[SoumenD]

Originally Posted by petrol_power

How is the current scenario in immigrating to a foreign land help in making some quick money? ...

So my doubt is that does it make any sense for a family to move to Australia/foreign land, if the intention is to make lots of money without compromising decent standard of living (decent accomodation, car and trips).

If quick money is what you are looking at, I would say its possible only if you manage a contractual job on top of your wife's permanent one. If you are to depend on salaries provided by Indian services firms forget making big money anytime soon.

I was in Adelaide(much cheaper) for around 2 years(2015 & 2016) as a bachelor and trust me the only way people used to make money in my project is by sharing accommodation, being stingy in expenses, travelling home only once in 1.5-2 years etc. I couldn't do those and hence ended up saving zilch. Used to stay in a studio apartment alone in the CBD(usually rent was equal to 2BHKs in the suburbs). Traveled home(kolkata/bangalore) once every 6 months, am a smoker(ciggs are most expensive there) and weekends usually in the pubs. Had a blast as you can see but not much monetary savings. So happily returned once I got hitched.

However if you manage to secure a contractual job, thats great way of making good money. Depends on your technology. SAP folks usually used to start with 600-800$/day in their 1st job itself

Australia as a whole is an expensive place to stay and sydney is the costliest among all the cities there. But yeah quality of food and air is awesome plus you can drive nice cars on great roads

[basilmabraham]

Originally Posted by SoumenD

If quick money is what you are looking at, I would say its possible only if you manage a contractual job on top of your wife's permanent one. If you are to depend on salaries provided by Indian services firms forget making big money anytime soon.

However if you manage to secure a contractual job, thats great way of making good money. Depends on your technology. SAP folks usually used to start with 600-800$/day in their 1st job itself

Australia as a whole is an expensive place to stay and sydney is the costliest among all the cities there. But yeah quality of food and air is awesome plus you can drive nice cars on great roads

Rightly said. Permanent salaried jobs may not allow you to make quick money. Also, with all due respect, stay away from Indian service companies as much as possible. Contract jobs are paying much more than what you mentioned, at least in Sydney. $700+ per day is easily achievable for a new migrant Business Analyst or Developer. People will talk about job security in contracting, but which permanent role is secure these days. You just have to play your cards right. This gives you the option to allow your partner to stay at home or work part time, so that there is enough time for the family and kids.

[sgiitk]

I am looking forward to the day when Emigrating has Immigrating from ... added to it. As per a survey of Korea once 'real' salary crosses 30-50% of the west emigration drops precipitously. I think we are approaching that threshold.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I am looking forward to the day when Emigrating has Immigrating from ... added to it. As per a survey of Korea once 'real' salary crosses 30-50% of the west emigration drops precipitously. I think we are approaching that threshold.

Not that I have even half a brain; but are you referring to reverse brain drain?
I tried to bring a few points here:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...ing-india.html

Or you are mentioning people of non Indian origin immigrating to India from, say Europe?

Edit: At the current stage of my career, the money part is not that much higher in some other countries than what I get here. It is higher, but not high enough to completely base a move around that. It only makes sense if added topics like long term benefits/ infrastructure come into play. In short, it is not lucrative enough to move only for the money. Especially considering the possible growth opportunities here.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I am looking forward to the day when Emigrating has Immigrating from ... added to it. As per a survey of Korea once 'real' salary crosses 30-50% of the west emigration drops precipitously. I think we are approaching that threshold.

Very well said. I am confident in 25 years this too will happen. As an employer of Indians & Europeans and Americans I can already see that at the top managerial tier of my business a British draws say GBP175,000 [~$235,000] and his Indian equivalent in India draws INR 110 lakhs [~$170,00]. And this in a humble brick & mortar shop. After PPP the Indian actually earns more in a way. At the middle to lower levels the gap suddenly widens a lot. But at the top tier we are no longer a low resource cost country.

[avisidhu]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I am looking forward to the day when Emigrating has Immigrating from ... added to it. As per a survey of Korea once 'real' salary crosses 30-50% of the west emigration drops precipitously. I think we are approaching that threshold.

Purely in terms of PPP, a lot of salaried professionals have already crossed that threshold. If you don't have any house/car related mortgages, a salary of 80-90K per month plus is very comfortable, depending on one's lifestyle of course. If both spouses are working, then it's a fairly easy number to achieve even with EMIs.

I guess this theory assumes that the quality of life back home is not below par. This unfortunately is clearly not the case with India. And things are only getting worse specially in Metros. And without getting political, have to add that our social fabric is also fraying steadily. Those born in 80s or earlier should be easily able to spot the trends. All these factors don't give me much hope that things will be any better in future. I say this as someone who's resisted all attempts by immediate family to coax me to settle abroad, and rather chose to stay back in India.

[pedrolourenco]

Originally Posted by avisidhu

Purely in terms of PPP, a lot of salaried professionals have already crossed that threshold. If you don't have any house/car related mortgages, a salary of 80-90K per month plus is very comfortable, depending on one's lifestyle of course. If both spouses are working, then it's a fairly easy number to achieve even with EMIs.

I guess this theory assumes that the quality of life back home is not below par. This unfortunately is clearly not the case with India. And things are only getting worse specially in Metros. And without getting political, have to add that our social fabric is also fraying steadily. Those born in 80s or earlier should be easily able to spot the trends. All these factors don't give me much hope that things will be any better in future. I say this as someone who's resisted all attempts by immediate family to coax me to settle abroad, and rather chose to stay back in India.

Pretty much my thinking too. With my current job at sea and living in India when on leave, the salary is good and I can have a pretty good lifestyle. The only reason I may consider settling abroad is the better quality of life. Something that is not possible in India and will probably not be possible for many years to come. And as you have rightly pointed out, things are only getting worse.

[V.Narayan]

Dear Folks, label this the rant of a soon to be old man but permit me to voice it. This thread has a lot of very useful information on migrating to western countries. It is a mine of data and perspectives for folks who are inclined to migrate for a short while or permanently. The sheer volume of posts is an indication of how important it is to some.

If you are inclined so and believe it betters your chances for a superior life then by all means do so. You are fortunate to have been educated in a country whose talent is now recognized in many parts of the world. But please don’t use this thread to run down India or what you perceive to be its shortfalls. For some superior municipal services and cleaner streets is more important; for others status in society and being close to their ageing parents is more important. For some the lure of more money is more important; for others earning well in India is also possible without cheating. I notice among many Indians who settle abroad a constant rant about India. Why? I often ask my relatives in USA/Canada why they feel the need to spit on India when they don’t live here or pay taxes here.

Does India have its short comings - yes it does -as does every other country other than Shangrila. Is making it successful easy here - tougher than most western countries to get to a base standard of living; beyond that the environment everywhere is very competitive. Will we be happier humans in a foreign country - it all depends on your inclination and priorities - happy people are happy anywhere. Will a western country provide superior municipal services - yes surely it would. Will you be able to look after your parents better if you stayed in India - probably yes.

I probably had more and easier opportunity to 'migrate' than most employed professionals because my business has well established operations in some of these countries. And at one point my wife and I wondered. It was easy peasy for me to simply shift a part of my head office to a Dubai or Ireland or UK and become a low tax NRI. But a lot of factors were weighed in - care for parents, environment we wanted our children to grow up in, our own assessment of our status in society, a nationalistic pulse and the comforts you can buy in India if you earn well all tilted the balance to staying put.

We should migrate if we wish to. But we don’t need to run down India to justify migrating.

[ritz3645]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

.

Great explanation Sir.

Some of my additional points in random order.

• In India we are North/South/East/West Indian but to a person from developed world, we are well East Asian or B__wn.
• Recreational drug or weed is more common and a part of society in West.
• It takes ages to fit in the society.
• Substance abuse is less in India, while Abroad everyone has their own poison.
• A high quality decent Family life and upbringing is only available to top few brackets of the pyramid.
• People are very hardworking, heck even a women of a developed world is twice hardworking than a normal guy in India. I have seen women's at wood manufacturing plant, or driving fork lift.
• To start with and immigrant is inferior to a normal high school diploma holder citizen, and it affects choice of job opportunity.
• We in India have our own living areas, same is a reality abroad.
• USA was called a Melting pot as people from all background came in to gel together and become one. But the duration of acclimatisation can span generations for some.

This post is not to offend any or give any racial color by word's. But to help and make aware the reality or life cycle of immigration. Also I think a well informed individual is more equipped to succeed, in his/her pursuit.

Finally Who dares, wins, period.


Mods : Pardon if anything is found offensive and I will accept your decision completely.

[Jr Godzilla]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

We should migrate if we wish to. But we don’t need to run down India to justify migrating.

For me it was realities which made me re-think.

I was out from 1991 to 2009 in the Middle East (UAE & Bahrain). I worked for Local, Brit, American & Dutch managed companies.
Was in a good financial position (not filthy rich).

Wife contemplated we move to India and get settled. I had a VERY VERY hard time to convince myself. I was at a nice position from 2005 onward, with a fully flexible work timing. I never worked the 48 hour week. At the most I was working, (max. 18 hours a week = full time paid 48 hr. week), would drop / pick wife to work & kid to school.
"Ek dum set life, ek number", as they say it in India.
Finally agreed to move back to India.

Moved to my new flat, house set-up was a nightmare. I was used to the call n fix method, and Trust with money given for works to be carried out. Well, it did not work for me with my soft tongue, was cheated many a time and learnt some bitter lessons. My sister was given the task and things were all sorted within 2 weeks.

Got hired for my first job at an IT company in Magarpatta, Pune area. Now this was a big change in how you are treated. The Management just lacks all courtesy, respect to a fellow staff member. The HR is just showbiz.

On day 1, I was thinking, Man what am I doing here? I was cussing myself. Abroad as an expatriate I was treated with dignity, respect and received so many "Thank You's" for so many trivial tasks.
I was thinking, can we ever be polite to each other, at least at work.

Well I slowly started to get along, releasing my anger on the DUMBBELL's in my home gym. I could do 90lb dumbbell flies with rage, teeth grinding with vengeance.

I do a health check every year and noticed my Blood pressure levels were rising 100 / 150 in 2012, I was getting agitated at small issues and was not relaxed. The time I went on holidays to the beach (Goa, Dive Agar, Ladgar etc) seemed to be the best.

India is a good & yes INCREDIBLE, place to be, BUT ONE SHOULD HAVE A HUGE BANK BALANCE ATLEAST 200M, AND NEVER WORK FOR ANY "IT" COMPANY THAT IS LOCALLY MANAGED.

Finally after 6.5 yrs (79 months) I moved out.
Now in UK and back to a stress free life. Family happy. All happy
Health 78 / 120
pulse 68

Ohhh yes the "Thank you's" have started pouring in.
No stress
and Aaahhhh!! I'm now enjoying.

I never rant that India is this and is that. Its a Very bad thing to say especially when you are born, educated and lived for so many years.

This is my personal experience.

Cheers

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

We should migrate if we wish to. But we don’t need to run down India to justify migrating.

You could as well ask the clouds to stop moving.

Check this post for a sample.

I lived in USA for 9 years before moving back to India in 2004. Then I was part of a Internet forum called R2I Forum (Return2India) for 5 years. About 90% of that forum consisted of NRIs who claimed they would return to India if conditions were similar to their current country. So they spent their time on that forum pointing out every single negative aspect of India, which is stopping them from returning.

Originally Posted by Jr Godzilla

Ohhh yes the "Thank you's" have started pouring in.

You moved back abroad to get respect. I moved back to India for the same reason. There was no way I could get white privilege while living in US, but I can enjoy the equivalent in India.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by ritz3645

Some of my additional points in random order.[*]In India we are North/South/East/West Indian but to a person from developed world, we are well East Asian or B__wn.

The negative attitude varies. If you migrate to California or Sydney or Boston you live in a very cosmopolitan and liberal world where your skin colour matters less and those worlds can be very enjoyable. Just like South Bombay or Lutyens Delhi is different from say Bilaspur (no disrespect to folks from there) same way the west too is not monolithic. But yes if you migrate to Leeds or Minnesota then the environment will need a lot more adjusting.

[*]Substance abuse is less in India, while Abroad everyone has their own poison.[*]Recreational drug or weed is more common and a part of society in West.

Very hard to say without data. Given that the West also includes New Zealand, Sweden, Germany, Netherlands, Portugal and many other relatively clean societies I would be more circumspect. Can't paint them with one brush.

[*]It takes ages to fit in the society.[*]USA was called a Melting pot as people from all background came in to gel together and become one. But the duration of acclimatization can span generations for some.

Agree, It takes more than a generation to really settle in. The second generation is usually more comfortable.

Originally Posted by Jr Godzilla

For me it was realities which made me re-think.

For the benefit of all on this thread could we request you to share those realities and thoughts (pros and cons)

I was out from 1991 to 2009 in the Middle East (UAE & Bahrain). I worked for Local, Brit, American & Dutch managed companies.
Was in a good financial position (not filthy rich).

Interestingly the tendency to vent against India is largely missing from those who migrate to the Middle East. Maybe they maintain closer links to home; maybe they know that one day in 10 or 20 years they will come back. The NRI's in the Middle East from the humble carpenter to the doctor were for 25 years (1975 to 2000) the backbone of our forex earnings of which you are one. Kudos.

Wife contemplated we move to India and get settled. I had a VERY VERY hard time to convince myself. I was at a nice position from 2005 onward, with a fully flexible work timing. I never worked the 48 hour week. At the most I was working, (max. 18 hours a week = full time paid 48 hr. week), would drop / pick wife to work & kid to school.
"Ek dum set life, ek number", as they say it in India.
Finally agreed to move back to India.

Brother if I had a job that paid me a full wage for doing 18 hours of work I will settle in Congo even!! Please send me your ex-employers ID

Moved to my new flat, house set-up was a nightmare. I was used to the call n fix method, and Trust with money given for works to be carried out. Well, it did not work for me with my soft tongue, was cheated many a time and learnt some bitter lessons. My sister was given the task and things were all sorted within 2 weeks.

I notice many NRI returnees facing this challenge. It is true these back-up services are not that well organized but more than that it is that we are no longer wired into how the system works. Most people who migrate to the West for the first time and do so with family also struggle, for a year or two, with figuring out the basics over there. Many are not candid enough to admit it though. If you go as a young bachelor then settling in is easier.

India is a good & yes INCREDIBLE, place to be, BUT ONE SHOULD HAVE A HUGE BANK BALANCE ATLEAST 200M, AND NEVER WORK FOR ANY "IT" COMPANY THAT IS LOCALLY MANAGED.

Allow me to disagree. It is attitude that makes you happy or dis-satisfied not the bank balance. Yes if you are grinding in economic hardships then that is different. But it is easier to live a comfortable life with a decent social position and a work life balance in India at a family income of Rs 1.5 lakhs a month than it is to do the same in say UK at GBP 3500 a month (ie twice the amount). The superior municipal and infrastructure services in the West however improve the basic quality of 'hassle factor' for the lower and lower-middle economic sections of society

Finally after 6.5 yrs (79 months) I moved out.

You should do what works for you and your family. For some settling in UK works for others settling in Dehradun works better. What is better is unique to each family.

I never rant that India is this and is that. Its a Very bad thing to say especially when you are born, educated and lived for so many years.

Thank you. Love to hear that. Wish your tribe grows.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Dear Folks, label this the rant of a soon to be old man but permit me to voice it. This thread has a lot of very useful information on migrating to western countries. It is a mine of data and perspectives for folks who are inclined to migrate for a short while or permanently. The sheer volume of posts is an indication of how important it is to some.
We should migrate if we wish to. But we don’t need to run down India to justify migrating.

The objective of this post and post #1133 is not to comment on whether migrating is better or vice versa. Each of India's 25 crore family units are in a unique position. Just trying to say migrate if that suits you just please don't do it on the back of a rant against your country/ex-country. It is the education, social milieu, reputation of work ethics, value systems that India & our society has created that makes you an attractive asset for the West in the first place. If it weren't for what India has given to its migrant ex-citizens they would be competing with the Syrians and Libyans who also aspire to reach the west by sailing in a boat.

Allow me to share a perspective different from that of a migrant seeking a job. I spent two stints in the West, as a part of setting up my business, of about 8 to 9 months each. Went without my family as the aim was to get my branches up and running and not settling down there. I went there as an investor and employment creator and not as a job seeker. I hired/still hire only locals and don't import managers from India. My teams are good hard working folks and many many have been with me for several years and we share a healthy professional relationship. One neat thing about Western employees is that they are stable and don't job hop like my employees in India & China. Till this day there is no social integration whatsoever even though I am their boss. They prefer it that way and now I am used to it too and we co-exist in cheerful equilibrium. In case of my employees in China by the second business visit I was dining in their homes with them figuring out what to serve a vegetarian. I wonder how well integrated a job seeker can become in a Western society. Please share your perspectives & experiences for the benefit of all.

[joe1980]

I came across this news article about migration:

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/as-t...ome-topstories

Is this a temporary trend? I guess Canada is not like the USA with tons and tons of opportunities and I guess the bucket will be filled up very quickly or what do you think?

[jacobvarughese]

Alright, guys- seems like I indirectly stirred a hornet's nest here on migration

On a slightly related note, I'm overwhelmed by the amount of private messages that I receive now on Canadian immigration after my post a couple of weeks ago- seems like there are a number of us who wish to get out of here.

Only piece of advice is this: Please do conduct your due diligence prior to embarking on this life-changing decision.

P.S- I'm still amenable to requests for more information on Canadian immigration should you need to.

[HKap]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

We should migrate if we wish to. But we don’t need to run down India to justify migrating.

/begin rant

I agree 100%. Having lived in multiple cities but being born, raised, educated and worked for 10 years in India, I can tell you that it's a great place (duh). There are pros and cons to both. Yes the weather in some of the western countries is extreme but then what would you say to a child breathing the air in Delhi? Would you rather be all bundled up in warm clothes and breathe clean air or roam around in shorts but breathe the horrible air in Delhi? I'm not running down India at all. I'm just pointing out some pros and cons.

On the other hand would you have a lavish life in India or would you live an ordinary life in the western world? It's a personal choice. I went from not bothering about things like electricity bills, mortgage, car loans etc, 3 months ago, to now having to keep track of bills, pay rent, car lease etc. I've done it before and I liked the other benefits of living in the western world. Did I move for money? No. I saved 2-3 times more in India than I save here today.

A piece of advice to people looking for "quick money" in the western world. It's a myth. No such thing exists. India is awesome for a career and to make money. You start at a very low salary and it can be tough for those initial years. Work hard for 7-8 years and you will start making money that you'd never imagined you would make.

Moving to a western country for me was a lifestyle choice and of course a family choice as my siblings are within a few kms now.

"mota mota", I agree with what you and a lot of other people have said.


PS: All of my office colleagues in India and I were fed up of the traffic in Mumbai (the WEH to be precise). Did I like it? no. Did I live with it? yes, for 10 years after I returned to India in 2007.


I was reading a post that spoke about India becoming unlivable in the future. While I don't want to run it down, I do fear the increasing rate of crime, the political slug-fest over absolutely horrendous crimes. How was the latest viral video about a guy hacking another human being to death and setting his body on fire, different from what those morons have been doing in the middle east? We have as a society become immune(for a lack of a better word) to such crimes. That does sound disturbing. I'm not comparing with the western world. The shooting in Vegas and the gun control argument which has been going on forever is equally appalling. We've become immune to crimes like rape too. Is New Delhi any safer after the Nirbhaya incident? While we should tom tom about the awesome stuff in India, we should also put pressure on the system to fix these things to ensure that a basic quality of life is given to every citizen regardless of his or her financial power.

/end rant.