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View Poll Results: Do you support the lockdown extension?
Yes 299 47.46%
No 244 38.73%
I'm unsure 87 13.81%
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:42   #1111
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
@TRR, @rdst 1, thank you for sharing your valued inputs and links. It is some relief. The clause of being able to arrest the MD of a company still stands as stated in the Chief Secretary's letter. What they are trying to say is that "We {ie the Govt} retain the right to jail you if we in our judgement deem it justified. But right now as the economy needs to get off the ground out of the goodness of our hearts we wont do it." The unspoken part which every entrepreneur/ Board member worth his salt will understand is that now petty Govt officials who know little about Covid-19 or running factories will spot a new opportunity of rent seeking. Make no mistake of that. Those members who work for the Govt please don't get offended. These are the sad facts of our life.

I don't blame the bureaucrats alone. Some Chief ministers have been stating that they will attack District Commissioners if Covid-19 cases increase in their district. I mean how stupid is that.

This is my interpretation as an investor who has to live with these rules. I am not responding to those who feel otherwise.
Narayan sir.... first let me thank for being a job creator in our economy. I am not one. But I have nothing but respect for your kind, especially the SMEs who breathe life into our social fabric.

Coming back to the subject being discussed, thanks for saying what a bunch of us are thinking. Which business owner will feel motivated to open his or her business given this sword hanging over their head?

I mean, granted that this law was in place even before the Covid crisis and that other countries have similar regulations (OSHA in the US). But the intentions of these laws are to protect employees from unscrupulous and malicious employers through incidents that typically occur due to the employers, and typically infrequently. An example would be forcing an employee to work a dangerous industrial machine or an industrial process. In such instances, the danger and the threat to life are created by the nature of the business in question, and by the ways and means through which the work is actually done.

With Covid, the danger has nothing to do with the employer, or their nature of business, or even their work processes.

So when it is virtually guaranteed that we are all going to encounter the virus as we step out, which employer will be willing to open their doors and risk subjecting themselves to needless scrutiny and possible harassment by the authorities?

I have said it before and I will say it again; we are setting dangerous precedents here wherein we are opening the doors to prosecuting people for things they didn’t do, rather than for what they did do. This is a slippery slope where all of our constitutional rights will go for a toss. There are literally a million reasons to attack individuals, be it people or businesses, in the name of the collective good.

First, force the majority to stay home and give up their lives and livelihoods for the common good. Then go after businesses because someone there tested positive for a pathogen that is already widespread in society; a pathogen that the employers most definitely did not have in hand in creating in the first place.

What’s next? Arresting people for witnessing an accident and not helping the victims? I mean, I am sure that we can come up with some logic that rationalises the common good in such a move based on the fact that the accident occurred on a common road; one on which the viewer/s too were present at the time of the accident.

So where does it stop?

P. S.

In my example, I am fully aware that helping accident victims is the correct and noble thing to do. But, my point is that we cannot, and have no right to, legislate the actual act of helping


Quote:
Originally Posted by Safety is Param View Post
Sir, kindly refer this link from TOI. The headline reads "CEOs won’t be punished if staffers test positive: Govt"

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/75338207.cms

On a separate note, even if this clause exists, how would one prove that the affected employee contracted the virus inside the work premises?
The onus is equally on the business owner and the management to prove that the infection DID NOT occur on their premises.

Put yourself in the position of a factory manager where thousands of people work. People who come from all parts of society and for all places in the nearby area. What is the probability that someone will test positive for Covid soon? Now, imagine the size of the bullets that you will be sweating on a daily basis thinking about this probability.

As it is, you will be worried about your business during these bleak times. That should be your primary worry. Now on top of that, you have to also worry about being scrutinised and possibly arrested for something that you have had no hand in.

Last edited by mohansrides : 24th April 2020 at 11:58.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:44   #1112
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
The clause of being able to arrest the MD of a company still stands as stated in the Chief Secretary's letter. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by m8002? View Post
Why dont the government release a GO explaining this? .
This appears to be a formal communication


https://twitter.com/PIBHomeAffairs/s...714177/photo/1


Quote:
Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
Which business owner will feel motivated to open his or her business?
More than anything else, lack of Demand seems to be the reason. Until the economy opens up at least partially, why will Industry produce something? Today, manufacturer has to bear manpower & some other fixed costs but if they produce something, they will save on these but without final sales happening will have liabilities to pay their vendors as well create additional storage godowns. This is not possible in such a short time. Say, even if Maruti manufacture Cars, where are they going to keep these? So we need to find a quick way to restart clean areas.

Everyone, state & central government realise this, they don't want to lose the gains and will be cautious.

Last edited by Turbanator : 24th April 2020 at 12:01.
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:07   #1113
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
---e. Say, even if Maruti manufacture Cars, where are they going to keep these? ---
The points listed by You are valid and hence Maruti Suzuki decides not to start operations.


Quote:
Maruti not to resume production despite governmentís go-ahead

link
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:30   #1114
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
...More than anything else, lack of Demand seems to be the reason..
You are right. But the reason of lack of demand is a given and is widely known. Also given is the fear of the virus that an employer has to contend with, both in his own mind and in the minds of his employees. So the business community already has it very hard.

My point is that on top of these already horrid obstacles, another bale of straw is now being piled onto the proverbial camel - that of the business owner / management being scrutinised and possibly prosecuted due to Covid 19.
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:40   #1115
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
What they are trying to say is that "We {ie the Govt} retain the right to jail you if we in our judgement deem it justified. But right now as the economy needs to get off the ground out of the goodness of our hearts we wont do it." The unspoken part which every entrepreneur/ Board member worth his salt will understand is that now petty Govt officials who know little about Covid-19 or running factories will spot a new opportunity of rent seeking. Make no mistake of that. Those members who work for the Govt please don't get offended. These are the sad facts of our life.
Only the people who have faced this extortion first hand can appreciate the hidden threat in that statement.
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:49   #1116
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Here in Pune we have 2 (or maybe it is 4 days - no one knows for sure since there is no official communication and it all depends on the local area police) days of 'stricter' lockdown with only milk and medicines allowed to be sold and that too only 10am to 12 noon.

So I set off at 10 to get some medicines for mother and milk. The milk shop was still opening so I got the medicines first and then came back to the milk shop. Now there was a proper queue with everyone wearing masks and maintaining a distance from each other. Now this shop is a mini-market kind where we get everything but the shop owner was only selling milk to people as per the govt order.

Yet 5 mins into the shop opening and along comes a police ertiga. They take the shop owner into the car and zoom off. The reason was that he was selling milk keeping the shop open with all items in view. Police wanted him to sell and display only milk. So his wife and kids then brought out all the milk crates outside the shop, brought down the shutters and then resumed selling the milk.

My view is that with no official or formal communication coming from the authorities, there are lots of gaps available for interpretation. Leave aside the PM not making any interviews (on the other end of the spectrum we have Mr Trump doing daily briefings about himself), although there are daily briefings by the health dept, the situation on ground becomes chaotic due to daily changing rumours which the aam public comes to know only via the news channels and gets scared.

One day its 10-2, the next its 10-12, some times vegetable vendors are allowed, at other times the inspector sitting inside the ertiga threatens to arrest everyone in line along with the vegetable vendor (seen this first hand). What this achieves is that hmany people will now, instead of following a time table and remaining inside as much as possible, will try to get out to fetch essentials at the first opportunity. Earlier when the shops were allowed to be open from 7-5, there was not much of a queue but now everyone needs to get their stuff in those 2 hours, and are also not sure whether tomorrow there will be the same restrictions or not.

Yesterday the Pune ACP released a video stating a few rules which include on the spot fine of 2500, jail time of 6 months for anyone found violating the stay at home orders. He also mentioned that there will be much stricter implementation if still people venture outside - this I think will be now shoot at sight since that is the only level of strict left !

Jokes aside, I support the lockdown but it should have been better managed. Now after a month we have a scared and frustrated janta, a spent police and medical force and screaming media people and we still have a very long way to go.
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Old 24th April 2020, 13:00   #1117
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

^^^^^^
Though I had said i won't respond I am going back on my own word.

Only those on this forum who are business owners will fully appreciate what I am saying. When dealing with the Govt only three things count - (1) What the actual text of the rule/policy/law says. Opinions or news items count for nothing; (2) What 'discretionary' powers have been given to the officer/inspector concerned which he may misuse - and versus that 'discretion'you have little control; (3) The economic or judicial harm he can cause to you/your business that you do not have the ability to absorb or suffer. These three factors decide how a rule will be implemented in practice. On one hand it gives opportunity to dishonest business owners to get away with violations and on the other it makes it difficult for those who wish to be entrepreneurs without breaking the law.

The original clause of the Disaster Management Act states, "......any neglect on any part of the director, manager, secretary or other official also, be deemed to be guilty of that offense and shall be liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly......". Later it talks of imprisonment of the key officials including the Managing Director. This is the law. It stands. It has not been removed. All they have done is to issue an internal clarification within the Govt's four walls that go easy. This is typical Govt whataboutery. Rule is there. Have faith we wont use it. But we can use it if needed.

All of us who have been at the receiving end of Income Tax officials trying to meet their {often unrealistic} targets know what this means.
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Old 24th April 2020, 13:58   #1118
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Default Re: Impact on mental health during the lockdown on employees & family members

It was my daughter's birthday yesterday, so we decided to break all the social distancing and lockdown rules. We invited all her friends to celebrate by being present physically.

Fortunately, all her friends also were fed up & bored and agreed to attend the party. About 20-30 of her friends turned up and we forgot Covid19, social distancing and lockdown related worries for 2-3 hours of family fun.

Just look at the turnout!















































.
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India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020-whatsapp-image-20200423-18.43.34.jpeg  


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Old 24th April 2020, 14:00   #1119
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Our company (I am an employee) has resumed production from yesterday. Management and HR is taking all possible steps to make it work without compromising safety of workers and extensive new guidelines have been created for the workplace. Only necessary staff and workers of production, quality, stores, plant maintenance departments have been asked to come to office. Rest all will continue to work from home. As of now permission has been granted for about 500 personnel and double shift operation. Few overly eager employees who turned up at company without requirement, were turned back from main gate.
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Old 24th April 2020, 14:52   #1120
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Our company (I am an employee) has resumed production from yesterday.
Isnít Gurgoan declared as RedZone? Or they are allowing selectively ? Are you aware where is one supposed to apply.
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Old 24th April 2020, 15:47   #1121
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Guys the water filter i use might use up its cartridge very shortly.

Got me wondering why the spare cartridge does not come up among essentials listed in Amazon these days. Hair trimmers were missing from the list in the Initial days but looks like Amazon decided to cash in on the non availability of barbers by listing them now.

Not that listing would be useful to me. They still have not opened deliveries for my town. But still curious why water filters or their cartridges wont be essential. At least they could allow pre-orders for those.
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Old 24th April 2020, 16:12   #1122
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Isnít Gurgoan declared as RedZone? Or they are allowing selectively ? Are you aware where is one supposed to apply.
Plant is in rural area and not under Gurgaon administration, might be the reason. What I could gather today from our review meeting today is that they have set up help desks in municipal corporation/ collector's office (based on number of employees seeking permission to resume work eg. Upto 50 employees, 50-200, 200 and above etc.) and work permits are granted after review of application. Faridabad is doing this for sure at MCF complex. Checked with my friend for Gurgaon after reading your post, it is still not open. His factory is based in Udyog Vihar, chances are only after 3rd of May if relaxations are provided.
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Old 24th April 2020, 16:25   #1123
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Looks even crematoriums are facing a recession.

It's very surprising for us," said Shruthi Reddy, chief executive officer of Anthyesti Funeral Services, which operates in Kolkata and Bengaluru. The company handled about five jobs a day in January but has only had about three a day this month. "We've declared employee pay cuts if revenue falls below a threshold," Reddy said.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/covi...home-topscroll
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Old 24th April 2020, 17:09   #1124
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

People are not listening !

Tamil Nadu Declares Intense Lockdown In Chennai, 4 Other Cities

https://www.ndtv.com/tamil-nadu-news...cities-2217613
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Old 24th April 2020, 17:50   #1125
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by luvDriving View Post
Here in Pune we have 2 (or maybe it is 4 days - no one knows for sure since there is no official communication and it all depends on the local area police) days of 'stricter' lockdown with only milk and medicines allowed to be sold and that too only 10am to 12 noon.

Jokes aside, I support the lockdown but it should have been better managed. Now after a month we have a scared and frustrated janta, a spent police and medical force and screaming media people and we still have a very long way to go.
Here in India, the pregnancy rule applies. You are either pregnant or not. Cannot be half-pregnant.

Or in other words, open up everything or close everything (or almost). Any of these half measures like luvDriving has described in the above post about limited timings, some products sold, some shops open etc means we will discuss here and argue with cops on the streets until the next virus hits us!.
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