[blacksport]

This is a godforsaken country, for crying out loud. Well, I could have put it in a nicer way, but nice words are a hindrance to the truth. I had every opportunity to migrate to a first world country where there is an infinitely better chance of living without fear. But then, it meant assimilating to a culture that is completely alien to me. And that, I could not. I tried three countries and came back to where I "belonged".

Not many nationalists exists in the country who would not jump ship to a better country, if they have an opportunity. If you find one who hesitates, throw him 500 acre ranch and a yacht and watch his nationalism vaporise into the air.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by kablu

Dear all,
Now that I've decided to apply for Canada PR,
I did some research and found that Automation and performance testing has scope in Software testing.
On the other hand if I look outside testing, Niche skills like RPA (UiPath), Hadoop are in high demand.

My questions are,

1) what kind of skill set I need to acquire to secure an IT Software testing job in Canada ?
2) Whether it is possible to become a developer again by learning RPA or Bigdata (and get some certifications done to support my claim of knowledge) and secure a job in Canada?
3) Going all out of the scope, I'm a fitness and nutrition enthusiast. Will I be able to put my knowledge in use and concentrate setting up an alternate career there?

From my past experience, the job skills you need to qualify for immigration are vastly different from the job skills you need to get a job in software industry. For example, while your current job function as a manager may get you extra points to qualify for immigration, it is your skills as a programmer that will get actually get you a job in the industry. I dont think you will be given a managerial responsibility straight off the boat *pardon the expression*

Regarding your fitness and nutrition enthusiasm, I think it is definitely something you can pursue once you are there and somewhat settled in. Look for some official certifications to get a head start.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Not an expert, but first thing would be to check how much points you rake up based on your age/educational qualifications etc. A major factor in getting a good score is the IELTS results. If you can score a overall band 9 - your chances are good. The recent draws have called candidates with overall scores of 450+

That is a very good point.

[am1m]

Have a question based on an observation.

I've never lived abroad, don't think I ever will have the opportunity to and don't particularly want to either; am pretty comfortable here. Maybe if I had kids I would have thought differently.

Now the question is, and this is purely out of curiosity, how difficult is it for a first gen immigrant to truly assimilate into a foreign society? I have a ton of friends who moved to the US, UK, Australia, and several parts of Europe after college, after getting jobs, etc. But in all the photos they send, there are seldom any, you know, 'white' people. I'm not trying to make a racist point or anything here. But all I see are Desis in all their photos.

Is it hard to make friends outside of the Indian community in those countries? I suppose second generation immigrants (their children) will assimilate better?

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by am1m

Have a question based on an observation.

I've never lived abroad, don't think I ever will have the opportunity to and don't particularly want to either; am pretty comfortable here. Maybe if I had kids I would have thought differently.

Now the question is, and this is purely out of curiosity, how difficult is it for a first gen immigrant to truly assimilate into a foreign society? I have a ton of friends who moved to the US, UK, Australia, and several parts of Europe after college, after getting jobs, etc. But in all the photos they send, there are seldom any, you know, 'white' people. I'm not trying to make a racist point or anything here. But all I see are Desis in all their photos.

Is it hard to make friends outside of the Indian community in those countries? I suppose second generation immigrants (their children) will assimilate better?

In most cases, i have seen that such people tend to congregate within their own community, in this case ethnicity. Among the first things they do when they land in a new country is to look for areas to live in where other Indians are around, social and cultural communities etc. I have also seen the same being done by some Indian guys at the workplace. They mingle just with the other Indian crowd, speak in their regional language without taking into account others around them, and so on. What this results is that others around tend to assume you are not interested in mingling with other races, and therefore of a closed mindset. Remember its not for them to ensure you integrate, that has to come from the person who has moved to the new country.

I always insist on replying back in English at the workplace even if the other person speaks to me in a Hindi/regional languages. Some think i am shying away from my heritage, but to me this is about being open, especially in an environment shared by people of varying cultural backgrounds.

Imagine a scenario where you are in a German workplace where English is the official language, but all the Germans converse only in German despite you being around. It's the same.

It's not that hard to assimilate. All you need is an open mind.
The second generation always find it easier as they don't come with preconceived notions and hence find it easier to fit in.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by am1m

But in all the photos they send, there are seldom any, you know, 'white' people. I'm not trying to make a racist point or anything here. But all I see are Desis in all their photos.

But subconsciously you did make a racist point. Why do you want to see white people and not blacks, Latinos or asians? Ok, I am just kidding.

But you are right. First generation Indian immigrants who live in areas that have lots of Indians, usually stick with Indians and don't have any non-Indian friends. They will have non-Indian acquaintances, but not friends with whom they hangout.

This has led to a phenomenon called multiculturalism, which is a poison pill to the earlier concept of American melting pot. Early immigrants would try very hard to fit-in into their new country, because they would have lost all contact with their former country. But with new communication tools, one hardly loses touch with their former country. And if they are surrounded by lots of people with same origins, they never feel the need to make even the attempt to change their culture and accept the local culture.

Melting pot usually results in cosmopolitan culture, where people learn about each other and mix freely. But multiculturalism has created islands of people who interact with other cultures only if necessary. And breaking this barrier is pretty tough since it has become the norm. Even among Indians, there was further separation by language and caste, etc. I remember attending a birthday party of my wife's classmate's kid in New Jersey. Forget non-Indians, I was the only non-Tamil speaking person in the party, where everybody spoke in Tamil. I have lots of friends in India who are from different states of India. But doing the same in US is very hard. My room mate in NJ for 6 months barely spoke to me because I couldn't speak Telugu. But he was very friendly with my Telugu speaking friend.

This is one of the reasons I didn't feel good about living in US. I didn't want to be picking friends from a small list of people who had same language or ethnic background as me. I like to live in cosmopolitan culture, and not a multicultural one.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Why do you want to see white people and not blacks, Latinos or asians? Ok, I am just kidding.

Haha, the moment I typed that I knew it was going to be open to that interpretation. But it was just lazy typing, and I knew most people would understand what I meant to say when I used the word 'white'. But just to clarify for the others, unlike you, who may still misunderstand- I just meant to ask why does is seem like it is not easy to make non-Desi friends (as opposed to just acquaintances) in a foreign land.

Originally Posted by Samurai

This has led to a phenomenon called multiculturalism, which is a poison pill to the earlier concept of American melting pot. I like to live in cosmopolitan culture, and not a multicultural one.

This is a very sensible explanation, thanks! I never thought about this, I always assumed 'multicultural' was the same as 'cosmopolitan'. I guess to be truly cosmopolitan does entail giving up on some of your more 'regional' traits.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by am1m

Have a question based on an observation.

I've never lived abroad, don't think I ever will have the opportunity to and don't particularly want to either; am pretty comfortable here. Maybe if I had kids I would have thought differently.

Now the question is, and this is purely out of curiosity, how difficult is it for a first gen immigrant to truly assimilate into a foreign society? I have a ton of friends who moved to the US, UK, Australia, and several parts of Europe after college, after getting jobs, etc. But in all the photos they send, there are seldom any, you know, 'white' people. I'm not trying to make a racist point or anything here. But all I see are Desis in all their photos.

Is it hard to make friends outside of the Indian community in those countries? I suppose second generation immigrants (their children) will assimilate better?

That indeed is a good observation, and you have got some great responses from Benbsb29 and Samurai.

From what I have seen, many at times we assume our reluctance to mingle (with other cultures) as their reluctance towards us. The downside of that is, the person will go into a small circle and dwell within that. In the end it gets to a routine of work, home food, weekend with this limited set of people, holidays with the same group etc. Though it may feel that the person have home comfort abroad, this limited space can soon get very monotonous, home-sickness, nostalgia seeps in big time; some still cling on living the NRI dream, or just because of money factor or peer pressure.

On the other hand, if you move to a place with not much of pre-conceived notions and an open mind, the ‘merging in’ process is not that difficult – you yourself can be a global citizen, instead of waiting for your next generation to assimilate

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by am1m

Now the question is, and this is purely out of curiosity, how difficult is it for a first gen immigrant to truly assimilate into a foreign society? I have a ton of friends who moved to the US, UK, Australia, and several parts of Europe after college, after getting jobs, etc. But in all the photos they send, there are seldom any, you know, 'white' people. I'm not trying to make a racist point or anything here. But all I see are Desis in all their photos.
Is it hard to make friends outside of the Indian community in those countries? I suppose second generation immigrants (their children) will assimilate better?

I have never settled abroad though I have lived there for extended periods (6 months or so on each occassion) setting up branches of my business and recruiting staff etc. If you have an open mind and migrate because you want to embrace the host country and its culture and put your mind to it then assimilating is quite possible. Their manner of social interaction is different from ours and one has to adapt to that. Having interfaced socially with Americans (as my employees, clients or business partners) my learning is that they socialize through activity - treks, golf, sailing, fishing and so on. Inviting you home for dinner is not their preferred way of socializing. If you migrate with the sole intention of earning more or escaping India then there is the risk of our inherent parochialism taking front stage which is what I see in about 85% of the NRI relatives. The onus of reaching out and mingling and then assimilating is on us. By and large our NRIs fall short on that count. This is one reason why on my overseas units I only hire locals. Nor do I transfer folks from home. It has worked very well.

In Dubai/Middle East the difference is less stark because DXB is half Indian!

Our parochialism is also at work when expats come and become our neighbours in India.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Forget non-Indians, I was the only non-Tamil speaking person in the party, where everybody spoke in Tamil. I have lots of friends in India who are from different states of India. But doing the same in US is very hard. My room mate in NJ for 6 months barely spoke to me because I couldn't speak Telugu. But he was very friendly with my Telugu speaking friend.

I can so relate to this incident

On my first day in office during my only visit to the US way back in 2003, a guy stopped me in the cafeteria. He had read the name on my ID card (I happen to have one of the most authentic sounding Telugu first name and last name combo that could be possible). To make things interesting, I cant speak any Telugu whatsoever and only barely understand a few words. This guy started off earnestly like a train; and before I could stop him he had rattled off a few sentences of which I only understood and translated 'tamarind rice'. I did tell him that except for my name, the rest of me is more Maharashtrian than Telugu as our family moved to Pune a few generations ago.

He didnt seem too bothered by that and said he would be more than happy to share his lunch with me. I was torn between exploring the food options of a new country and trying out the food of my ancestors. With the added inconvenience of being rude to someone who just told me 'OUR tamarind rice'.
Meanwhile my (Cantonese) host caught up with me and casually said; you seem to have spoken more to the 'good morning guy' in 2 minutes than we have in the last 2 years!

To cut a long story short; I did end up ordering a large pizza and found a way to tell the friendly chap that I would be eating out more often. What really surprised me with this episode then was the lack of integration with local people (regardless of origin). The more people that I met over the years, I realised that most of the first gen migrants would like to integrate but a lot of things stay different; from the telly channels, music choices to sport and entertainment options with everything food and hobby related thrown in between. Perhaps the later generations integrate in some way if they go to a school with students from other backgrounds. A lot of the locals are already second/ third gen Indians who moved there a few generations ago. So I would think they may be in a similar situation like I found myself. A maharashtrian with a Telugu name as against an American with an Indian name.

Some of my cousins/ neighbours/ friends who are in the US continue to stay in pockets where you could probably say this is the Shivaji park or Kothrud of say Denver/ North Carolina. Their social gatherings are also within the same lot of people; some of the kids may venture out to schools in other localities. All a part of the fun of living in a different country and then doing your best to live with other people who live in your cul-de-sac.

[Samir Taheer]

Originally Posted by am1m

Have a question based on an observation.

I've never lived abroad, don't think I ever will have the opportunity to and don't particularly want to either; am pretty comfortable here. Maybe if I had kids I would have thought differently.

Now the question is, and this is purely out of curiosity, how difficult is it for a first gen immigrant to truly assimilate into a foreign society?

Is it hard to make friends outside of the Indian community in those countries?

Honestly I don't think its hard. I lived in various parts of the UK for 14 years (University and then work). During my last work stint i lived in an EDL (English Defense League) dominated town and worked in an office where i was the only 'colored skin' person. Not ever did i ever feel uncomfortable or was i made to feel unwelcome. In fact a majority of those friends I made are still close to me (visit me here, I stay with them when i visit, etc).

On the other hand, its not just Indians who are clickish, the Polish, Israeli's are also known to live in tight knit communities. Even immigrants into India, form Expat groups.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Early immigrants would try very hard to fit-in into their new country, because they would have lost all contact with their former country. But with new communication tools, one hardly loses touch with their former country. And if they are surrounded by lots of people with same origins, they never feel the need to make even the attempt to change their culture and accept the local culture.

Contrary to this i found that alot of the older/earlier immigrants into the UK (That's where my exposure ends) are the ones who never integrated. The immigrated in groups and stuck within those groups. Which is what lead to the rise of neighborhoods like Southall, Leicester, Dagenham, etc. I found that these immigrants are far more reserved - culturally and socially than almost everyone I knew in Pune, growing up.

To answer the question that this group is based on - It's worth it! I moved back because of personal issues but my 5 year plan is to either move back to the UK or move out of Pune city (into the countryside, not another city ). Quality of life has most certainly deteriorated, at least here in Pune.

[shajufx]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is one of the reasons I didn't feel good about living in US. I didn't want to be picking friends from a small list of people who had same language or ethnic background as me. I like to live in cosmopolitan culture, and not a multicultural one.

A smart point not heard from anyone else till date and I feel it and agree 100%
Probably I am eligible to write in this thread due to the following reasons:

1. I shuttle between India and Middle East very often on work and leisure !
2. My 1st cousin is settled in Canada with her husband and kid
2. My another 1st cousin is settled in Australia with her husband and 2 kids
3. My wife's 1st cousins (3 of them) are settled in Japan
4. My wife's 1st cousins are settled in US and Canada and UK
5. I have best friends (schoolmates) in most countries.

All the above are regularly in touch including wishing each other on every festive days, sharing life and job situations etc.

None of the above are as happy as me and my wife at any given point. Some of them are economically far above an upper class citizen in India and own houses, property, expensive cars etc. Although they pretend to be happy in the new country, there is always an emotional longing towards home country. Most of them have no plans to return due to their business, kids future, fear of building up everything from scratch and many such reasons. Their 1st circle of friends are Indians and most of them live in places where Indian majority is felt.

We were suggested to move to some of these countries as they tried to paint a rosy picture, we even tried migrating, but majority opinion ruled the decision and we are still in India. We were strongly influenced to move out when demonetization took place, political and economical future of the country was in question. Again, we chose to stay. As of now, we prefer to stay in spite of never ending invites to join one of the family or friend circle in some strange country

There is another side to the entire story above : If you are a bachelor, you have a potential offer to try a new country, don't skip it. Either it will open up new doors to the future or it will add up to your life experiences.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

I happen to have one of the most authentic sounding Telugu first name and last name combo that could be possible). To make things interesting, I cant speak any Telugu whatsoever and only barely understand a few words.

I can relate to THAT. You don't have to go abroad for that to happen. Similar to you, I'm genetically 100% Malayali with an obviously Mallu last name. But since I was born and raised in Bangalore, I can't speak Malayalam. Every time I run into a Mallu, they assume I can though and actually seem quite offended when I say I can't!

That raises an interesting parallel with the whole assimilating thing though, I suppose my parents would be akin to immigrants to Bangalore and I would be a born Bangalorean with a different culture from what I would have imbibed had I been born and raised in Kerala.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by shajufx

None of the above are as happy as me and my wife at any given point. Some of them are economically far above an upper class citizen in India and own houses, property, expensive cars etc. Although they pretend to be happy in the new country, there is always an emotional longing towards home country. Most of them have no plans to return due to their business, kids future, fear of building up everything from scratch and many such reasons. Their 1st circle of friends are Indians and most of them live in places where Indian majority is felt.

The happiness part IMO is a very relative thing, a lot of it depends on how well you feel integrated to the place you are in. If you consider/ others consider you as an alien in a specific society, there will be always that push to get back into the comfort zone.

If I have to look for examples, I don’t need to go too far:

Example 1: My sister and husband moved to Australia a few years back, largely due to my sister’s desire to live abroad because many of her family (including me) and friends live abroad and it’s supposed to a very cool. The guy was just opposite and had an extremely strong affinity to stay home. Long story short, a few of his friends went on work assignments in Sydney, and he left his job in Kerala and migrated to Kochi. They have this core group of ‘Kerala families’, mainly his friends from Kochi and their friends, and they meet every other weekend, trips are planned strictly within that group, every Kerala festivals are celebrated within that group, and to top it up and they recently got converted into Aussie citizens. On the surface they have a good group there, but the guy is terribly grumpy with the fact that he has be in an alien environment Monday to Friday with no one to talk, and also now he is not an Indian citizen anymore. They are just going with the flow and mostly will stay as fence-sitters.

Example 2: I moved abroad 17 years back (by chance, not by choice), went thru the settling in period, worked in places where even English speakers were a rarity. In the first one year abroad I used to terribly miss home, but I can see a big difference now. I still miss home at times and luckily its just 4 hrs flight and an hour drive away. But after 2 weeks or probably 3, I start missing my adopted country; whether I go to Kerala, Tokyo or Philadelphia, the landing back in Changi Airport gives me that touchdown home feeling. Moving back to India or any other country is not in cards, but I always keep my options open. I have still not changed to a red passport, even though it’s among the world’s most powerful passport. My colleagues say you need a visa to travel to almost every other country, but I tell them that you need to a passport to go to India, and I don’t

[14000rpm]

I have a totally different problem - Identity Crisis.

In my early days of my career, I wanted to be onsite in US. the sheer curiosity of life outside of India drew me only to US and nowhere else. I finally did get an assignment and spent 2.5 yrs living in various parts of US. Made many american friends who still continue to be friends since 11 yrs. But then, knowing too much about them and their problems actually showed me a sad and depressed part of US. I ended my assignment prematurely and left.

The next assignment was a deputation to Finland - a country I knew only for their racing drivers and Santa Claus. Spent 5.5 years there and thoroughly loved it. Made numerous Finnish friends who are now family friends and I'm sure will remain friends for long. Learnt a lot of good things esp. how they raise their children and their culture etc. However, this stint, undesirably ended. It was my choice to move out in pursuit of better career opps in US. Yes, back to US.

Now that we have seen Europe and US (again), we have a clear comparison of life in both countries and can now say- we were a happier family in Finland. Period. its been 9 months since this move to US and every weekend wife and I speak to our Finnish friends and immediately conclude that we have to go back to Finland. Note- Finland. Not India.

For some reason we feel Finland is more Home than India. Now this is my moment of crisis. Why are we calling Finland as home? We're just 1st gen immigrants. I can't figure this out still. For one, I believe it is the people. They are some of the nicest ever. Something that is increasingly a rarity in US. Getting to know more about Finns actually made me love Finland unlike the case with americans.

I'm here on L1A and can get GC via EB1 pretty quick. I'm not too excited though and have warmed up my Finnish channels. Will find a way back there soon.


My belief- Geographies don't define places. People do.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by 14000rpm

Now that we have seen Europe and US (again), we have a clear comparison of life in both countries and can now say- we were a happier family in Finland. Period. its been 9 months since this move to US and every weekend wife and I speak to our Finnish friends and immediately conclude that we have to go back to Finland. Note- Finland. Not India.

If Finland culture is anything like Switzerland, then I am not surprised. Although I have had no experience of life in that part of Europe, below article which is a first person account, was quite an eye opener for me.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/l...ture-987981365

Originally Posted by 14000rpm

I'm here on L1A and can get GC via EB1 pretty quick. I'm not too excited though and have warmed up my Finnish channels. Will find a way back there soon.

You may want to redefine "pretty quick" here. It has been nearly 10 months since my process started and I am yet to hear anything on my case. Worse yet, there are no predictions that can be applied to any case right now.