[Avenger_123]

Originally Posted by avisidhu

Canada vs US: It's quite easy migrating to Canada based on the PR system. That pretty much sums it up for a majority.

Canada vs India: Lot of answers already given here. But a big one that either got missed, or maybe I attach undue importance to. The absolute mess that Urban India is, combined with climate change.

Cities down south are better, at least from pollution perspective. But I'm surprised why anyone North especially Delhi/NCR, would be ok living there for the rest of their lives. Combine this will the adulteration in most products we consume right from food to medicines. It is increasingly becoming a question of why someone would still want to live in India anymore.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I'm asking this as a genuine question and not being rhetorical, since it's been weighing on my mind heavily.

This is part of the bigger problem, which makes decisions difficult. One can afford so called "middle class luxuries" here in US easily, including home, cars, gadgets etc. in most cities without even being UHI. But visas and green card are a big gamble these days.

Compare this to a city like Bangalore, where even a good 3BHK from good builders touch around 1.5 Cr, add to that the concerns with ground water, infrastructure and pollution. I am still surprised how folks are able to afford all these houses, especially with around 9% or more home loan rates.

Easy PR makes you think about Canada, but at least looking at taxes, generally lower salary and prices, I guess one needs to evaluate if a good paying job back home is worth more than an average job in Canada. I am assuming general career progression is more easy in home country.

Add children to the mix from there long term education/career perspective it adds more confusion

Looks like you won't get best of both worlds - and just take the plunge knowing the risks !!

[avisidhu]

Originally Posted by Avenger_123

..........
Easy PR makes you think about Canada, but at least looking at taxes, generally lower salary and prices, I guess one needs to evaluate if a good paying job back home is worth more than an average job in Canada. I am assuming general career progression is more easy in home country.
....

That's the crux of the issue for many professionals in and beyond their 30s. But then again, the value attached to many of these comforts has followed the law of diminishing returns, be it cars or other possessions. Perhaps a not so substantial hit in lifestyle could be accommodated, knowing that you are gaining in other aspects?

You mentioned kids, which is another aspect to be worried about. Raising them here ensures they are closer to their culture and relatives, while abroad leads to (hopefully) lot less worries about their future.

What do the parents of kids think who've been a part of these transitions, do they feel they gained or lost in the process?

[HKap]

Originally Posted by avisidhu

What do the parents of kids think who've been a part of these transitions, do they feel they gained or lost in the process?

If the kids are still in primary school, it's not that difficult. What I like the most is the exposure that kids get to sports and other extra curricular activities. The schooling is certainly easier compared to schools back home. The kids aren't burdened with tonnes of homework and that's a good thing. For older kids, I think the challenge would be to adjust to a completely new culture and a very different way of doing things. Having said that, the pros far outweigh the cons.

[centaur]

Not sure about Australia but now, Canada doesn't seem that lucrative. There is a heavy influx of people from all over including a lot from US owing to the visa issues. While many still work for companies/projects in the US, the job scene isn't very rosy at all. The PR process has become a lot stricter and tougher. Getting a PR is taking way longer than before. Adding to it, there have been instances of hate crimes there too, which was never heard of in the past. I guess, its always part and parcel of heavy influx of people from other countries. Australia and Japan seem a better option for now if one is seriously thinking of immigrating.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Avenger_123

I am torn between this and going back to the home branch in Bangalore - it's a tough spot to be in with growing kids !!

It's a problem of plenty. Good for you. USA, Canada or Back Home. Most of us don't get those choices. The age of your kids could be one over riding criterion - if over 12 then adjustment and learning Indian languages at school will be a major challenge. If below 9 then heaven is where the parents are. The value of career opportunities of the 3 situations only you can assess. So I wont go there without much data at my end. A career can be built as easily in India as any where else it all boils down to ones perspectives and mental open mindedness or limitations. India will give you the opportunity of looking after your parents/in-laws and when they grow really old or pass away it is a deeply satisfying feeling that you did your duty when they were around and weren't just a Skype son. On the other hand municipal services are wanting and will remain so for another decade. But still on the other side domestic help, being with your people helps.

Just to share my experience. I retired as a businessman recently. Took the call not to go to USA many moons ago. Many of my wife's batch mates did, as did mine. In the 1990 we were in awe of their standard of living and I dare say some viewed us with a not so silent snigger. Today with one exception, who really hit gold in the Valley, it is the other way around literally with all the rest. My father-in-law and mother, the 2 surviving parents, live with us. Both very old. And while managing the elderly has its moments we have the satisfaction that we've done our best for them.

All the best for your decision. If Canada, wear warm.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

My father-in-law and mother, the 2 surviving parents, live with us. Both very old. And while managing the elderly has its moments we have the satisfaction that we've done our best for them.

Good for you! Emigrating is a very personal choice of course and there is no right or wrong. But I must admit I find a lot of the comments in this thread very "material" in nature. Do not get me wrong. Salary, career opportunities are of course important. But they do not tend to make people very happy and content perse. That is more about the total environment you find yourself in.

Endless research shows that successful emigrants are typically those that have a pretty good understanding of that new society and want to be part of that society. Not just the salary, the career, the schools for the kids.

I think it is really important that you want to be part of that culture/society. I have seen many Indian friends and colleagues who emigrated, but basicly tried to live an Indian life abroad. Their social circle were mostly Indian, not Americans. I think that is a recipe for a disaster. Just a matter of time.

The other pitfall is emigrating because you don't like certain aspects of your current environment/culture/nation. Again, endless research shows people emigrating because they want to get away are less successful than those who emigrate because they are keen and enthusiastic to lead a very very different and new life in a society that is at first pretty alien to them.

Successful emigrants the world over are those that embrace their new home country, learn the language, integrate and become part of the society at large. And guess what, there is no difference from someone escaping some war torn God forsaken country, or somebody from the Netherlands or India.

It doesn't mean you need to give up everything. But first and foremost you must enjoy and embrace an awful lot of new stuff. And be prepared to give up a lot of stuff from back home.

Jeroen

[AMG Power]

Why the vast majority migrate:

Originally Posted by Jeroen

salary, the career, the schools for the kids.

What they don't do:

Originally Posted by Jeroen

be part of that culture/society.

What they do:

Originally Posted by Jeroen

live an Indian life abroad.

End result (with some exceptions and the reason for threads like this)

Originally Posted by Jeroen

recipe for a disaster. Just a matter of time.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Emigrating is a very personal choice of course and there is no right or wrong. But I must admit I find a lot of the comments in this thread very "material" in nature. Do not get me wrong. Salary, career opportunities are of course important. But they do not tend to make people very happy and content per se'. That is more about the total environment you find yourself in.

This is one of the wisest and most thoughtful posts on this thread. Thank you for saying it. A lot of the assumptions in this thread are that simply by being in the West makes you happier & richer.

Endless research shows that successful emigrants are typically those that have a pretty good understanding of that new society and want to be part of that society. Not just the salary, the career, the schools for the kids.I think it is really important that you want to be part of that culture/society. I have seen many Indian friends and colleagues who emigrated, but basicly tried to live an Indian life abroad. Their social circle were mostly Indian, not Americans. I think that is a recipe for a disaster. Just a matter of time.The other pitfall is emigrating because you don't like certain aspects of your current environment/culture/nation. Again, endless research shows people emigrating because they want to get away are less successful than those who emigrate because they are keen and enthusiastic to lead a very very different and new life in a society that is at first pretty alien to them.

In my observations most Indians, even if they vehemently deny it, migrate for the 'escape' factor. This in turn leads them to constantly berate India to feed the justification. One can see it on this thread in a significant percentage of the posts. To some extent to say I work in USA has bragging rights in India but even that is depleting gradually. I see this inability to integrate with my nephews and nieces who migrated even though they are young and in their thirties only.

To the young folks here thinking of migrating and those who have already migrated - give a thought to remaining 'internationally mobile'. In the years to come it will be valuable to be someone who knows how to live and work in USA or Australia and at the same time knows how to live and work in a China or a India or a Africa. The days when returning Indians can turn up their noses and adopt a chee-chee attitude will disappear soon. What Trump has started is permanent and not a blip.

[sunilch]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

....I must admit I find a lot of the comments in this thread very "material" in nature. Do not get me wrong. Salary, career opportunities are of course important. But they do not tend to make people very happy and content perse. That is more about the total environment you find yourself in....

Originally Posted by AMG Power

Why the vast majority migrate:
What they don't do:
What they do:
End result (with some exceptions and the reason for threads like this)

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

This is one of the wisest and most thoughtful posts on this thread....

After going through all the pages and more so the recent messages, allow me to share some personal experiences. While growing up we always were surrounded by thoughts and teachings that life abroad is better in terms of 'Money', 'Infra' and 'Career Opportunities'. Be it the work of a McD salesman in Dubai or London, an engineer (high skill) or semi-skilled labor somewhere in the Gulf, or an IT engineer in the US. The occasionally visiting NRIs would flash their cheap Nike shoes or the $1 green bills and where given more than their fair share of respect in the form of 'Awws'. This made me believe that life abroad is indeed better.

After finishing my studies I was desperate to see the life abroad and did manage to travel for work and studies. I visited London many times for work only to realize that life there is just like the life in Mumbai. Yes the Infra is better and so is the weather. But the city is equally crowded and messy at places, it is equally hard to grab and keep hold of the career opportunities available and is also very expensive. Weather is a very personal matter and there are better places in India too.

Later when studying in US, I did realize that even though the career opportunities are good there and the infra is again better, there are limitations in terms of what you can do with your career due to VISA restrictions, there is lack of family support, healthcare is super expensive (country specific) and unless you actually intend to stay there forever, it is actually not worth it. Back home in India, career opportunities are abundant currently, growth is faster and you are free to choose/direct your career. Infra is not as great but it is getting better by the day and it will get as better as much you desire. You have the whole Family available to support you in whatever the need be, social structure is great, safety is better (compared to US), and there is less discrimination at work places.

What is bad at home is such because we take less initiative to improve it. If we don't take interest in making things better home, we are unlikely to do so in another country and hence remain unsatisfied with the limitations applicable at that place. Yes the law and order situation is not great if you need it, environment is getting worse by the day and to some extent I see lowering levels of moral ethics/civic sense.

But all this is only due to our lack of focus on the same. We are happy to pass on extra Rs 500 for quick service in govt departments and hence the corruption, many educated and motivated personnel do not join PSUs and hence the lower levels of quality of service, we do not take interest in helping the students at municipal schools or look down upon them at times and hence the disparity in terms of level of education and civic/moral sense.

In short it is upto us to make the best of what is available to us and immigration to a developed economy is not what will solve the problems.

[NPV]

According to a media report there are almost 2.49 Lakh Indian students studying at various universities in the US!
Source:Indian Express, Bangalore Oct 27 2018 - Link

Evolving trend - today, in many of the urban schools in Indian cities, it is not uncommon to hear parents of high school children talk about plans for their children to go abroad for higher secondary school and undergrad courses (earlier the numbers were significantly higher for postgrad programs). With the economies opening up and becoming more global, education is also following the trend.

Is this an indication of the possibility of more Indians emigrating to foreign lands in the years ahead ?

[androdev]

Emigrating for better culture, weather, societal values and then assimilating with the host country is absolutely not there on the radar for 99% of Indian immigrants. Most of them are actually quite happy with Indian culture, weather and societal values of India and would consider the west as a compromise or threat in these aspects. For the most part they are just interested in the opportunities that these developed countries offer.

I don't think assimilation is required to be happy as an immigrant if your social needs are met by fellow immigrants. The host country is more interested in assimilation which is understandable. Indians are very happy living in "little India" communities (which are fairly upmarket areas) and they are fairly successful by the standards of the host country. So why the criticism that it would be a disaster? Assimilation is not that easy given the difference in SKIN colour - for some it's not worth it. If you are a natural, then great. Otherwise just move near little India and spare yourself all the baseball/halloween rubbish. You can still have a successful startup/career and your kids can go to Harvard, etc.

One should be fine as long as one preserves a sense of belonging either with assimilation, without assimilation or just by returning home. The most important thing is not to get yourself locked down in a place and be miserable this includes managing the expectations of your family. The definition of misery changes from person to person so you alone would know what's best for you.

[AMG Power]

One can choose to become the equivalent of a Indira Nooyi, Sundar Pichai or Satya Nadella

OR

(For want of a better analogy) A sweeper like the old Indian in the movie "The Terminal" who migrated early and remained a sweeper all his life.

The former weren't the typical Indian techies shunning the host country's culture, inward looking and living in little India's with the resultant inferiority complex that would have resulted in them losing their job and getting booted out of the host country as a matter of course.

They rose to their position primarily because they embraced the culture of the host country in its entirety. Yes, they were exceptional and while everyone cannot get to that level, one can at least look to what they did to arrive at that position instead of looking at all the "also rans" and copying their modus operandi instead.

[jacobvarughese]

As someone who emigrated to Canada a little over 7 months ago, here were my reasons were as follows. My wages were over 25 lakhs per annum in Trivandrum with a Big 4.

a. Pollution: There is a marked difference between what one encounters here and back in India, regardless of city.My family had sneezing/wheezing problems almost every other week whilst in India on account of the deteriorating air quality.

b. Traffic: I just love how the traffic rules are followed here, and learnt a grip on these after getting the Learner’s Driver’s license. It’s literally night and day in comparison to India vs Canada.

c. People: In India, you really have to be subservient sometimes to those above you to get things- like politicians/party workers/cops etc. After having living in the UK for circa 4 years too, I feel Canada is much similar to the Great Britain in society and mindset- filled with people who shows respect towards each other (not necessarily care though).

d. Benefits: My wife and kids joined me a few months later, and she received approximately CAD $4,500 in her bank account after a few months which was termed as ‘Canada Child Benefits’. An amount of almost 1,000 bucks for 2 children above 7 to raise them is credited to our account on the 19th of every month- now it’s not that we cannot live with this, however a windfall amount like this certainly gives us an impetus to continue here.

e. Higher Learning: I got an admit to one of the best Universities here for a Master’s in Analytics, for which the fees is over 60k (for Domestic students and over 80k for International students). One would be surprised to learn that almost 60% of this is funded by the government when you apply (called the OSAP in Ontario). You get paid a combination of grants + loans, and is required to pay back only the loan portion of the borrowed amount. Now this applies for education to any University across the world, including Harvard or Oxbridge. This is the part I liked the most.

f. Schooling and Healthcare: As most might know here, these variables are free here albeit I sometimes concur with the Indian style of education which is more textbook-focused. Healthcare is free in every sense of the word- not a dime or penny for pregnancy/delivery OR cancer/heart conditions at all.

g. Access to homes/cars: A newcomer to Canada can purchase homes by only chipping in a just 5% of the total value of the property as opposed to others. The same applies for cars where one can find the very best in automobile brands(for some as low as nothing in interest to a maximum of 5%).

Glad to be of service to any Team-BHP who would need so.

Just a link for all of us to ponder over:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...most-toxic-air

[ritz3645]

Originally Posted by jacobvarughese

As someone who emigrated to Canada a little over 7 months ago, here were my reasons were as follows.

Hi Jacobvarughese,

You mentioned here that you are doing a company transfer/relocation from India to Canada. So why this going back to school/University ?
All education spend by domestic or international students is tax deductible in the entire life in Canada.

[jacobvarughese]

Originally Posted by ritz3645

Hi Jacobvarughese,

You mentioned here that you are doing a company transfer/relocation from India to Canada. So why this going back to school/University ?
All education spend by domestic or international students is tax deductible in the entire life in Canada.

Time to upskill- I am an ardent believer in lifelong learning, and no better time than now to get neck-deep in Analytics. It’s a ‘Work while you earn’ program, and as a result there are no opportunity costs lost. Btw I still am employed by the same stupendous firm here in Toronto too.