[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Simple Sir, none of them has got as many chances to Play as Mr SRT & those India/Pakistan/SL do have scored Hundreds in india at will. Mr Jayasuriya is case study in that . Problem with us is that We always think from heart and let Our heads wander in deserts .

You make it sound like SRT has been given some exclusive right to play for the country for 23 years or to play more games than others. He has played for 23 years because he could keep up his motivation, hard work, fitness and results for 23 years.

Interesting you bring up Jayasuriya. Yes, Jayasuriya scored many hundreds during a certain phase in his career (from 1996 to about 2004/5 - hardly 10 years). What about before and after that? He too has had a career almost as long as SRT's (22 years). IIRC, at one point, he was even the most capped ODI player with about 440 ODI's. Are their records comparable?

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Not At All Sir , They is no Blind hatred,In fact, I appreciate him for carrying the burden of billion expectation on his shoulders but some where he is loosing that respect in my books. He is Sounding like a typical politician who must stick to his chair by either hook or crook. I firmly believe in Rules laid Out by Mother Nature & One such rule is "All Good Things Must End". That;s how Genes & whole human race has evolved. Until he steps Down, the Likes of Rohit and Pujara will never get a chance to prove themselves.

Yes, all good things must end. If SRT is not good enough to warrant a place in the team, drop him - no matter whether he wants to keep playing or not. But, don't drop him only because he's 39 years old or because India won the World Cup or because he scored 100 centuries.

Rohit Sharma: He needs chance to prove himself? I think he's already proven a few things. Kohli, who made it to the team after Rohit, has gone a long long way ahead of him. Kohli earned it through his performances. Meanwhile Rohit has failed to convert his chances and has fallen behind.

Pujara: He got one chance and did well. Unfortunately, he was sidelined due to injury, IIRC. I haven't followed his domestic form, but if it's good, I think he should be given more chances.

I think Kohli's form and his consistent performances played a part in Rahul Dravid's retirement - maybe Rahul thought Kohli is a good replacement for him. Is it the senior players' fault that the other youngsters are not able to put the same kind of pressure on senior players (and the selectors) through their performances?

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Finally if you think Sachin has only scored on flat tracks - hats off to your intelligence. Statistics seem to suggest otherwise, for he has been our best batsman on tough away tours (in SA and Aus). But then, stats dont matter for you, only perceptions do.

Now this is a Problem . I see your post above more of as a Emotional outburst than anything . I have already re-iterated that we always thinks from Our heart and let our heads wander no where. I sited name of Rohit and Pujara As a example. i was not being specific. there are many More talented players playing in domestic cricket. One cannot continue playing just on the basis of stats.

I don;t believe in stats for simple reason " they will show your Past deeds But it;s the future which matters "

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Interesting you bring up Jayasuriya. Yes, Jayasuriya scored many hundreds during a certain phase in his career (from 1996 to about 2004/5 - hardly 10 years). What about before and after that? He too has had a career almost as long as SRT's (22 years). IIRC, at one point, he was even the most capped ODI player with about 440 ODI's. Are their records comparable?

And you forget that jayasuriya was kicked Out unceremoniously from team by selectors. Here same cannot be done B,cause Selectors know that emotional fools that we are " there will be riots on streets " .

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Yes, all good things must end. If SRT is not good enough to warrant a place in the team, drop him - no matter whether he wants to keep playing or not. But, don't drop him only because he's 39 years old or because India won the World Cup or because he scored 100 centuries.

I think Kohli's form and his consistent performances played a part in Rahul Dravid's retirement - maybe Rahul thought Kohli is a good replacement for him. Is it the senior players' fault that the other youngsters are not able to put the same kind of pressure on senior players (and the selectors) through their performances?

Sachin didn ;t won the word cup single by himself. It was a team effort. if he was such a complete player what about the world cup where we were out in first round of world cup. In another world cup final, He could n;t won us the world cup, where as in same match Sehwag scored some 80+ runs in his usual fashion. he was part of team than also. when he was not sacked at that time , why would he be sacked this time and if he was such a Accomplished player , why his average drops down to 38.12 in 4th innings. Some thing where Like of Laxman stand out . That;s why i said I don;t believe in Stats much . They always Show the Good Side.

No Doubt he has build a Aura around himself and he know pretty well that he cannot be budged from his seat.

Note From Team-BHP Support Team: Please avoid putting up consecutive posts. use the 'EDIT' function instead. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

And you forget that jayasuriya was kicked Out unceremoniously from team by selectors. Here same cannot be done B,cause Selectors know that emotional fools that we are " there will be riots on streets " .

And you forget that they brought him back too - after he "unretired".

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Sachin didn ;t won the word cup single by himself. It was a team effort. if he was such a complete player what about the world cup where we were out in first round of world cup.

Ok, so when we win it's a team effort. When we lose it's down to only one player not being complete - SRT? Great logic.

Yes, I agree it's a team effort. Not everyone can perform in every game - all the time. Everyone says he didn't do well in the WC final. What about his performances on the way to the final - in both 2003 & 2011 World Cups? His performances helped India to get to the final. Don't those performances matter?

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

if he was such a Accomplished player , why his average drops down to 38.12 in 4th innings. Some thing where Like of Laxman stand out . That;s why i said I don;t believe in Stats much . They always Show the Good Side.

Again, a case of using statistics selectively to further your own agenda, while saying in the same sentence that you don't believe in statistics.

Laxman's 4th innings avg is 40.55. Is that that so much more accomplished than 38.12? I could also ask what's Laxman doing in the first innings, where he avergaes 38.xx compared to SRT's 53.xx? First innings doesn't matter?

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

And you forget that they brought him back too - after he "unretired".

He was Bought back, so that he can announce his retirement, As they say , a honorable exit.

Originally Posted by StarrySky

Ok, so when we win it's a team effort. When we lose it's down to only one player not being complete - SRT? Great logic.
Yes, I agree it's a team effort. Not everyone can perform in every game - all the time. Everyone says he didn't do well in the WC final. What about his performances on the way to the final - in both 2003 & 2011 World Cups? His performances helped India to get to the final. Don't those performances matter?
gain, a case of using statistics selectively to further your own agenda, while saying in the same sentence that you don't believe in statistics.

People portray him as a One Man army. Above were pointed out only to prove that it;s the team which win;s or losses a match.

anyways, This is a never ending argument. I am off it.

[Daewood]

Originally Posted by HorsPwr

For the records, I am a BIG Tendulkar fan and cannot stand the fact that he has been critisized so badly probably for the first time in his carrier.

+1
Any Sachin fan who is not blinded by emotions, will want his beloved GOD to quit when he is at the top.
No true Sachin fan would want to see his GOD being hit on the helmet repeatedly in the past year,
on flat sub-continent pitches and appear like a novice.
Hope Sachin takes takes it as a sign of his diminishing reflexes and make a decision soon.

[HorsPwr]

Originally Posted by Daewood

+1
Any Sachin fan who is not blinded by emotions, will want his beloved GOD to quit when he is at the top.
No true Sachin fan would want to see his GOD being hit on the helmet repeatedly in the past year,
on flat sub-continent pitches and appear like a novice.
Hope Sachin takes takes it as a sign of his diminishing reflexes and make a decision soon.

Probably, thats what I meant my dear friend. i.e., Though, I am a BIG Tendulkar fan, I would still want him to quit ODIs at least now given the criticism he is facing, and obviously, the critics have all the right in the world to say given his past performances.

If Sachin were to be a true Team Man, he has to quit now and make way for younger legs - Rehane comes to my mind on the onset as an opener.

[PPS]

Originally Posted by carboy

Check out the amount of catches Dravid has dropped in the slips in the last 2 years or so. On the average he drops 1 catch a match.

Yes you are correct there. Infact in his press conference he admitted that it was something which bothered him!

[carboy]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

Now this is a Problem . I see your post above more of as a Emotional outburst than anything . I have already re-iterated that we always thinks from Our heart and let our heads wander no where. I sited name of Rohit and Pujara As a example. i was not being specific. there are many More talented players playing in domestic cricket. One cannot continue playing just on the basis of stats.

Yes - there are tons of talented players just flying out of all corners. That's why it took us 4 years to find a permanent replacement for Ganguly. If there were lots of talented players at least 2 would have established themselves in the last 2 years, one in place of Ganguly & 1 who would have done well whenever VVS, Dravid or SRT were injured or not playing.

Australia at their peak had such a bench strength. Check the career of someone like Damien Martyn - every time one of the main players were injured, Martyn would be picked and would do very well, but would have to be dropped when the injured player returned. He did this for years before some one retired & he could find a firm spot. We have no such talent waiting. All we have are flat track T20 champions.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Why Jan 2009? Sachin & Dravid are within career 500 runs (since they both started playing together) and hence some other date would throw a different picture.
But for the sake of statistics, from the time both started playing together, between 20 June 1996 to 27 March 2012:

So overall, in the period both played, I would still say Dravid is a better Test batsman than Sachin. That doesn't mean Sachin is inferior. It is just that he is short by 300~400 runs in about 13,000+ runs.

Not to take anything away from Dravid, but did you also check how many matches/innings each of them played in this period?

[shankar.balan]

Dont you guys think that Sachin should shut shop with dignity when he is still on top? Personally I think he is getting both greedy as well as slightly megalomaniacal by refusing to buzz off - as an exponent of the "gentleman's game" I think he should move over and give the other talented youngsters a chance before they grow too old.
However, this does not look likely - chances are that he will still be hanging around after hitting the wrong side of 40 and Boom go the chances of any budding player to get in that team!

[carboy]

Originally Posted by msdivy

So overall, in the period both played, I would still say Dravid is a better Test batsman than Sachin.

Dravid has 2 100's in 33 tests vs Australia.
SRT has 11 100's in 35 tests vs Australia.

Dravid averages 39 vs Australia in tests.
SRT averages 57 vs Australia in tests.

Dravid averages 42 in Australia in tests.
SRT averages 53 in Australia in tests.

Dravid averages 30 in South Africa in tests.
SRT averages 47 in South Africa in tests.

Dravid has 1 100 in 11 tests played in South Africa.
SRT has 5 100s in 15 tests played in South Africa.

Yes, Dravid is the far superior batsman.

[lloydofcochin]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Dont you guys think that Sachin should shut shop with dignity when he is still on top? Personally I think he is getting both greedy as well as slightly megalomaniacal by refusing to buzz off - as an exponent of the "gentleman's game" I think he should move over and give the other talented youngsters a chance before they grow too old.
However, this does not look likely - chances are that he will still be hanging around after hitting the wrong side of 40 and Boom go the chances of any budding player to get in that team!

What is wrong in Sachin playing well in to the 40's? You cannot force anyone to retire and if he is performing what is wrong in selecting him?

If he is not performing it is up to the selectors to drop him and if he wishes to go back to domestic Cricket and come back to the team scoring runs so be it? What is wrong in that? And regarding youngsters - They should force their way in to the team on sheer weight of performances. Kohli is a glowing example and now since Dravid has retired you have another opening in the Test team. Hope either Pujara or Rohit Sharma nails that place. And I liked what I saw of Rahane. In the coming months he will also surely get his fair share of chances.

Age should not be a criterion. I feel Sachin was a bit unlucky not to score more runs in the last few matches. Remember form is temporary and class is permanent

NB: As a genuine Indian Cricket fan I would be more worried about our bowling stocks.

[shankar.balan]

Age has nothing to do with it. The fact that the man is at the top of his career and the fact that he took a couple of ice ages to hit that last ton leads me to believe that now is a good time for him to buzz off and let some fresh blood in!
I think these fellows can all take a leaf out of the books of real great cricketers such as Bradman etc, who retired with grace. Same with Dravid - I think he is a gentleman. By inference I also think all these creatures who wish to hang in there by a thread (not Sachin maybe, but many others), are not quite as I described Dravid - in my considered, personal opinion that is - no intent to give offence here.

Originally Posted by lloydofcochin

What is wrong in Sachin playing well in to the 40's? You cannot force anyone to retire and if he is performing what is wrong in selecting him?

If he is not performing it is up to the selectors to drop him and if he wishes to go back to domestic Cricket and come back to the team scoring runs so be it? What is wrong in that? And regarding youngsters - They should force their way in to the team on sheer weight of performances. Kohli is a glowing example and now since Dravid has retired you have another opening in the Test team. Hope either Pujara or Rohit Sharma nails that place. And I liked what I saw of Rahane. In the coming months he will also surely get his fair share of chances.

Age should not be a criterion. I feel Sachin was a bit unlucky not to score more runs in the last few matches. Remember form is temporary and class is permanent

NB: As a genuine Indian Cricket fan I would be more worried about our bowling stocks.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by carboy

Yes, Dravid is the far superior batsman.

Dravid is a far superior batsman because he is a far better team player. He kept wickets when asked to. He batted at any position, from 1 to 8, whichever seemed to be better for the team. At his retirement, he said that it was the catches that he was dropping that hurt him the most. Needless to say he saw that as detrimental to the team. Contrast that with Sachin who will only bat as an opener in ODIs and number 4 in tests, no matter what the situation of rest of the team.

Yes Dravid was a far better player.

[lloydofcochin]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Age has nothing to do with it. The fact that the man is at the top of his career and the fact that he took a couple of ice ages to hit that last ton leads me to believe that now is a good time for him to buzz off and let some fresh blood in!
I think these fellows can all take a leaf out of the books of real great cricketers such as Bradman etc, who retired with grace. Same with Dravid - I think he is a gentleman. By inference I also think all these creatures who wish to hang in there by a thread (not Sachin maybe, but many others), are not quite as I described Dravid - in my considered, personal opinion that is - no intent to give offence here.

Shankar, For Sachin Cricket has been his life. I'm sure that he wouldn't overstay his welcome. He would have given thought to it and I'm sure he would call it a day with dignity when he is still good enough