[harry10]

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

Will they ask Jadeja to open?

Woakes was brilliant. Even if we manage to make 300 in this innings, I doubt our bowlers can defend 200. Barring Umesh and to an extent Bumrah, bowling looked quite average. Maybe it's the pitch playing easy.

[Ragavsr]

Originally Posted by harry10

So, you want Rahul to open the batting, make runs and then keep for 100 plus overs.

Go through my post again, where did you get the idea of making KL Rahul open the innings and keep too?

If Mayank comes in instead of Pant, he opens with Rohit and KL Rahul drops to 5 or 6. And you would you want to play 2 spinners in Jadeja and Ashwin when even one isn't necessary. Just because you have the world's best spinner (that shows how much the art of spin bowling has died), doesn't mean you have to play him in conditions unfit for spin. Frankly, if Hardik Pandya was fit, quite sure he would have taken the place of Jadeja.

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

English players deal with pace bowling day in and day out. It’s the top class spin they are not comfortable with and India didn’t play Ashwin at the most spin friendly pitch of England.

They deal with swing bowling day in and out. If they dealt with pace bowling well, they wouldn't return frightened after every tour down under facing the likes of Johnson, Starc and Cummins. If there is something the current crop of Indian batsman have done well and improved over the golden generation, it's their performance down under, batting on fast bouncy pitches. That, combined with the now world class fast bowling India has, capable of picking 20 wickets, is what has enabled India to win down under twice.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by Ragavsr

Go through my post again, where did you get the idea of making KL Rahul open the innings and keep too?

If Mayank comes in instead of Pant, he opens with Rohit and KL Rahul drops to 5 or 6. And you would you want to play 2 spinners in Jadeja and Ashwin when even one isn't necessary. Just because you have the world's best spinner (that shows how much the art of spin bowling has died), doesn't mean you have to play him in conditions unfit for spin. Frankly, if Hardik Pandya was fit, quite sure he would have taken the place of Jadeja.




They deal with swing bowling day in and out. If they dealt with pace bowling well, they wouldn't return frightened after every tour down under facing the likes of Johnson, Starc and Cummins. If there is something the current crop of Indian batsman have done well and improved over the golden generation, it's their performance down under, batting on fast bouncy pitches. That, combined with the now world class fast bowling India has, capable of picking 20 wickets, is what has enabled India to win down under twice.

Ok, so now you suggest we should remove our successful opener and the only person who has scored a century this tour and make him bat at 5-6. So we should fix something which isn't broken and break the only thing which is actually working in the batting order i.e opening partnership.

And now you don't want even one spinner in the team. No matter in WTC final on a green top it was the spinner only who was effective more than our Pacers.
Brilliant.

And what has our batting achieved? On Australia tour too it was Pant and lower order rescuing them again and again. Kohli, Pujara and Rahane have been flopping since 2019. Only Rohit has improved but he still isn't able to make big hundreds in SENA countries. Here too only Rahul and Rohit are doing well and everyone else is on a holiday. It's our bowling which keeps lifting our game otherwise we will be losing big every match. Till the time changes aren't done in middle order we will keep struggling in batting.

[KPR]

Can we see a surprise in sending Pant or Jadeja at 1 or 2 down to score some quick runs and to wipe out deficit ? No harm in trying that way. The famous trio in middle order are nothing but a waste baggage now.

[VWAllstar]

Originally Posted by KPR

Can we see a surprise in sending Pant or Jadeja at 1 or 2 down to score some quick runs and to wipe out deficit ? No harm in trying that way. The famous trio in middle order are nothing but a waste baggage now.

Play everyone possible above Rahane.

Pujara
Kohli
Pant
Jadeja
Rahane
Bhumrah

[Ragavsr]

Originally Posted by harry10

No matter in WTC final on a green top it was the spinner only who was effective more than our Pacers.
Brilliant.

And what has our batting achieved? On Australia tour too it was Pant and lower order rescuing them again and again. Kohli, Pujara and Rahane have been flopping since 2019.

There is no way that a counter argument to the fact that Rahane, Pujara and Kohli are flopping since 2019 could be presented. We are in a situation similar to Ganguly was in 2004-5 where his batting returns had faded dramatically and like Kohli, he was far big a character to be stripped away from captaincy or be dropped.As far as Australia goes, the current crop average well in Australia the last series not withstanding.

The WTC final had good performances from Ashwin yes, but an extra pacer would have been useful considering Bumrah was really off color in the game and had a terrible game. He is human after all and one off occurrences are bound to happen.

The question with the opening partnership is that what do you do once Shubman Gill is back? The opening partnership has gotten runs in England after a really really long time and Rohit regardless of the partner he has been with , has managed to give starts and last 15-20 overs which most other openers be it Dhawan, Murali Vijay , KL Rahul or Mayank or Prithvi Shaw had been struggling to do in SeNA countries. Glad that the weakest link in the batting (the opening partnership) has turned strong and has become the Savior in the series.The gamble of making Rohit open has paid off and it's a matter of time before he gets a hundred.

[harry10]

Originally Posted by VWAllstar

Play everyone possible above Rahane.

Pujara
Kohli
Pant
Jadeja
Rahane
Bhumrah

How can You forget our Savior Lord Thakur. I don't mind Rahane even playing at 11. Even Umesh showed better application than him to stay with Thakur.

Kidding apart we should play the batting order as it is. Rahane should bat 5, if he fails then he fails. Jaddu should stick to 7 where he has been so successful, he didn't look comfortable at all on no.5. All I want from Pant is to apply some street smart brain which has brought him so much success. He must realise by now that test match isn't a slogging fest.

Originally Posted by Ragavsr

The question with the opening partnership is that what do you do once Shubman Gill is back? The opening partnership has gotten runs in England after a really really long time and Rohit regardless of the partner he has been with , has managed to give starts and last 15-20 overs which most other openers be it Dhawan, Murali Vijay , KL Rahul or Mayank or Prithvi Shaw had been struggling to do in SeNA countries. Glad that the weakest link in the batting (the opening partnership) has turned strong and has become the Savior in the series.The gamble of making Rohit open has paid off and it's a matter of time before he gets a hundred.

See Kohli can't be dropped. Not just cos he is the Captain but he is the best test Bat in the team current form notwithstanding. He has shown with last 2 50's of some form returning so there is still hope for him. Pujara too can grit it out at times although his time is also up. But Rahane has to be dropped and Mayank/Vihari/Sky should be given a chance in his place.

Opening partnership is sealed for next couple of series barring injury. Gill if played has to come in middle order, maybe at 3 in place of Pujara. He is too good a talent to be wasted on bench. Bad thing is we don't have a test series for a long time after this and even if we lose this all will be forgotten by then and Pujara, Rahane will still make their way back

[msdivy]

I am disinterested in whether either Ashwin or Jadeja or both play. It is up to the team management to select the best playing XI. But trying the same combination when it is not working & failing when better alternatives are available defies any cricketing sense. If the current captain was CEO of a company, the board would have fired him for not using the available resources effectively and then underperforming.

Originally Posted by whencut86

As long as Indian top 5 Indian batsmen don't contribute big, Ashwin will most likely not find place in this team.

If our top 5 are in fluent form, then we can include Ashwin in place of Jadeja and go with 4 seamers. But the management is right in this case in not picking Ashwin purely because of our batting woes.

Why a bowler's place is dependent on the form of the batsmen? Even if you say a bowler with a better batting record should play, that's Ashwin. He has a better record in Tests than Jadeja.
Ashwin


Jadeja

In these conditions, people like Jadeja, Shardul and Pant can score quickly and turn the game on its head.

What strategy is that in Tests to rely on pinch hitters to put a decent score? BTW in these conditions, the batsmen you mention are walking wickets.

Jadeja and Shardul have better contributions with the bat compared to Ashwin.

That is in limited-overs cricket, where Jadeja is the finisher. Not in tests.

Ashwin has only one Sydney test match saving knock to his credit.

While Ashwin's test record proves otherwise, how many does Jadeja have to his credit?

Ashwin is India's best spinner no doubt, but he is nowhere in the leagues of Warne or Muralitharan.

Where does Jadeja stand in this respect?

We should have gone with 4 or 5 seamers in the WTC final.

The team management messed up, isn't it? They landed in WTC final fresh out of IPL quarantine and without any practice matches. In contrast, NZ had just finished a test series against England and got their tactics right.
Here is the scorecard for reference.

The NZ tail had a blast against Ashwin and Jadeja scoring runs quickly and getting a lead.

I see the economic rate of Ashwin in that match at 1.86 & 1.70 in the 1st & 2nd innings. Where did he leak runs?

Our management/BCCI needs to have a good hard talk to the top order batsmen. Time to ask them to pack up and give way for youngsters if they don't perform.

Is this Kohli XI or BCCI XI the management selecting? This is the 1st time I am hearing the selecting committee checking on player on whether the players plan to perform or not.

If Kohli as the top batsmen in the team can't contribute in away wins, Kohli the captain is always going to look like a loud-mouthed, boorish and overtly aggressive guy.

Whatever Kohli's behaviour is, that doesn't make runs for the team or get the win. Earlier Indian teams had good batsmen and weak away bowling attacks. The current Indian cricket team has a top-class bowling attack. Kohli is underachieving with excellent resources at his disposal since he is unable to get above his favoritism.

[PPS]

Can clearly see the likes of Bumrah & Siraj are tired after playing 4 Tests in 6 weeks! Its only because of our bowlers that we are somewhat alive in this series. There's just no swing on offer for the likes of Shardul to make any impact, just hope there isn't any cloud cover today when we bat. Umesh Yadav picked up wickets but he leaked runs too. India badly missed Shami in this match, looked like a hit the deck kinda pitch. Its difficult to see India levelling the series thanks to their 'bull headed' approach of playing 5 bowlers & not plugging their weakness by playing the 6th batsman.

[Ragavsr]

Originally Posted by harry10

Opening partnership is sealed for next couple of series barring injury. Gill if played has to come in middle order, maybe at 3 in place of Pujara. He is too good a talent to be wasted on bench. Bad thing is we don't have a test series for a long time after this and even if we lose this all will be forgotten by then and Pujara, Rahane will still make their way back

In a long series like this, where a bowler / batsman has been performing poorly, it's important to atleast drop the player temporarily and play someone else for the last test if Pujara and Rahane don't score int his innings. Virat in 2014 England tour was in a similar phase and deserved a break.

Sometimes, your mind gets jaded after a string of failures and a break does a lot of good, similar to overstretched workers going on a vacation. I don't really mind Rahane and Pujara being back for the SA tour, but you don't lose anything by dropping them for the 5th test. A Vihari or SKY is good enough to score 20-25 runs per innings which is what the trio have been averaging.

[redCherry]

Originally Posted by whencut86

In these conditions, people like Jadeja, Shardul and Pant can score quickly and turn the game on its head.

Oh, this is test match we are talking about....that idea won't work in test cricket, definitely not in England in these conditions and not when the team is 4 or 5 down for nothing

Originally Posted by whencut86

Can't expect Pant to always rescue us when our top order doesn't put a price to their wickets. He has contributed to more Indian wins of late than any other top order batsmen in this current Indian team.

No, not in this series! Actually his batting has done more damage to the team's cause than helping it

Kohli is playing him as a proper batsman at no. 6, not as wk-batsman, so he should be playing like a proper middle order batsman does, not as a pinch-hitter when the team is 4 or 5 down for nothing.

Coach/Captain should make him realize he's batting against a red cherry, not a white ball, so accordingly the tactics should change, for team's cause.
Yes he's young & talented, but he needs some pep talk, for sure. For his own good, for his' team's good.

[VWAllstar]

Originally Posted by redCherry

Coach/Captain should make him realize he's batting against a red cherry, not a white ball, so accordingly the tactics should change, for team's cause.
Yes he's young & talented, but he needs some pep talk, for sure. For his own good, for his' team's good.

Coach & Captain have given him his "Space" and letting him play his game. I wonder if thats how it is suppose to be then a Coach's job is redundant.

Very rightly said that Pant need to bat like a proper middle order batsman does. He is more of a batsman who has improved on his wicket keeping skills. He is been played over Saha only for his batting ability.

[NPV]

Rahul out on 46, after playing a good knock.
India 83/1, which is effectively minus 16/1 due to England's 99 run lead.

Will this open the flood gates with a procession that has been quite familiar and predictable for India in recent times? I think this is the game to show that the middle order is not spineless, here's another opportunity to prove just that!

[VWAllstar]

For those who think the opening pair need to be changed:
"KL Rahul and Rohit Sharma have batted out 985 balls for the first wicket (20.3 overs at an average) in this series. Only one opening pair batted longer in a Test series in England since 1999."

Courtesy: Cricinfo.

Given our middle order is a sitting duck, these two have provided the much needed time in the middle with few important runs. Keeping my fingers crossed for Rohit Sharma to score a century in this match.

[SoumenD]

Wow what a way to get to century. Rohit hits a 6 to get to his maiden test century overseas.

So effectively we are 97/1. India looks in strong position. From here I feel its India’s game to loose.