[Samurai]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Butterfly 1000m continuous or perhaps with 1 minute rest between laps etc in 1 hour

1000m butterfly!!! Are you joking? That is super athlete level stuff.

[Rehaan]

Originally Posted by fine69

By the time I start for office I'm already sleepy. The entire day in office I feel like a zombie and the drive back to home is a major task as I can hardly keep myself awake.

+

Originally Posted by alpha1

Falling sick frequently is a sure shot sign of over-training or under-nutrition or both.

^ Yep, that would be my guess before over-training.

@fine69 - Maybe consider taking a blood test as well. Could be something like a vitamin D deficiency, etc?

[mandheers]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Note to self: Do NOT use Smith Machine for deadlifts . I must have been suffering from brain fade when I tried this couple of days back because earlier I have always used free weights. The bar moved just a couple of inches forward as I was bringing it down, into my 5th rep of second set. I immediately felt something go wrong with my lower back. I let go of the bar and walked gently for the next 10 minutes. By the end of the day I was stiff as an Egyptian mummy. I guess I wont be going to the gym for the next one week or so, which actually works well for me given that I was at the end of the 6 week Dorian Yates program anyway.
Today is Day 3 of recovery and I am already feeling much better than Day 1. But at 37 years, recovery is going to be rather slow

Sorry about the pull, try resting it out and stretch if you feel better.

A very tested method for such stiffness or spasms is Ice-Heat-Ice-Heat-Ice, in that order. Foam rolling also helps, in case any part of the spinal column needs a pop.

Deads are best done with a free bar, the Smith will heavily compromise your body's natural stance, which would be stronger than on the Smith.

Do post your views on DY's program.

Originally Posted by alpha1

Although your point about smith machines and deadlift/squat is in right sense (the weight doesn't move in a straight vertical line when doing it with barbell, therefore smith machine is "unnatural" in enforcing a strict straight path),
I am sure the injury that you are referring to can be had even with free weights when you loosen the lower back tightness just for a moment and round the lower back a wee bit. So don't feel too bad about the smith machine decision

Also try the sumo variation. I have felt that it places the spine in a better position than the narrow stance version. In fact come to think of it: whenever we lift something ultra heavy off the ground, the legs usually lie on the either side of the load.

On the Squat and the Dead, the weight is best moving in a straight line. More in the Squat than the Dead really, but still.

The Squat is best taught moving the weight down and up in a straight line, the Dead is more a pull, and slight backwards, so maybe not exactly in a straight line against gravity.

Sumo is a really good lift, but it's best used as accessory work for variation or if there are issues/injuries with the back or shoulders. It's a much much smaller range of motion and comparatively easier too, than regular Deads. And hence a lot safer.

Plus I've always felt it's more leg dominant.

Originally Posted by fine69

This is the second time I've fallen sick in the last one month. I'm a victim of over-training and need some help.

I usually do about one hour of swimming in the morning followed by weight training at home for 2 major muscle groups everyday.

By the time I start for office I'm already sleepy. The entire day in office I feel like a zombie and the drive back to home is a major task as I can hardly keep myself awake.

Yesterday I again got fever due to exertion so I wanted to check with you all. What's a good routine that continues to have swimming a part of it and weight training also.

My office has a gym so is it better to only do swimming in the morning and probably do weights in the evening? Instead of two muscle groups everyday, should I cut back and only do one?

Plz listen to your body, it's all signs that you need to eat more, supplement better and sleep longer.

Overtraining is a myth.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by mandheers

On the Squat and the Dead, the weight is best moving in a straight line. More in the Squat than the Dead really, but still.

Best moving according to physics, mechanics etc.
But bio-mechanics may not always find the straight line comfortable.
The best example is the "hole" in squat. Unless you take a fairly wide stance, and/or you have relatively shorter legs compared to upper body, and/or bend over quite steeply (which makes it look like good morning), there is no way that the bar would be moving vertically up.

Similarly about the deadlift, unless one has short legs and long arms, it is nearly impossible to track the bar vertical, near the ground.

Clean and Snatch, ideally should be vertical, but not even the best of the Olympics lifter have vertical bar path!

###
{Edit} I just remembered, the best path, even by physics is not vertical.
The best path is the one that ensure that center of mass of the [lifter + barbell] moves in vertical plane.

Makes a huge difference. When the lifter is standing up, the system's center of mass is somewhere near the surface of middle back.
When lifter is squatting down, the center of mass is near the navel. The center of mass moves vertically as well as horizontally!
Therefore the barbell should actually move backwards as we sit down.

Plus I've always felt it's more leg dominant.

You are right, the sumo deadlift is more legs than lower back, and therefore less "ouch" potential.

[mandheers]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Best moving according to physics, mechanics etc.
But bio-mechanics may not always find the straight line comfortable.
The best example is the "hole" in squat. Unless you take a fairly wide stance, and/or you have relatively shorter legs compared to upper body, and/or bend over quite steeply (which makes it look like good morning), there is no way that the bar would be moving vertically up.

Similarly about the deadlift, unless one has short legs and long arms, it is nearly impossible to track the bar vertical, near the ground.

Clean and Snatch, ideally should be vertical, but not even the best of the Olympics lifter have vertical bar path!

###
{Edit} I just remembered, the best path, even by physics is not vertical.
The best path is the one that ensure that center of mass of the [lifter + barbell] moves in vertical plane.

Makes a huge difference. When the lifter is standing up, the system's center of mass is somewhere near the surface of middle back.
When lifter is squatting down, the center of mass is near the navel. The center of mass moves vertically as well as horizontally!
Therefore the barbell should actually move backwards as we sit down.

Super example!

I'll share another example, many squatters in power/weightlifting are taught the squat hand-less, without holding or grabbing the bar.

The bar is rested across the top of traps and you squat without any weight. This way you are squatting just the bar in a near straight line.
The feet, knees, hips, back and shoulder all align to balance the weight and move it as one.
Then you add weight slowly once you've found your plane.

I reset my squat earlier this year, from scratch, and it has helped a lot.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by alpha1

I am sure the injury that you are referring to can be had even with free weights when you loosen the lower back tightness just for a moment and round the lower back a wee bit. So don't feel too bad about the smith machine decision

Thanks

Originally Posted by Piyadassi

Injuries are part of training. They remind you not to slacken your form especially on exercises such as Deadlift.

Lesson learnt! I hope!!

Originally Posted by fine69

This is the second time I've fallen sick in the last one month. I'm a victim of over-training and need some help.

I usually do about one hour of swimming in the morning followed by weight training at home for 2 major muscle groups everyday.

Try to put more gap between swimming and weight training maybe?

Originally Posted by mandheers

Sorry about the pull, try resting it out and stretch if you feel better.

A very tested method for such stiffness or spasms is Ice-Heat-Ice-Heat-Ice, in that order. Foam rolling also helps, in case any part of the spinal column needs a pop.

Deads are best done with a free bar, the Smith will heavily compromise your body's natural stance, which would be stronger than on the Smith.

Do post your views on DY's program.

Thanks. Yes I've been giving the ice and heat treatment for the past two days.

The DY program is good to follow if you keep in mind the basic principle of explosive last set. But it is difficult to follow without a spotter. What helped me most about the program was the videos for each workout, through visualization Just the image of Mr Yates screaming in your ears was motivation enough!

[fine69]

So here's the routine that I follow.

5:45 AM - Wake up!
7:00 AM - Warm up of 250 mtrs and then 50 mtr lap with medium/high (every alternate lap) intensity with a break of 30 seconds to 2 minutes (max) after every 1 or 2 laps. By the end of the session I'm usually drained. This is all freestyle as I can't do butterfly due to shoulder injury.

Not sure about the total distance I cover as I don't count laps after warming up, just keep gunning it till its 8am.

8:30 AM - Reach home and start Weight training

Weight training schedule is below. All exercises are with dumbbells only. I do 4-5 sets of all exercises with 10-12 reps and by the end of the last set (be it 4th or 5th) I'm totally drained and just cannot do another set. I change weights to make it optimum for every exercise so that I'm exhausted by the 4th-5th set.
Monday - Chest & Triceps
Bench Press on floor
Lying Fly
Straight-Arm Pullover
Triceps Kickback
One-arm triceps extension
Dips
Plank (can manage 1:20 only)

Tuesday - Back & Biceps
Kneeling one-arm row
Wide Row
Dead Lift
Alternate Biceps Curl
Alternate Hammer Curl
Concentration Biceps Curl
Forearm Curl (if that's what its called)

Wednesday - Shoulders & Legs
Shoulder Press
Lateral Raise
Front Raise
Shoulder Shrug
Bent-over one-arm deltoid raise
Squats
Stationary lunges
One-legged toe raise

Thu/Fri/Sat is repeat of Mon/Tue/Wed

However, I haven't been able to manage all 6 days for most of the weeks. Its usually been 4 or 5 days max.

As for food these days
I have a Gatorade during Weight training in case I've started feeling exhausted after my swimming session.
Breakfast - 1 Parantha with one-egg omelette
Lunch - 2 paranthas or rotis with any home cooked veggie, curd and salad
Evening - 1 parantha with 2-egg omelette
Late evening - Fruits (apple usually)
Dinner - 2 rotis with home cooked veggie, curd
Lastly, one glass of hot milk (about 250-300ml) before going to sleep

I usually go to sleep around 12-1230am in the night.

Now the food doesn't look much but if I eat more in breakfast my tummy is full right after lunch and I can't really eat anything more. So I make the breakfast not too big.

EDIT: Sleep definitely looks like an area I can work on.
Secondly, since my office has a decent gym. Would it make sense to get an hour's sleep right after my swimming session and do weight training somewhere in the evening in office? I'd have access to better equipment also.

[CliffHanger]

Originally Posted by fine69

So here's the routine that I follow.

I didn't follow your previous posts as well as some of others' posts. I'm assuming you are working on to build your body to a decent shape and at the same time you want to feel healthy daily and throughout the entire course of a day. Some tips below based on my experience -

* Don't over-train unless you want to get into muscle building of huge proportions. Over-training leads to Lactic acid build up and your system will find it very difficult to remove it leading to a lot of psychological problems as well as illnesses.

* Total 1 hour of workout inclusive of warm-ups or running is enough daily

* Exercise in the evening and exercise 5 days a week

* Monday begin with workouts for legs. The energy you reserved on the weekend will help you tackle the strenuous legs workouts

* Sleep for 7-8 hours daily and drink plenty of water

* See how your hair is reacting to your workouts. Check whether you are prone to hereditary baldness. If yes, you have all the more reason to have a check on your training. Over-training leads to more testosterone generation which in turn can lead to excess DHT production that can shrink your hair follicles leading to hair thinning and eventually hair loss.

Sculpting your physique is a long, time consuming and should be a patient process. There isn't a shortcut to do it in a healthy way and in a short span of time.

Develop patience and if your appearance is having an impact on your self-esteem, sit and find out the root cause, whether it is because you need acceptance, validation, etc.

[Piyadassi]

Originally Posted by fine69

So here's the routine that I follow.

Quick comments: You're sleeping too less, eating too little and exercising too much.

Sleep at least 7-8 hours every day and make up for even longer duration on Saturdays and Sundays.

Diet: I think you can easily double the amount that you consume and stagger them. For example before going out for a swim you can easily have a banana or a banana with a roti. In b/w swim and weight training you can take a banana. Since you don't take chicken you can easily substitute it with boiled chana. You can also include rice. In nutshell have include more variety in your diet.

Exercise: What is your training goal? It seems little haphazard at the moment. If I remember your earlier post you wanted to build muscle (you had said something about your biceps and forearms, if I remember correctly). If that is what it is then there is just too much of cardio.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by Samurai

1000m butterfly!!! Are you joking? That is super athlete level stuff.

Was just a joke.

Originally Posted by fine69

So here's the routine that I follow.

1. Not sure about the total distance I cover as I don't count laps after warming up, just keep gunning it till its 8am.

2. Weight training schedule is below. All exercises are with dumbbells only. I do 4-5 sets of all exercises with 10-12 reps and by the end of the last set (be it 4th or 5th) I'm totally drained and just cannot do another set. I change weights to make it optimum for every exercise so that I'm exhausted by the 4th-5th set.
3. As for food these days

4. I usually go to sleep around 12-1230am in the night.

1. While swimming and during your break between laps are you absolutely out of breath (like you have run 100 m in 10 seconds)? If not, then it is fine. It is a good activity and don't leave it.

2. All right, your routine is typical of a bodybuilding forum kind of routine, and I really don't have much issue with it, BUT do tell me one thing, while completing a set what causes you to stop doing the next rep? Is it that you simply cannot raise the weight no matter how much you will it, or is it because of intense pain of burn in the muscles. This is very important, and most guys are absolutely clueless, but both are very different kind of failures and place very different demands on the body.

3. Food is simply too less. Why? Afraid of putting on fat? But then you forgot the golden rule for a natural body builder: You have to get fat to build muscles and conversely You will lose muscles in order to lose fat! You cannot have big muscles as well as low fat on your natural body ever (no matter what supplements you take or whose dieting advice you follow). This low caloric intake is contributing to the "being drained" feeling.

4. You are sleeping at 1230 am and getting up by 530 am? This is causing your zombie like state throughout the day.
Or perhaps you do require less sleep than others - which would indicate that you have very high metabolism. In this case you should eat ever MOAR!

[mandheers]

Originally Posted by fine69

So here's the routine that I follow.

EDIT: Sleep definitely looks like an area I can work on.
Secondly, since my office has a decent gym. Would it make sense to get an hour's sleep right after my swimming session and do weight training somewhere in the evening in office? I'd have access to better equipment also.

Firstly, the most important bit I'll advice - you need to ease off.
Aim for 3-4 days of weight training a week, you'll benefit from it.

What is your goal? Building, Strength, Fitness? What is your current situation and stats? Age, Height and Weight? Pics will help, although rarely anyone posts pics here.

Why are you using an ages old schedule? I agree with alpha1, this is the most abused and typical forum type schedule.

Today everyone constructs a schedule depending on what they want to work on, for e.g. you mentioned a shoulder injury and you're doing 3 types of raises, one compound and one shrug. That's more than you're doing for your Legs.

4-5 sets using 10-12 reps on all is again not advisable. There are rep ranges like 3, 5, 6, 8, 10, 15, 20 to be worked on too. 1 rep also figures, but I don't recommend that to anyone who doesn't pursue professionally.

I will share my own example, did Strength training with 5x5 for about 8-10 months, then shifted to body-part.

What I follow now is Legs + Biceps, Delts + Triceps, Back, Chest + Abs, on separate days. I take an off after 4 days, sometimes two days off. I also do my cardio away from weight training sessions, mostly evenings; primarily because I train mornings and only have max 1 hour, and I don't like treadmill running. So I go for a Swim or Run, apart from Monsoons when I settle for a Stationary Bike at the gym.

That said, I will retract my earlier statement made in previous post about overtraining; coz you are doing excessive.

That too without any supplementation. In one line- you do more, you eat more; you eat more, you do more. Get a multivitamin + mineral formula, get a protein shake in the day, or at least increase the eggs by double. Protein is what I advice anyone and everyone. Carbs will find their way into your diet, but Protein and Fats need planning.

Listen to your body, it doesn't require a forum to tell you that you are doing so much more than you should be. I may be wrong, depending on your goals.

Our body needs sleep at the end of a tough day, that's recommended as 1/3rd of the day at 8 hours. Why can't you put the same simple math and let your body rest every 4th day?

Cheers!

[fine69]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

Some tips below based on my experience....
-Sculpting your physique is a long, time consuming and should be a patient process. There isn't a shortcut to do it in a healthy way and in a short span of time.

Thanks!!

Originally Posted by Piyadassi

Exercise: What is your training goal? It seems little haphazard at the moment. If I remember your earlier post you wanted to build muscle (you had said something about your biceps and forearms, if I remember correctly). If that is what it is then there is just too much of cardio.

Yeah, I think I can squeeze a banana or two right before breakfast!

As for the goal, well, if I wish to take one step at a time. I wish to get rid of the double chin which I was successfully able to when I did Insanity for about 40 days (hence swimming) and build decent biceps as my arms are really skinny at the moment.

Also, I love swimming so this is something I really wish to continue unless someone tells me that I simply cannot build even average biceps while swimming 4-5 days a week.

Originally Posted by alpha1

1. While swimming and during your break between laps are you absolutely out of breath (like you have run 100 m in 10 seconds)? If not, then it is fine. It is a good activity and don't leave it.

I'm out of breath only when I push really hard which is like 2-3 times in the one hour session. Else I swim at 80-90% intensity only.

Originally Posted by alpha1

2. All right, your routine is typical of a bodybuilding forum kind of routine, and I really don't have much issue with it, BUT do tell me one thing, while completing a set what causes you to stop doing the next rep? Is it that you simply cannot raise the weight no matter how much you will it, or is it because of intense pain of burn in the muscles.

Neither actually. I read that by the end of 4th or 5th set I should have drained all power from that muscle. The burn that you're talking about is rare with me, happens only when I do Legs and at times Biceps, not the case with any other muscle group. So in my case (barring Legs), the reason is that I cannot raise the weight no matter how much I try.

Originally Posted by alpha1

3. Food is simply too less. Why? Afraid of putting on fat? But then you forgot the golden rule for a natural body builder: You have to get fat to build muscles and conversely You will lose muscles in order to lose fat! You cannot have big muscles as well as low fat on your natural body ever (no matter what supplements you take or whose dieting advice you follow). This low caloric intake is contributing to the "being drained" feeling.

You've gone through the diet I take. All paranthas and rotis have decent ghee loaded in them. So I'm not really afraid of fats but the only sources I get it from is ghee or nuts (almonds mainly).

Again, I don't want to overdo fat simply because its against my goal of getting rid of my double chin and belly. However, I picked weight training simultaneously to build better arms (mainly).

Originally Posted by alpha1

4. You are sleeping at 1230 am and getting up by 530 am? This is causing your zombie like state throughout the day.
Or perhaps you do require less sleep than others - which would indicate that you have very high metabolism. In this case you should eat ever MOAR!

I don't really require less sleep. I'm very often found dozing off in meetings or when with other colleagues in office.

Originally Posted by mandheers

Aim for 3-4 days of weight training a week, you'll benefit from it.

I'm an Indian after all. I pay for 6 days worth of access to the pool so why don't I get the maximum return of my expense. While this is one reason, I also love swimming and can do it everyday for the rest of my life (even on Sundays).

Originally Posted by mandheers

What is your goal? Building, Strength, Fitness? What is your current situation and stats? Age, Height and Weight? Pics will help, although rarely anyone posts pics here.

Goal is to simply get rid of my double chin and belly fat first. If possible build better arms while losing weight as my sister keeps on sending awesome T-shirts to me but my skinny biceps ruin the look for me.

I recently turned 30, 5'8" and 63 kgs currently.

Originally Posted by mandheers

That too without any supplementation. In one line- you do more, you eat more; you eat more, you do more. Get a multivitamin + mineral formula, get a protein shake in the day, or at least increase the eggs by double. Protein is what I advice anyone and everyone. Carbs will find their way into your diet, but Protein and Fats need planning.

I agree on the rest part. Probably I need to only do swimming with light intensity on the 4th day and give up weight training completely on that day, makes sense!

The only supplement that I take is Multivate Gold which is like most loaded capsule that I found on vitamins. Reason to skip whey protein or anything else for now is that I wish to see where I get without these powders. I mean spend 6-9 months without them and see for myself how far I can go without additional supplements. Also, with so much of cardio I'm not sure how fruitful having protein powder would be.

Only Pics that I have of my weight gain when I stopped working out.

Mar'14 (4 months after stopping Insanity)



May'14 (With the Double Chin that I hate! See, I can't even smile properly)

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by alpha1

while completing a set what causes you to stop doing the next rep? Is it that you simply cannot raise the weight no matter how much you will it, or is it because of intense pain of burn in the muscles. This is very important, and most guys are absolutely clueless, but both are very different kind of failures and place very different demands on the body.

Can you explain the difference? Till you mentioned, I never paid attention to it while working out. I get burn when doing more reps with less weight and the running out of breath failure when lifting heavy and less reps.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

Can you explain the difference? Till you mentioned, I never paid attention to it while working out. I get burn when doing more reps with less weight and the running out of breath failure when lifting heavy and less reps.

PART1:
I will have to read up the specific bio-chemisty on this, but in essence it is this:
When you are unable to complete one more rep no matter how hard you try (but you don't really get the burn) is when your "fastest twitch" fibres have been fatigued as well as the neurons connected to them are fried (cannot produce the requisite strength of tetanus). Remember in this case:

1. Only the fibres having the highest threshold (force production) have reached failure, if you lower the load you will realize that you can still keep pumping the reps. What percentage of such high threshold fibres would an average person have? Very less.
How can you expect the other lower threshold fibres to grow?

2. You run out of the "nervous juices". In my own case I have seen a high degree of correlation of this with heightened susceptibility to cold/flu.
The recovery of CNS from such activities is considerably longer than the period muscles remain sore.

So how do you get over this? By employing infrequent and low volume stimulation. Which is not the case with the routine Fine69 has posted.
A more suitable approach to use such heavy loads is:
Madcow 5x5
Allpro Beginners
Rippetoe Starting strength
Doggcrapp
EXMGQ

If you google these, you will find that ALL of these employ the following philosophies:
a) do not wait till failure to stop the set
b) do not exercise consecutive days (in other word take at least one day total rest and more if body/mind demands)
c) do not do humongous amount of sets
d) do not add unnecessary stuff to the program
e) sufficient sleep
f) excess calories

The aim in all such programs is to progress with loads. The aim is not to "build muscles". The "build muscles" may result as a side effect. The aim is to make your body (=muscles and CNS) learn how to lift weights with maximum efficiency thus causing an increased momentary strength.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by alpha1

ALL of these employ the following philosophies:
a) do not wait till failure to stop the set
b) do not exercise consecutive days (in other word take at least one day total rest and more if body/mind demands)
c) do not do humongous amount of sets
d) do not add unnecessary stuff to the program
e) sufficient sleep
f) excess calories

Thanks for the detailed reply. I am following all these except e and f.
Sleep needs more self control to put down the mobile or laptop at night.
Excess calories is something I am trying to avoid as I want to loose the belly fat.