[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by basilmabraham

My first jobs in Australia have been in places where I was the only one from India, I took the initiative to integrate and it has been a good ride for me.

That might have helped you immensely. In such cases, the choices are very limited – either integrate or quit. I spent two years in Thailand very early in my work-life and situation was pretty much similar. My work place was quite far from the city, and even English was a rarity there

Originally Posted by basilmabraham

It is unfortunate that people do this and try to make little Kerala or India in a country that they have migrated to.

Cultural pockets are not a bad thing, and that happens with almost every other nationality groups; it gives that sense of connection to the roots. But it works better when it’s an inclusive group rather than an exclusive group. I know that watching a test match on Boxing Day with friends and families is a big deal for many Aussies. I got to know because I spent a few Christmas with my friend and his extended family from Melbourne. And a few of my friends have visited Kerala, attended my wedding, enjoyed the beaches, houseboats and seafood, and they have a new-found appreciation of the culture and geographies.

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

Emigration is not the solution for all your problems. It can solve some but will bring in new ones with it. If you don’t keep that open mind, you are bound to be disappointed.

This is a great point; many who move abroad not by choice, or as an escape route are bound to feel disappointed.

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

And every single person thinks that emigrating will make their kids successful in life. Far from the fact,as I have relatives who are third generation children in West. India is a third world country and it may remain so for some time, but if given a choice I will still wish to be born here. Let me tell you one thing Indians will be more successful than their Western counterparts if the pathetic education system is thrown out and something similar to Finnish system is introduced. For higher education, I would recommend Western universities.

Success is a very relative term. Currently I am in the process of switching her school and she asked me how I make a choice – I said I am looking for a place which makes her feel happy and help her to grow as a person – that defines success for me

[am1m]

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

The education system sucks except for Finland ( which I envy a lot ).

I'm really curious about this, I've heard that the Scandinavian countries have the best education system, but I always thought that most western school systems were better than the current state of school education here at home. I have no idea what is true factually, I've never studied abroad. Just curious. I know from friends who went for their Master's Degrees to US and UK universities after studying in the same school and college as I did, that the best and even 2nd tier universities in the West are far better than anything we have here. But I have no idea about the school system. Can anyone with comparative experience weigh in please.

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

And I haven’t even heard about any Indian who was raised in the West and made a very big impact in any sphere of life.

Again, very curious, because I understand that there are quite a few. Maybe I misunderstood the statement. Because if you meant that there are no Western citizens of Indian heritage who have made an impact then that's not accurate. Norah Jones, Manjul Bhargava, Jhumpa Lahiri are just three names that come to mind. And I'm sure a simple search will throw up a lot of names of people who were born and raised in the West with Indian parents and who did well in their selected field. Perhaps you meant to say something else.

[The Rationalist]

Originally Posted by vb-san

Success is a very relative term. Currently I am in the process of switching her school and she asked me how I make a choice – I said I am looking for a place which makes her feel happy and help her to grow as a person – that defines success for me

Appreciate your thoughts for the kid. By success, I didn’t mean material ones. I’m no where successful if measured in terms of material richness. I haven’t enrolled my daughter to school yet, and won’t till 6 at least. If I don’t find an acceptable school which is not focused on academic success, I won’t send her to rot in a sysytem where rote learning is what one achieves.

For me schools should be a place for acquring soft skills and appreciation for the people from all backgrounds and beliefs rather than flocking to a particular school where only people of similar strata come together. That will be burden later in life as society in practicality has people of all sorts.

Once the kids come out of their protected elite schools, they have to deal with all sorts of people. The kids are not at all street smart by any length of imagination. If a school doesn’t equip you for a practical life, what point does it serve?

The happiest man I ever met was a tribal man called ‘ Choriyan ‘, who had nothing but a small waist cloth to hide his body and a thatched hut. He was 65 when I first met him as a kid. Saw him till my teenage years. I learned that to be happy you don’t need anything . Don’t know whether he is still alive, but will be grateful to him for one of the biggest lessons in my life.

[selfdrive]

In terms of emigrating, I would say some other people are trying to pre empt the fact that their kids would move away later anyway. So they are trying to
be there already, to:
- try to ensure their kids are able to assimilate at an earlier age.
- avoid issues later with being left alone in India in their old age (with no family support or social security)

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

For me schools should be a place for acquring soft skills and appreciation for the people from all backgrounds and beliefs rather than flocking to a particular school where only people of similar strata come together. That will be burden later in life as society in practicality has people of all sorts.

Once the kids come out of their protected elite schools, they have to deal with all sorts of people. The kids are not at all street smart by any length of imagination. If a school doesn’t equip you for a practical life, what point does it serve?

I am not sure how schools are where you currently live. In Pune at least (probably all of Maharashtra), there is a ruling that mandates admission of children from lower income groups. These children are split across all divisions of that grade to avoid any further discrimination. This comes with its own set of challenges, but at least it allows the kids to mingle freely with other kids.

To answer your other concern, I have also seen some alternate methods of schooling recently. they have no standard books but more of practical work, perhaps like a self sustained village (for lack of of a better example). Kids can work on practical tools than just study theory all day. Again I do not have further details and anyway I would be going way off topic. I do feel there is a place and need for textbook knowledge even in today's world, though it need not be the end of all education. The way that I see it is that kids go to school to be literate; educating them is still our own task (regardless of which country we live in!)

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by The Rationalist

Having resisted all my life to emigrate to US/ UK where I could make at least 8-10 times my current pay, let me say one thing. Life is greener on the other side always.

My two paisa of advice is that you should taste working/doing business abroad. It will always broaden your horizons. Always. Every culture teaches you something and makes you a more cosmopolitan citizen of the world. If working abroad helps make you richer financially so much the better. Windows to improve your financial position come once in a while. Grab them. Financial soundness will give you greater flexibility in life. And being rich can also be married happily with high principles. You don't have to settle there for life but a 5 year stint will help all around.

If you are open minded and don’t force the education system in India down the throats of kids, then there is no dearth of opportunities in India. You need to have a plan.

For me schools should be a place for acquiring soft skills and appreciation for the people from all backgrounds and beliefs rather than flocking to a particular school where only people of similar strata come together. That will be burden later in life as society in practicality has people of all sorts.

Once the kids come out of their protected elite schools, they have to deal with all sorts of people. The kids are not at all street smart by any length of imagination. If a school doesn’t equip you for a practical life, what point does it serve?

The Indian education system has its many faults but is not completely rotten. Every one who emigrates out of India was trained by the Indian education system!! In my experience what a child learns about academics, about being wise (each child has his/her own inner wisdom), street smartness is 75% a function of the up bringing and ambience at home and by what the parents teach and do and only 25% by the school. Children imitate & learn from what we (their elders) do and not from what we preach. I am three kids old - all into adult hood now. There are middle path schools in India which you should investigate in your town. The grind of the Indian system has its own advantages in building your mental stamina and the patience to hold your frustrations! The soft skills and values you can teach as a parent are 10X anything a teacher can.

Emigration is not the solution for all your problems. It can solve some but will bring in new ones with it. If you don’t keep that open mind, you are bound to be disappointed.

bensb29, vb-san, selfdrive, basilmabraham, androdev,am1m have all given very wise responses. I would only reiterate what they have said that how you integrate is 99% dependent on you. I employ folks from 17 to 18 nationalities literally. All human beings are the same and have the same motivations and foibles and respond to appreciation, warmth, genuineness the same way. The way they talk or express or the manner of social interaction are different but beneath that we are all the same. Integrating with the Anglo-Saxon west is relatively easy compared to say Russia or North Africa. We Indians some of us at least get into Indian only circles because of our parochialism and fears and not because that other society is discriminating consciously.

[blacksport]

When you immigrate to the US or some place similar, you have two options.

1) Choose to live around Indian expats and don't mingle with the local population.
2) Live among the local population, follow their culture, take part in activities that they do.

Most Indians who emigrate stick to the first option. So you hang around with your Indian friends, visit the same Indian store, eat the same dal, curry and achaar, visit Niagara, make fun of western culture, make fun of how they dress, and boast around about the country you left behind. In short, If I choose this option, I choose to live among the same kind of dishonest, deceitful, uncouth, scheming people I decided to run away from.

It takes some effort to achieve the second option and I have hardly seen anybody doing that, and I was no better. You may eat with a fork and switch to toilet paper, but it is difficult to shake off what you are deep inside.

If your aim of emigrating is to make more money, have access to cleaner air, live in a safer place, the first option is good enough.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by blacksport

1) Choose to live around Indian expats and don't mingle with the local population.
2) Live among the local population, follow their culture, take part in activities that they do.

Choosing where to live, for people who have school age kids, is based primarily on good school districts. And there are two kinds of good school districts. Ones that have a large Indian (Asian to be more precise) population and others that have a high percentage of rich, elite upper class families. It is easy to guess where most Indian immigrants end up.

Also, Indian immigrants find living in an apartment more convenient, before they move into a single family home (although that may be changing with more HOAs coming up). Whereas most Americans prefer to live in single family homes.

But having said all that, it is not very difficult to mingle with other people. The key is to have a hobby and pursue it. Be it photography, local car clubs, or, in my case, cycling.

It is quite easy to make friends, just dont expect them to be at the same level as Indian friends. The concept of friendship is different between the two communities.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by amitoj

But having said all that, it is not very difficult to mingle with other people. The key is to have a hobby and pursue it. Be it photography, local car clubs, or, in my case, cycling.

It is quite easy to make friends, just dont expect them to be at the same level as Indian friends. The concept of friendship is different between the two communities.

Very true. Indulge in your hobby, find groups, and keep an open mind. Suddenly you realise mingling isn't that hard. After all, we are all human, and share similar emotions/passions.

[AltoLXI]

An interesting analysis on Quora here after categorising the life cycle of immigrants into four different generic phases (Transform, Settle, Growth and Suffer)

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

An interesting analysis on Quora here after categorising the life cycle of immigrants into four different generic phases (Transform, Settle, Growth and Suffer)

Thank you for sharing. Made very interesting reading. The young man has tried to bring some science to it. Some of the answers have wisdom to them. Some burp out the clichéd responses. One respondent interestingly observes that few business people from India migrate to USA/West and the immigrants are dominated by the service class professionals. I found that interesting given that it is the business community in India (of which I am one) who face the full brunt of our bureaucracy, corruption, delays and weak infrastructure - the very reasons people state as what drove them to migrate.

It reminded me of a famous essay written in 1985 by RK Narayan. Link here http://comedy.rajiv.com/rkn.htm I read it as a young man

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

An interesting analysis on Quora here after categorising the life cycle of immigrants into four different generic phases (Transform, Settle, Growth and Suffer)

Funny article. Calls it a survey but denies having followed any scientific methods. Suspicious sample size too. In the end, comes across as someone with a pre-formed opinion trying to tailor fit a small sample size to his narrow view of the problem.

"Every NRI looks like a happy person from outside but everyone has a dark side story to tell from inside of their heart."

It would be easy to make the same claim to every Indian living in India as well.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by amitoj

Funny article. Calls it a survey but denies having followed any scientific methods. Suspicious sample size too. In the end, comes across as someone with a pre-formed opinion trying to tailor fit a small sample size to his narrow view of the problem.

Spot on! That's that first thing I noticed too. His sampling method is very spurious, he just went with what is convenient.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

It reminded me of a famous essay written in 1985 by RK Narayan. Link here http://comedy.rajiv.com/rkn.htm I read it as a young man

Great article, applicable even now. I know many relatives and friends who are examples of this.

This article reminds me another famous article that was making rounds in the 90s in the Indian Internet news groups. It was written by Dr. M. Vidyasagar who returned to India in 1989, and joined Centre for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics in Bangalore. He went on to be director of DRDO, reporting directly to Abdul Kalam.

http://www.utdallas.edu/~mxv091000/scit.html

[roby_dk]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

An interesting analysis on Quora here after categorising the life cycle of immigrants into four different generic phases (Transform, Settle, Growth and Suffer)

Nicely written with some good points to consider before migrating to foreign land. As per my experience with some close friends and family members I can easily say that 90% of them confessed that they are not happy living in U.S but due to one or the other reasons they can't come back to India.

India is a land of opportunities and with cheap labour and resources we can have a better life style. I can work hard in my field or area of expertise and afford all sort of convenience in India but the same is not possible in foreign land. Security services, car wash, housekeeping, baby sitter, plumber and the list is very long. All of these are readily available in India so in my books live life king-size can be achieved easily in India as compared to other developed countries.

[navin_bhp]

I'll enjoy living in India when cheap labor becomes fair labor. As long as there are people who take advantage of the poorness of others the country is less pleasent to live on. Although my ego would not let me give up my country anytime my heart wants to express the truth sometimes. I wish poeple are honest and respected each other a little more no matter what their occupation is and how much wealth they have. Emigrating to a foreign country gives you an opportunity to realize the good and bad values of the home country. I've been liveing in the US for 9 years now and all I miss from India is the great food.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by navin_bhp

I'll enjoy living in India when cheap labor becomes fair labor. As long as there are people who take advantage of the poorness of others the country is less pleasent to live on. Although my ego would not let me give up my country anytime my heart wants to express the truth sometimes. I wish poeple are honest and respected each other a little more no matter what their occupation is and how much wealth they have. Emigrating to a foreign country gives you an opportunity to realize the good and bad values of the home country. I've been liveing in the US for 9 years now and all I miss from India is the great food.

Amen to that. I say the same to people who keep praising the cheap labor and domestic help they use in India. Most such people wouldnt have the same domestic help share the table with them over a meal. I am sure there will be some who would come and say that they do, but lets not forget that's more an exception, rather than the norm.

Dignity of labor is the need of the hour, and pretending otherwise wont help us move forward.