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View Poll Results: Do you support the lockdown extension?
Yes 299 47.46%
No 244 38.73%
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Old 30th April 2020, 14:37   #1306
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post

Leaving aside the debate that the lockdown is good or bad for a moment. COVID-19 probably is a not a blockbuster to get into the top-ten fatal disease, but this super mild illness have already claimed lives of 100K+ lives globally. TB may kill in millions, but that doesnít diminish the seriousness of this pandemic.
The TB debate gives perspective. TB is a big killer, at least in lot of developing countries, and it kills lots of people every year. Corona, on the other hand, will probably kill lot of people this year but from next year onwards I don't think it will be a concern at all. It'll be no worse than flu that doesn't stop the world.
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Old 30th April 2020, 14:38   #1307
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
If we donít open the lockdown there will be even more hell to pay. Soon, you will have to work for free on the frontlines. There will be no money for salaries for policemen and doctors and others who are working out there.
We are working for free sir.

Nevertheless, I do not want to get drawn into this debate because I know the ground realities and there is no point discussing this on a forum.
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Old 30th April 2020, 14:42   #1308
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
Open up the lockdown prematurely and there will be hell to pay.
Please tell us why are the numbers rising when we are under lockdown? And what’s the guarantee that these numbers won’t rise if we continue for 5 more weeks?

You being a front line activists, I will need better answer over the usual like people are not staying at home or not following the instructions of the Government.

I was passing by a Gurdwara Sahib yesterday where they are having langar every evening outside and the queue was like anything. Am sure you must have seen even worst things.

What do you propose to take care of the people who don’t have any work or money?

I am pained that such basic questions were not asked by our politicians before implementing this Jhatka lockdown

Last edited by Turbanator : 30th April 2020 at 14:44.
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Old 30th April 2020, 14:44   #1309
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl View Post
We are working for free sir.

Nevertheless, I do not want to get drawn into this debate because I know the ground realities and there is no point discussing this on a forum.
You have my gratitude. THANK YOU for your hard work. No question.

But the point here is that the ground realities that you know so well are one side of the coin. The problem is that this disease is being discussed in the public domain ONLY through the lens of the realities that you and your team know.

There is a perfectly valid reality on the other side of the coin. Unfortunately, my team is dealing first hand with that other side reality; and so are crores of other people. And until now, no one is talking about that side of the coin; when a lot of damage has already been done.
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Old 30th April 2020, 15:09   #1310
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
We have completely lost perspective in tackling this matter. What no one seems to remember is that it is a type of flu. Yes, it is more dangerous than the flu and might be more contagious to some extent but it is a virus similar to the flu and common cold viruses. We have to treat it with more fear and caution as it might be more dangerous but the comparison to the flu virus provides much needed perspective. We have all seen people with the flu in our offices, extended families and public spaces. If we wanted to stay safe, we kept a little away from them, didn't hug them and perhaps didn't share food or drink with them. However, we didn't start worrying about whether we needed to stay 3 feet away or if 6 feet were enough or should it be 10 feet? We didn't start worrying about how long the virus stays on surfaces and become paranoid that even days later we could get infected from receiving a parcel or opening a door. We never thought we should seal an area of 3 kms around every case of flu as a containment zone. We didn't start worrying how many hours the breath of a patient would stay floating around in the air. We obviously never shut down an entire city or country. We didn't go around spraying disinfectant on roads to combat the flu. All this is not stated to belittle the danger of the coronavirus but to provide some perspective.

All this hysteria has led to lockdowns and panic. All we need to do is keep some distance, wear a mask when close to others, wash our hands before touching our faces and understand that life has to go on. I am astounded that people have willingly given up their liberty without protest or even discussion.
As I stated earlier, apart from losing perspective over how this virus spreads, everyone has suddenly become so paranoid and risk averse. The same people who never wear a helmet or seatbelt, never worry about holding their child in their arms, never think of safety in the work place, a country where it is common to have open manholes and naked wires in the middle of busy streets and now no one wants to take the most minuscule risk. Why do people go on cross country drives even on bad roads to Laddakh? Obviously it is risky. After all 150k people die from traffic accidents each year and millions are injured. Why not watch it in HD or 4k safely at home? Why do we go drive to a movie or restaurant or a mall? We could have an accident, someone could rob us and so on. Why not be safe and watch at home or order food at home? Do we worry about each intersection on our route and devise plans for each contingency like we are trying to do with this virus? No, we either donít care and put 5 kids on a bike or at best buy the safest car and drive safely. In fact, most people never even obey the speed limit but now canít take the slightest risk suddenly. Nothing is without risk. If we have roads, some people will die. Would everyone here agree on a complete ban on private vehicles as public transport is safer? Or do we try to miimise the risks and carry on? The same has to apply to this ill conceived lockdown.
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Old 30th April 2020, 15:36   #1311
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli View Post
Thus spake Mr.N.R.Narayana Murthy :

"When you look at 9 million people dying naturally, and when you compare it with the death of 1,000 people in past two months, obviously it is not as much as a panic we think it is......."
Contrary to the purported notion that it is the poor who has to lose more because of the lock-down, it is the rich businessmen who see their wealth getting evaporated. Murthy, I guess is better placed, but for the SMEs whose wealth is dependent on the "poor" and "middle class" working in their factories, their loss is much more. All the sob stories about poor suffering are promoted by such people.
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TB may kill in millions, but that doesnít diminish the seriousness of this pandemic.
A couple of months ago when it had killed a 100 people, they said: "its just like common cold". Then when a 1000 people died, it changed to: "it is just like seasonal flu, nothing more". Now, it is being compared to TB. Next week/month it would be, "at least it is not worse than plague". This kind of narrative building will continue.
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Old 30th April 2020, 15:38   #1312
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
If we have roads, some people will die. Would everyone here agree on a complete ban on private vehicles as public transport is safer? Or do we try to miimise the risks and carry on? The same has to apply to this ill conceived lockdown.
Just to summarize.

Precautions are taken for probable dangers. Example- Wearing a helmet.
Here we have stopped riding bikes.

Activities are halted only for inevitable dangers. Like a typhoon!. In that case, we don't wear a helmet and take the bike out. Just stop the activity.
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Old 30th April 2020, 16:02   #1313
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Contrary to the purported notion that it is the poor who has to lose more because of the lock-down, it is the rich businessmen who see their wealth getting evaporated. Murthy, I guess is better placed, but for the SMEs whose wealth is dependent on the "poor" and "middle class" working in their factories, their loss is much more.
You are joking right? Wealth erosion is a greater problem vis-a-vis people not getting food and not getting access to their very basic lives? Is that what you are saying?

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
All the sob stories about poor suffering are promoted by such people.
And you know this for a fact how? For the record, I have no one working for me and I am still concerned about the poor. Please see this article. This statement is from the UN, the same UN of which the WHO is a part. Is this article also propaganda by wealthy people?


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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
A couple of months ago when it had killed a 100 people, they said: "its just like common cold". Then when a 1000 people died, it changed to: "it is just like seasonal flu, nothing more". Now, it is being compared to TB. Next week/month it would be, "at least it is not worse than plague". This kind of narrative building will continue.
What are you talking about? What narrative building? The government is on your side of the argument. So, who is building a narrative that is having any effect?

In any case, what is your recommendation? That we remain locked down forever?
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Old 30th April 2020, 16:48   #1314
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
In any case, what is your recommendation? That we remain locked down forever?
I have a curiosity, more from my own safety point of view. Are you really confident of going out and still being safe? I am definitely not knowledgeable to comment on what is good for the country. But I am not confident of being able to go out, return home and yet not infect the vulnerable in my family. Are you confident? If yes then what are the ways you would follow to safeguard yourself?
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Old 30th April 2020, 16:58   #1315
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by mohansrides View Post
In any case, what is your recommendation? That we remain locked down forever?
How do I know? I trust the PM and his advisors would take the right decision. Am just opposing the narrative that the poor is somehow doomed by a 5 week lock-down. Or a couple of months of lock-down if this gets extended. As I see, the "benevolent" rich seems to be more worried about them than the poor themselves.

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
I have a curiosity, more from my own safety point of view. Are you really confident of going out and still being safe? I am definitely not knowledgeable to comment on what is good for the country. But I am not confident of being able to go out, return home and yet not infect the vulnerable in my family. Are you confident? If yes then what are the ways you would follow to safeguard yourself?
The poor would suffer more if they lose their (often) sole bread winner of the family. It is the poor who is going to commute in buses and trains to work and get infected. The rich will stay at home and be safe anyway.

Last edited by civic-sense : 30th April 2020 at 17:01.
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Old 30th April 2020, 17:09   #1316
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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As I see, the "benevolent" rich seems to be more worried about them than the poor themselves.
How would you know this? Have you actually talked to the poor out there stuck in quarantine camps and in their cramped quarters and heard from them that their life is a total breeze in this lockdown? Or do you expect them to express their views by first voting against the lockdown on this thread on Team BHP, and then by writing an illuminating post here about their troubles; in the absence of both of which you will conclude that they are not worried at all?

A couple of months of lockdown without access to their livelihoods will not affect the poor at all? Really? Is that what you are saying? Wow, I really have some questions for you which I will simply not write here in the interest of decency. Let us leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
I have a curiosity, more from my own safety point of view. Are you really confident of going out and still being safe? I am definitely not knowledgeable to comment on what is good for the country. But I am not confident of being able to go out, return home and yet not infect the vulnerable in my family. Are you confident? If yes then what are the ways you would follow to safeguard yourself?
I will wash my hands frequently, wear a mask, and avoid crowds where possible. Other than this, there really isn't much I can do. More than anything, I simply will not let the virus remain in my thoughts. See this post.

Last edited by mohansrides : 30th April 2020 at 17:16.
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Old 30th April 2020, 17:38   #1317
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Contrary to the purported notion that it is the poor who has to lose more because of the lock-down, it is the rich businessmen who see their wealth getting evaporated. Murthy, I guess is better placed, but for the SMEs whose wealth is dependent on the "poor" and "middle class" working in their factories, their loss is much more.
Rich businessmen might be able to bounce back from any loss they incur. I am not sure if the middle class or economically weaker sections of society will be alive to bounce back.

At least some of those who just climbed out of poverty will be falling back into it now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
All the sob stories about poor suffering are promoted by such people.
Here is some more propoganda for you sir. Perhaps it will give you some more material for your next post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
A couple of months ago when it had killed a 100 people, they said: "its just like common cold". Then when a 1000 people died, it changed to: "it is just like seasonal flu, nothing more". Now, it is being compared to TB. Next week/month it would be, "at least it is not worse than plague". This kind of narrative building will continue.
The final impact of this disease will not be known till it runs it's course. There will ofcourse be people who play it off as nothing serious. But there is a difference between those idiots and members here who have come to understand that this thing is here to stay with us and we would have to adjust till a vaccine/cure is found.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
..Am just opposing the narrative that the poor is somehow doomed by a 5 week lock-down. Or a couple of months of lock-down if this gets extended. As I see, the "benevolent" rich seems to be more worried about them than the poor themselves.
You see the view point of the rich because they have a platform to speak out. I am sure you have not risked your life to reach out to a multitude of people who are struggling economically just to get an idea if they are doomed or not.

There are already members here who work in social welfare and doctor themselves cautioning against extending this lockdown. Perhaps, you can try and understand their view point.

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
The poor would suffer more if lose their (often) sole bread winner of the family. It is the poor who is going to commute in buses and trains to work and get infected. The rich will stay at home and be safe anyway.
Try telling this to that Bread winner who just wants to start earning something to feed his family. He will ask you to keep your opinions to yourself.

People are not going to observe social distancing when they have nothing to eat.

Note: I supported this lockdown and still think that it was the right thing to do (whether the government actually made use of the time they had by scaling up medical infrastructure is what I am worried about now).

As someone who works in IT i have been able to continue working. Infact, I have been taking technical interviews and will soon see an additional developer join my team.

So before anyone thinks otherwise, I am assured of a job for the next few months. But I feel the lockdown should be lifted simply because I don't want to wait till I am personally effected to grow a conscience.

Ending with a Martin NiemŲller quote which was not meant for an economic crisis but the spirit of it should apply in this case:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak for me.

Last edited by Eddy : 30th April 2020 at 20:18. Reason: Removed offensive content.
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Old 30th April 2020, 17:53   #1318
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

Overwhelmed doctors and nurses in Italy were forced to choose who gets to have ventilator support (and thus, to choose who lives or dies). The situation became nerve-wracking there. Medical systems can get overwhelmed in a similar manner elsewhere.

Besides, I'd shared news from a province in Italy where army trucks had to be brought in to mass-cremate scores of dead COVID19 victims. Their kin received the ashes later on. The local crematorium couldn't handle that many dead all at once and hence the army stepped in.

I guess other countries are trying to prevent these outcomes with this lockdown.

I am glad I am not the ruler of any country in this time. What kind of choices are these to make? To let people get infected or die en masse or to let the economy crumble and have the unemployed line up for free soup?
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Old 30th April 2020, 18:01   #1319
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Everything will pick up.
Businesses will revive.

But we have to be sure there are people left to pick up the pieces.

The lockdown is to ensure prevention is the best cure.
If the docs and medical infrastructure is so overwhelmed now, imagine without the lockdown.
The rich and powerful,would throw money and use power to get treated.
Who would be left, to treat the middle class or the poor?
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Old 30th April 2020, 18:16   #1320
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Default re: India on full lockdown. Edit: Now extended with relaxations till June 30, 2020

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Originally Posted by neofromcapone View Post
Everything will pick up.
Businesses will revive.

But we have to be sure there are people left to pick up the pieces.

The lockdown is to ensure prevention is the best cure.
If the docs and medical infrastructure is so overwhelmed now, imagine without the lockdown.
The rich and powerful,would throw money and use power to get treated.
Who would be left, to treat the middle class or the poor?
Very poignant picture. I would suggest to the Nay sayers to talk to a few people on the street. Take courage and walk out and talk to the daily wage earner. For him or her, it is a matter of feeding 2/3/4 mouths during lockdown. The money that Govt is supposed to have given has not reached him. He cannot work, cannot earn, cannot move out and has irate voices screaming at him every day. In that situation, he does not bother about diseases. He is bothered about the Now. I have spent hours in the last 6 weeks talking to such people, offering succor wherever possible and it is really heart breaking. I have heard of people selling of their prized possession for a meal, selling themselves and their loved ones if it can reduce the burden, talking about suicides. It is not a figment of one's imagination.

True everything will pick up. But remember who will be there to help make it recover.

This is what i would call as a Devil's Alternative. Death of a few thousand vs death and degradation of a few million. Yes, I have now said it. Please throw your bricks at me. I am willing to take it. But i have had enough of this situation. I am numb listening to the stories and i am sure once you go out and hear the stories you too will be.

Last edited by subraiyr : 30th April 2020 at 18:18. Reason: spelling error
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