[KL01toKA03]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

4. If re-tarring was a scam as per you, re-scaling (lines to keep the surface rough will replace that). I'd prefer the former because re-scaling or repairing dug up sections of White topping is tougher and more expensive that re-tarring (digging up new roads isn't stopping anytime soon).

Another related point is the time and effort taken for white topping. For completing the white topping, major roads were closed without repairing the alternative roads. I used to commute to my office in Whitefield from Nagwara daily by managing the work timings. White topping made life hell, and I ended up with a commute exceeding 3 hours daily. This forced me to find a job closer to my home. Not everyone will be that lucky.

I think repairs will also require closure of roads for an extended duration. Compared to that, asphalting has a quick turnaround time. It is also easier and cheaper to repair.

[poloman]

Originally Posted by theredliner

TBH, Bengaluru doesn't receive huge bursts of rainfall like the coastal cities to warrant white topping. ORR in spite of carrying so much traffic including big buses and heavy NH trucks didn't require yearly maintenance. It just doesn't justify spending 10x the amount to white top when the same stretch could be asphalted for 20 years at 2 years frequency. The countless hours spent by thousands of vehicles wasting all that fuel would have cost the economy quite a bit too.

When it rains it rains really hard in Bangalore. ORR is notorious for water logging and huge volumes of traffic.

White topping is not a phenomenon limited to Bangalore. Most of roads including freeways in US are concretised. Even in India not only in cities, go to villages in many states and you will see a lot of concrete roads. Every technique will have pros and cons. Why can't we give some time to see how this turns out. As usual, some so-called experts with vested interests will spread fake narratives. Contractor mafia is one of the biggest in Bangalore. Ever wondered why BBMP is not using plastic waste in road construction. Only due to the reason it has better longevity. Retarring mafia does not allow this.

Agree that It just doesn't justify spending 10x the amount to white top when the same stretch could be asphalted for 20 years at 2 years frequency. But in many roads asphalting is not happening even for decades forget 2 years. Retarring mostly happens in paper or even if it happens, will have some construction debris dumped in potholes with 5 mm of bitumen added on the top. I am not exaggerating. This happened in my layout and all it took was a mild shower to wash it away. All the efforts and follow-ups with authorities for months and back to square one. But in records, the road was tarred with perfection.

Regarding wasted time on the commute, metro construction is happening for years now. This has created huge bottlenecks across the city. For the greater good, we may have to tolerate a little inconvenience today.

[vinair]

Bangalore is a lovely city and will remain the same forever, no doubt. This is the only place where people still understand multiple languages (hindi and English atleast) and are approachable come what may.

Stray incidents do happen in all the cities around the world. Bangalore is no exception, let's not blame Bangalore or any other city in entirety for that matter for one sour experience.

When you are in a new place, just groove with the crowd, unless you know how to really stand your ground to get things done. 'My land, my law', this is a human tendency, there is no right or wrong in it, wholly depends which side of the line you stand.

People of this place are the most accommodative I have ever seen. However, there is a limit on how much you can push things. Personally, I see there is a very big difference in the attitude of people from each state. Some gel with the locals, some just don't. This is the real difference.

Now, violence in any form has no place in a civilized society. However, what we forget is how civilized are we when we are put in a situation.

[theredliner]

Originally Posted by poloman

When it rains it rains really hard in Bangalore. ORR is notorious for water logging and huge volumes of traffic.

TBH, the North - East stretches of ORR (the stretch I'm most familiar with) didn't have major waterlogging problems barring a few underpasses. That definitely has become worse now.

Why can't we give some time to see how this turns out. As usual, some so-called experts with vested interests will spread fake narratives. Contractor mafia is one of the biggest in Bangalore.

To see how it turns out, it should have been taken up as a pilot project on a small stretch, especially on an expenditure of a grand scale like this. That is exactly what the experts from IISc have mentioned in their bashings as well. Now we have spent 36000 million INR (500m USD) on the project. We'd have to live with it no matter what. If it is the usual BBMP quality, all of it is down the drain.

Regarding wasted time on the commute, metro construction is happening for years now. This has created huge bottlenecks across the city. For the greater good, we may have to tolerate a little inconvenience today.

One major point you are missing is that metro will take a significant number of vehicles off the road and is worth enduring all the pain for. White topping on the other hand, returns the infrastructure in the same state as before (the surface may become a little better, but asphalting does all that too without so much delays and expenditure). It doesn't take any vehicles off the road, nor does it ease congestion like with flyovers/underpasses. There are absolutely no gains that I have seen after enduring 1.5 years of congestion and the resultant poisonous fumes inhaled.

[ashokrajagopal]

Its a very unfortunate incident indeed.

As a migrant to Bengaluru, the language problem has hit me many times in the past. Over the course I did learn a little bit of Kannada. Usually if the locals see you trying to speak in Kannada and fail, they are very sympathetic, as opposed to free flowing Hindi. Learnt this after a couple of road rage incidents.

As a side note, ever since I started driving in Bangalore, my instruction to the wife has been "If you see me end up in a road rage quarrel, quietly slip out of the car with child or parents as is the case, catch an auto and clear off. Dont be my weakness"

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ShivrajG

in this case I gave him 3 clear punches Chin, Cheek and nose which left him bleeding and shocked.

I think this is what turned the crowd and the police against you. His injuries made him the victim, and worthy of all the sympathy.

[deehunk]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I think this is what turned the crowd and the police against you. His injuries made him the victim, and worthy of all the sympathy.

He cannot claim to be a victim after punching someone to bleed, don't know if it makes sense to show sympathy or allow this kind of posts promoting violence. He is still lucky to be writing posts here, else he would have been behind the bars.

[Jaggu]

Moderator note: The topic has been discussed in great details with diverse valid opinions coming in. Even the author has agreed things could have been better handled.

Having said that, we appreciate the author sharing this unfortunate experience with all of us; so that we are once again reminded about the nuances of living in a diverse and fast developing country like India. Let us also remind ourselves not to offend OR generalise an opinion about one region, community or section of people in our own country... just because of few rotten apples in the society.

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by poloman

I am seeing a lot of criticism for white topping of the roads in this thread. Can anyone specify why this is considered a sham or a white elephant? To me, this was a good move. The longevity is really good for these roads especially in wet conditions and roads exposed to heavy loads and flooding. This will also put to a retarring scam at least for a reasonable period.

Bangalore tar roads were/are bad. It needed to be tarred twice a year. The tarring process was/is bad. The white topping was the silver bullet solution to this BBMP-contractor tar nexus. It is claimed white-topping is 5 times more expensive than tarring. So if the white-topped roads hold good for 5+ years, then it will break-even.

Tendersure also was a good initiative. Looks like that also now scaled back or scrapped altogether.

Bangalore CBD area is pleasant to walk because of TenderSure footpaths. It is a pity that this amenity was not extended to other parts of the city.

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

Technical reasons why I am against this white topping:
1. Tarred roads allow water to seep through to the ground and it helps refill ground water levels. The concrete that is used for this white topping doesn't allow that. All the rain water goes down the drains and wasted. Depleting ground water levels are a hard hitting reality in Bangalore (ask any body who got borewells drilled and how deeper and deeper they're forced to go with each passing year).

Tarred roads allowing water seepage like soil is news to me. Tar allows water seepage but takes weeks. Tarred roads develop potholes because of water seepage. Hollow dents on-road hold water for a long time and then tar breaks, potholes are formed.

Potholes are not the mechanism for groundwater harvesting. Roads occupy a small percentage of the city area and rainwater on roads run into storm drains. Water from storm drains can still be collected and water harvesting can be performed by concerned citizens.

2. Because of reason 1., old roadside trees which Bangalore was once famous for are dying a slow death because they aren't getting enough water. that is if they are already not cut down. this definitely is taking the temperatures of the city higher

Roadside trees are decreasing because new trees not planted on roads. Neither the existing ones are watered. Road widening, metro construction has affected roadside trees cultivation.

3. Many of these new white-topped roads already have already turned smooth and pose a high risk of vehicle skidding(especially 2-wheelers). They may last long in terms of not getting potholes, but they don't last long with respect to surface roughness.
4. If re-tarring was a scam as per you, re-scaling (lines to keep the surface rough will replace that). I'd prefer the former because re-scaling or repairing dug up sections of White topping is tougher and more expensive that re-tarring (digging up new roads isn't stopping anytime soon).
5. Tyre life of our cars reduce drastically with concrete roads...the cascading effect because of this is also a real issue.

Not such pain-points to avoid concrete roads.

6. The roads selected for white topping are already good wide roads with hardly any issues (like in and around Lalbagh, KR road). The roads which were bad earlier, remain bad. Priority is something that our city planners don't know.

True. Hope they select heavy vehicle traffic roads because those are prone to damage. First in my list would be Bannerghatta road.

Originally Posted by poloman

Agree to most of your points, but I still think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Similarly for flyover project from Chanlukya to Hebbal. People opposed and it was dropped. Now, people have to face slow-moving traffic daily. There was no alternative plan proposed to decongest the area.

Originally Posted by theredliner

To see how it turns out, it should have been taken up as a pilot project on a small stretch, especially on an expenditure of a grand scale like this. That is exactly what the experts from IISc have mentioned in their bashings as well. Now we have spent 36000 million INR (500m USD) on the project. We'd have to live with it no matter what. If it is the usual BBMP quality, all of it is down the drain.

Pilot was done in 2011 from St John Hospital signal till Madivala underpass. Isn't the cost around 1000 crores for 90Km, which is around 150 million USD?

IISc profs want many good things in life like walking cities, cycle lanes, pedestrian thoroughfares, parking lots converted to sitting areas, vertical gardens. These are good 'self-actualization' ideas and doesn't seem mean much to the hapless citizens of this city who are stuck in traffic and struggling for their 'physiological' and 'safety' commute needs.

Originally Posted by paragsachania

Funded or partially sponsored by ACC, it was re-concretized at least twice after this as I know. Then they even put a layer of asphalt on it that also got wiped off where the underpass is.

Truly the benchmark on how not to make concrete roads !

That's true. It was sponsored by cement lobby. They wanted to demo concrete roads but made a poor surface. Need a vehicle with good suspension so as to not to notice the road undulations. All underpasses have concretized roads (but with poor drainage). In Madiwala underpass, I think they were trying tar mats, for reasons unknown.

[paragsachania]

Originally Posted by msdivy

Pilot was done in 2011 from St John Hospital signal till Madivala underpass.

Funded or partially sponsored by ACC, it was re-concretized at least twice after this as I know. Then they even put a layer of asphalt on it that also got wiped off where the underpass is.

Truly the benchmark on how not to make concrete roads !

[poloman]

Originally Posted by paragsachania

Funded or partially sponsored by ACC, it was re-concretized at least twice after this as I know. Then they even put a layer of asphalt on it that also got wiped off where the underpass is.

Truly the benchmark on how not to make concrete roads !

Suranjan Das road stretch from BEML circle to Old Madras road is one of the oldest concrete roads I know of in Bangalore. I have been using the road for more than 15 years. It has always been pothole-free to the best of my knowledge and carries huge volume of traffic.

Water from storm drains can still be collected and water harvesting can be performed by concerned citizens

This should be channelled to hundreds of lakes in Bangalore which are now fed with drains. Instead of tackling bigger evils experts are after anything and everything Govt does.

[deehunk]

Originally Posted by poloman

This should be channelled to hundreds of lakes in Bangalore which are now fed with drains. Instead of tackling bigger evils experts are after anything and everything Govt does.

We have not had a stable government since 2008, frequent change of power between parties has led to wide spread corruption in BDA and BBMP. I want bring to your notice about a road being built from Kumbalgodu(Opposite Brigade Panorama) to Magadi Road. This passes through the Kempegowda layout, it was in the news for its cost of Rs.39 crores per km. This is going to be a concrete road passing through 10-15 villages. The quality of work is visible but still work is in progress.

[B103]

Originally Posted by sachinpk

I do understand that part, but there is no point in blaming an unconnected entity (eg: Govt. of India) for a mess which has been created by the local self government. And to be honest; if GoI says that it can take over Bangalore the state government may accept it. Because it finds one entity, which it can now constantly blame and pass the buck :. We have a civic agency who was willing to hand over a dirty lake to the Indian Army, because they had promised to clean it up (and also do their water training there). There would be many who deal with non-Indian customers/clients on a regular basis; but there are even more number of people who don't have to do that. For example, for a local auto rickshaw driver he has no kind of embarassment for what a non-Indian person thinks about his behaviour. For that driver the maximum requirements are to escape the police and make a daily living.

May I ask you why would it be that Government of India is an unconnected entity in this ecosystem?

Corporate companies in the IT sector are paying big money as corporate taxes, the rate is incidentally one of the highest in the world. They also bring valuable foreign exchange to the country. There are millions of employees paying a significant percentage of their income as income tax. Who collects all of it?

Lot of such tax money is flowing into the kitty of Government of India from Bangalore. If GoI is collecting the money it is also partially incumbent on them to ensure that the Golden goose is at least reasonably well reared. It would be frivolous to say that my responsibility stops where I collect taxes.

NB: Some part of the GST tax kitty is devolved into states by Union government. Not sure how corporate and personal taxes are spent. Anyway, that would not not absolve GoI of its share of responsibilities, post tax collection.

https://www.livemint.com/politics/po...354554912.html

[B103]

Lot of sophistication like data mining, deep learning etc are brought into the tax system, which is appreciable. A small grouse is that at least a small percentage of that vigor and focus should also be on service delivery aspect, post the tax collection.

Tax collection has mostly remained a one sided affair. Say, tomorrow it takes 4 hours for you to travel a mere 2 km, there is no potable water, air is polluted and roads are totally crumbled (we are close to these conditions already), can you stop paying taxes due on you citing these poor conditions?

[am1m]

Originally Posted by poloman

Suranjan Das road stretch from BEML circle to Old Madras road is one of the oldest concrete roads I know of in Bangalore. I have been using the road for more than 15 years. It has always been pothole-free to the best of my knowledge and carries huge volume of traffic

Yes, the concreting on that road is of a good quality. I grew up around that area and likewise have been using that road for about 25 years, first on cycles, then on bikes and cars. The huge volume of traffic there is a recent thing, say the past 7-10 years or so.

But the quality of white topping being done elsewhere is of a much lower quality than the concreting done on Suranjan Das road. Perhaps because BEML and the defence industries (HAL, LRDE, ISRO, GTRE, etc.) located there use that road in the late hours to move some really heavy equipment, the contractors paid more attention to the quality of work on Suranjan Das road. Just speculating. But that is obviously not the case with the white-topping elsewhere. Also, I remember when the concreting was re-done on that road, the work finished really quickly, very unlike the white-topping drama still going on elsewhere.

Another grouse with this recent white-topping activity is a lot of the roads that have been identified for white-topping are in very good shape already. So why not focus on bad roads instead? (Case in point: https://twitter.com/Mvmtraffic/statu...53959962931201 and associated post: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...ml#post4642339 (Rants on Bangalore's traffic situation)).

Originally Posted by swissknife

I find it rather strange that more than 80% of the job openings in IT require people to work out of Bangalore. With the available telecom and virtual presence, why do people still want work to be done with flesh and blood connect?

Multi-crore question my friend!

The eternal cynic in me will say: What would all those mid-level 'people managers' in IT companies do then?! The cat will be out of the bag if people don't need to come in to work and companies realize that there is no need for a bulging midriff of 'people management' after all!

But on a more measured note, I guess even if people in the IT industry do not need to work from a physical office, not sure cities like Bangalore will ever be de-congested. Cities offer an aggregation of several other services such as healthcare, education, entertainment, etc. that will not be economically feasible in a tier-II city because of the lower customer base. So I think a lot of families will anyway continue to remain in the city. Also, connectivity is still an issue in many smaller towns. I have a few friends who have moved out of Bangalore to small villages and towns in Goa. Creative, freelance types, they still need to drive to Panaji to get better connectivity and to upload work. It's improving, but still not there yet.