looking for big Arnold type balloon muscles at all! I want strength to be able to train in martial arts.
...

In that case, your current program doesn't look appropriate.
Take a look at the 'starting strength' or 'stronglifts' programs (search this thread or use google).

Also, to disagree with another post earlier that seemed to mix cardio-intensive activities along with weights on the same days (if I read that right), do not do this. Dedicate different days for these.

[nishantmohan]

Learn all about body building at www.bodyrecomposition.com. It's run by lyle mcdonald, respected nutrition guy. He even participates in the forum.

No bs , all backed up by science.

Lots of information for beginners and advanced trainees.

[Sawyer]

Agreed. Lyle runs a good site, lots of useful information.

For pure whole body strength/power development and diet to do so, http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/forum.php
is probably the best there is. Also, no bs, straight shooting site, run by Mark Rippetoe. A lot of American high testosterone there, but if one ignores that, there is a huge amount of material there to learn from, for free. Stronglifts is derived from Mark's programs, but there is a lot of overt marketing by that site's promoter.

[amitk26]

Gentleman while talking about cardio many people take hard numbers such as speed, time, distance as a benchmark.

In this process most important number is often ignored and this number is heart rate. Cardio exercise is called cardio because it relates to heart muscles.

As a rule of thumb your max heartrate should not exceed 220 - your age. So for a 35 years old this should be 185 max.
As your stamina increases you can run longer/faster/on more incline with same max heart rate.

When you set a hard number such as speed of 13kmph for 30 minutes in 1 year as a goal you may be shooting max heart rate limit and in process causing injury invisible to you.

I would suggest if you are working out on treadmill or on elliptical trainer aways use heart rate monitor.

Suppose if you don't have access to HR moniter then running naturally in open and setting distance goal is most appropriate.
As there is no motor to push you beyond your limits chances of damaging cardiovascular muscles is not there in natural running.

Most visible sign of injury due to overworked muscles is myoglobin in urine. Drink a lot of water and if you observe your urine is dark in color just stop and keep drinking lot of water for 3-4 days to flush out. Myoglobin can damage kidneys.

[jimmyjagga]

Originally Posted by amitk26

When you set a hard number such as speed of 13kmph for 30 minutes in 1 year as a goal you may be shooting max heart rate limit and in process causing injury invisible to you.

Most visible sign of injury due to overworked muscles is myoglobin in urine. Drink a lot of water and if you observe your urine is dark in color just stop and keep drinking lot of water for 3-4 days to flush out. Myoglobin can damage kidneys.

Thank you Amit
listen to what he has just said. 13 kph is a big number you'll do more damage then good. This is not an ego forum, where whatever one says one has to keep on arguing to prove his advise as best.
Thanks Amit you have given a nice advise