[giri1.8]

Originally Posted by shajufx

We were suggested to move to some of these countries as they tried to paint a rosy picture, we even tried migrating, but majority opinion ruled the decision and we are still in India.

Your post bought a smile to my face, almost all of my friends are leaving or planning to leave India, thanks to the ones who have already migrated, but I felt that, this is like the mistake of taking computer science as major in college all over again!

Migrating to a foreign land is totally rewarding for people who are highly skilled in a particular filed, which hasn't developed much here.

India's condition might seem uncertain, only until we understand the problems other countries face. Shuffling between India and it's neighbours certainly seems to be the way to get the best of both the world, my cousin is doing that and seems to enjoy it, he is genuinely happy

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by VKumar

Dear @V. Narayan, I agree on every single point you have stated here.

This is indeed the biggest problem, I am in India and I am not leaving, I have won awards on national and international stages (have research papers published in one of the most coveted journals), and really don't feel that I need to leave the Indian soil to have a stable career. IT is indeed all about priorities.

Thank you VKumar. It is a pleasure to know there are young people like you who want to contribute to building this country hard though it is and wish to stay here and build India's GDP and contribute a mite to improving this country. Escape is easy. It takes courage to plough the field here. Congratulations on your awards and research achievements. Keep the tri-colour flying.

Originally Posted by lazy

Is Emigrating from India worth it?
Not an easy question to answer, and even if one does, it will not be applicable to everyone.

Thank you for that long balanced post you wrote covering most aspects.

But yes, going there and then running down India is something unacceptable, but at the same time; it is something that more than majority of the people do.

If you have taken advantage of India’s highly subsidized public education system (Kendriya Vidyalaya, IIT, IIM, RECs, NLS, AIIMS, etc), then it is your obligation to repay that debt to India before quitting. One can debate this point, but this is a fact that an emigrant cannot wish away.

Well said. I've made this point earlier. Though I didn't go as far as saying they need to repay back. I only request they out grow their rant and hatred. But sadly the need to rant against India seems to be an integral part of most Indian emigrants' mental and emotional process. I see it in relatives and associates in USA & UK (I haven't been to ANZ so cant comment). Half an hour into a social gathering they will launch forth against India. My answer to them is simple - you don't rant about Gabon do you? why - you don't live there, don't create jobs there, don't pay taxes in Gabon - as a corollary you don't pour out bile on it either. Well you don't pay taxes in India, or live here or contribute to the GDP in the main so chill out. But several Indian NRIs especially in the West have this psychological need to vent bile against India. Don't say it doesn't happen - it is almost an epidemic and a sad reflection on those individuals. The moment they see a face from India they launch forth. Comments?

But, one final thought I’ll leave you with – Never leave India to run away from its shortcomings, one can never be happy that way. Always go towards something better, eg, a better career option, or a loved one, whatever that one big goal is. Because running away from negatives isn’t possible, many of those negatives aren’t India’s, they are one’s own.

.

Originally Posted by amitoj

So, how do we, those who have migrated to a foreign land, justify our move without highlighting the shortcomings of living in India that were unacceptable to us?

You don't marry one girl because you dislike another. You marry the girl if you really like her. Migrate if you wish because you love America, Canada, Europe etc for what, in your eyes, they offer not because of visceral feelings for India. Because that hate will sit inside you for years. The only person it will affect is you.

Originally Posted by blacksport

This is a godforsaken country, for crying out loud.

Wow. Wow. Wow. And remind me again why are you wasting your time here sir.

Not many nationalists exists in the country who would not jump ship to a better country, if they have an opportunity. If you find one who hesitates, throw him 500 acre ranch and a yacht and watch his nationalism vaporise into the air.

Speak only for yourself sir. If you assume that several crores of others have the same view or aim or lure you are being either naïve or vain or both.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Migrate if you wish because you love America, Canada, Europe etc for what, in your eyes, they offer not because of visceral feelings for India. Because that hate will sit inside you for years. The only person it will affect is you.

I thought we were done with this debate.

Hate is a word that I rarely use because it is a strong word and people tend to use it without caution. Just because I chose one thing over the other does not mean that there was hate for it.

Anyway, the thought process behind emigrating is the same as behind any other important decision. Evaluate the pros and cons of both sides and then decide based on what is acceptable to you. It is not possible to have a one sided view like "love". Love is just an emotion and you can't base a life changing decision on emotions. So, when asked for reasons behind the decision, both pros and cons will get listed.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

I only request they out grow their rant and hatred. But sadly the need to rant against India seems to be an integral part of most Indian emigrants' mental and emotional process. I see it in relatives and associates in USA & UK (I haven't been to ANZ so cant comment). Half an hour into a social gathering they will launch forth against India. My answer to them is simple - you don't rant about Gabon do you? why - you don't live there, don't create jobs there, don't pay taxes in Gabon - as a corollary you don't pour out bile on it either. Well you don't pay taxes in India, or live here or contribute to the GDP in the main so chill out. ....
....
Wow. Wow. Wow. And remind me again why are you wasting your time here sir.

From what I understand there is a problem if people rant about India while staying abroad and not paying taxes etc. It is totally another point that they might be doing so by remitting money or paying taxes on their assets here. Most of them would have faced some problems or discrimination here, which is why they complain about this place. I don't think they have any history with Gabon. Or Congo for that matter.

In the second case that you responded to; if a resident Indian is complaining, he/ she is wasting their time here? Then they should move out of India, but still not complain? I am really confused now.

All put together, your point seems to be that people should not complain, but do something about fixing the problem. And if they cannot do anything to fix the situation, they do not have any right to complain; regardless of where they live or pay their taxes. In my opinion, we also need to understand that most people consider this problem to be too large and entrenched over decades to be able to even fix a fraction of it. This is before we start thinking that any of us is able to start a revolution by themselves.

While I know that complaining would not fix anything, keeping quiet would not fix anything either.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by amitoj

I thought we were done with this debate.

+1 to that. Emigration (or immigration) is a part of modern life. Labeling the pretty straightforward decision to emigrate as 'escaping', or conversely, praising people who remain in their home country as 'loyal' seems a bit outdated and plays into the hands of fringe politics.

If we use that same logic, then if I move to a different city in another state in my own country where I have better job opportunities and offers my idea of a better life, am I being 'disloyal' to my home state? Where do we draw the line? Who decides?

[blacksport]

It is sometimes amusing to see how gullible people can be, and how easily they get swayed by feelings of nationalism.

Jingoism will never get us anywhere. We are slowly moving towards a world with open borders. Cultural differences are slowly getting erased. Even races are mixing.

It would be foolish to think that you are a special kind of group, so much so that you are protected from criticism.

[Nav-i-gator]

Nationalism is subjective, I won't comment on that. But Pride is something you should feel when talking about our roots.

There is no harm (and absolutely no guilt or "you failed your nation" feeling) when one migrate to a different country. One can talk freely about the failings of the country too, without feeling hatred towards it though.

Yes, there are many things bad with our country. Most of the times one or the other such failings are the reason we look for migrating to other countries, let's be frank about it. But when you move out of your house, you carry a part of the image of it with you. When you move out of your high school to university, you carry a part of the image of your schooling with you. Same is with our country of origin. It's our conduct, our way of talking about our country that creates an image of our country for those who have never visited it. We need to be a bit responsible for how we like to project our own country of origin to others.

That is pride. Despite of a no of failings and shortcomings my country possess, it never stopped me from gaining enough talent and skills to be able to migrate to countries perceptibly better than my own. I may have suffered in my own country for XYZ reasons (corruption, over-population, reservations etc), but I am good enough to succeed in a much more developed country. In a way, my country made me better.

[volkman10]

Australia abolishes skilled expat workers’ visas popular with Indians.

Instead, it has introduced a new Temporary Skill Shortage (TSS) visa from March 18.

The abolished visa was a popular route for Indians headed to work Down Under. Of the 90,000-odd holders of the 457 visas, 22% were Indians.

Source:

[androdev]

The prospect of being an underachiever in a land of opportunities, failure to assimilate, excessive assimilation by kids, unable to 'be there' for parents and siblings and so on can be huge in later years of life.

Thankfully unlike India in 1980s, we now live in an era where the youth don't have to choose between ambition and living close to parents. I still encourage people to go and figure things out for themselves but don't underestimate the fullness of life one can live here. But as they say one man's trash is another man's treasure.

[blacksport]

Originally Posted by androdev

The prospect of being an underachiever in a land of opportunities, failure to assimilate, excessive assimilation by kids, unable to 'be there' for parents and siblings and so on can be huge in later years of life.

You nailed it. You can't simply leave because you don't like the place. There are people who can adapt to whatever environment they are thrown into. And there are people who cannot. While I still urge people with an opportunity to leave, to at least explore it, I have resigned to the fact that emigration is not for me.

[sajo]

One good reason to go abroad : Cheap horsepower! One sees that some seriously fast stuff is easily within one's reach, cars, motorcycles, boats!

PS: I am not an emigrant. The above post was made in lighter vein since I felt that the air on this thread was becoming a bit heavy.

I lived abroad for some time, even liked it quite a lot, my company would have easily filed my GC by now, but during some tough times, I discovered that there is nothing like the support of family around (either as a giver or a taker). So even if the option from employer side is still open for me to move, I dont think I am ready to explore it.

Yes, my country has shortcomings, some of them quite severe and get on my nerves everyday. As a middle class tax paying citizen of urban India, what I miss most about my time abroad is the sheer ease of living.

Just Imagine : If all my country men were better behaved and courteous in public, maintained cleanliness just in their own immediate environs, diligently follow traffic rules, plant and care for a tree or two, how many of us would think about moving anywhere else ?

All the above does not even cost money, or involvement from the government in any capacity. Its these little things which add up to the frustration of the mango man, resulting in outbursts which can be misconstrued as anti-Indian.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by sajo

One good reason to go abroad : Cheap horsepower! One sees that some seriously fast stuff is easily within one's reach, cars, motorcycles, boats!

Not just affordability, even the variety is not available in India. I could never dream of driving a 5.7L Hemi V8 belting out nearly 400BHP in India.


And once you get into the used car market, its like the gates of heaven have opened!

Originally Posted by sajo

Just Imagine : If all my country men were better behaved and courteous in public, maintained cleanliness just in their own immediate environs, diligently follow traffic rules, plant and care for a tree or two, how many of us would think about moving anywhere else ?

Well said.

It would have definitely been a way more difficult decision for me had the above happened.

[basilmabraham]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

In most cases, i have seen that such people tend to congregate within their own community, in this case ethnicity. ... Remember its not for them to ensure you integrate, that has to come from the person who has moved to the new country.

Having lived in Europe and Australia, I can confirm that there is always the opportunity to 'naturalise' and integrate with the culture of the country you migrated to. As rightly said by Benny, it has to be triggered by the person migrating, as it is his/her responsibility/own good to integrate.

Originally Posted by benbsb29

I always insist on replying back in English at the workplace even if the other person speaks to me in a Hindi/regional languages. Some think i am shying away from my heritage, but to me this is about being open, especially in an environment shared by people of varying cultural backgrounds.

My first jobs in Australia have been in places where I was the only one from India, I took the initiative to integrate and it has been a good ride for me. As I am typing this from my new office, I can hear a meeting happening behind me in Tamil, completely oblivious to the rest of the crowd sitting in the office. I completely agree with Benny, it is a way of showing respect by not speaking in your local language when in presence of others who do not understand it.

Originally Posted by benbsb29

Imagine a scenario where you are in a German workplace where English is the official language, but all the Germans converse only in German despite you being around. It's the same.

Been there and faced this, probably this experience has taught me to be more careful on how I behave when in public.

Originally Posted by benbsb29

It's not that hard to assimilate. All you need is an open mind.
The second generation always find it easier as they don't come with preconceived notions and hence find it easier to fit in.

Spot on!

Originally Posted by vb-san

The happiness part IMO is a very relative thing, a lot of it depends on how well you feel integrated to the place you are in. If you consider/ others consider you as an alien in a specific society, there will be always that push to get back into the comfort zone.

Example 1: My sister and husband moved to Australia a few years back, largely due to my sister’s desire to live abroad because many of her family ... will stay as fence-sitters.

It is unfortunate that people do this and try to make little Kerala or India in a country that they have migrated to. These people set the tone of being super closed to integrating with the society and leave a prejudice that everyone else with the same skin color are the same. Being a fellow Malayalee I completely understand their feeling, but it is unfortuante and they should be able to integrate better. No offense to anyone, I have consciously tried to avoid such areas to live.

Originally Posted by vb-san

Example 2: I moved abroad 17 years back (by chance, not by choice), went thru the settling in period... I still miss home at times and luckily its just 4 hrs flight and an hour drive away....the landing back in Changi Airport gives me that touchdown home feeling....

I share this feeling, Sydney now feels home, even though we travel to Kerala every year and miss it, Sydney feels more like home, though it has only been 2 years since we moved.

Originally Posted by androdev

The prospect of being an underachiever in a land of opportunities, failure to assimilate, excessive assimilation by kids, unable to 'be there' for parents and siblings and so on can be huge in later years of life.

This is a great point, migrating makes sense to those who have the skills to be achievers in a land of opportunities, and have the open mind set to assimilate and be a part of the new society and be happy about it.

To conclude, whether to migrate or not is a personal/family opinion and is relative to the circumstances of each individual/family. It may work for some, it may not for others. Every country has its own good and bad, everyone has to choose wisely. I do not believe it is right to bad-mouth your original country or your newly migrated country, they are what they are, and you chose to be where you are.

[The Rationalist]

Having resisted all my life to emigrate to US/ UK where I could make atleast 8-10 times my current pay, let me say one thing. Life is greener on the other side always. I have too many relatives out there in the West, even my sister who has called North America her home. From their experience and all, I can say that life is way too easier and less chaotic. But there is a price to pay for that. Are you ready to pay the price is the big question mark? And for people who think West is the land of opportunities, sitting behind a keyboard is not everything in life. The education system sucks except for Finland ( which I envy a lot ).

And I haven’t even heard about any Indian who was raised in the West and made a very big impact in any sphere of life. All the big achievements are made by a very small percentage of nerdy guys who are soically challeneged and are obsessed upon things. If you are open minded and don’t force the education system in India down the throats of kids, then there is no dearth of opportunities in India. You need to have a plan. It all boils down to parenting in case of kids, no country is going to make them succesful by default. And every single person thinks that emigrating will make their kids successful in life. Far from the fact,as I have relatives who are third generation children in West. India is a third world country and it may remain so for some time, but if given a choice I will still wish to be born here. Let me tell you one thing Indians will be more successful than their Western counterparts if the pathetic education system is thrown out and something similar to Finnish system is introduced. For higher education, I would recommend Western universities.

Emigration is not the solution for all your problems. It can solve some but will bring in new ones with it. If you don’t keep that open mind, you are bound to be disappointed.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

Emigration is not the solution for all your problems. It can solve some but will bring in new ones with it. If you don’t keep that open mind, you are bound to be disappointed.

True, and well-said.

From what i see, that has been the same opinion voiced by many on this thread. I don't see where anyone on this thread has gone on a one-sided rant blaming India?