[rki2007]

Originally Posted by Added_flavor

You spoke my mind. Let me list what I follow when commuting in traffic.

PS: However, I strongly advocate a car in city conditions when it's raining. Most people who don't ride 2 wheelers are ignorant about the risks involved for a two wheeler when the road is wet. For example, I read an unsympathetic post in one of the threads expecting 2 wheelers to ride 'normally' even in wet conditions because it was slowing his car down.

Very true. More than unsympathetic, it is more of sarcasm. Felt bad when I read a post where two wheeler riders taking shelter under the underpass during heavy downpour was been so badly criticized with such bad sarcasm.

[bharat4ever]

I'd like to list a few points against two wheelers, from a car driver's point of view and otherwise. This is true in most of the cases. Please don't say that "I own a two wheeler, and I never do that".

1. Find gaps between vehicles ALL the time to get forward. This includes going diagonally and going perpendicular to the direction of the traffic. Why can't a two wheeler just follow a lane, and stay there.
2. Overtaking a four wheeler, and slowing down.
3. In bumper to bumper traffic, my 4 wheeler will be following another 4 wheeler, and estimate the space required based on this. Suddenly a two wheeler comes in between, and slows down.
4. Even if your car is turning left at the next junction, and you are on the left most lane, and you have your indicator on, there will be atleast 3-4 two wheelers on your left, but will go straight.
5. The moment it rains, two wheelers stop riding, and take refuge under flyovers. I have no problems with that, but they park their vehicles randomly, and suddenly a two lane road under the bridge becomes half a lane.
6. And then there is the overtaking on the left, which they will do all the time.

[rki2007]

Originally Posted by bharat4ever

I'd like to list a few points against two wheelers, from a car driver's point of view and otherwise. This is true in most of the cases. Please don't say that "I own a two wheeler, and I never do that".

1. Find gaps between vehicles ALL the time to get forward. This includes going diagonally and going perpendicular to the direction of the traffic. Why can't a two wheeler just follow a lane, and stay there.
2. Overtaking a four wheeler, and slowing down.
3. In bumper to bumper traffic, my 4 wheeler will be following another 4 wheeler, and estimate the space required based on this. Suddenly a two wheeler comes in between, and slows down.
4. Even if your car is turning left at the next junction, and you are on the left most lane, and you have your indicator on, there will be atleast 3-4 two wheelers on your left, but will go straight.
5. The moment it rains, two wheelers stop riding, and take refuge under flyovers. I have no problems with that, but they park their vehicles randomly, and suddenly a two lane road under the bridge becomes half a lane.
6. And then there is the overtaking on the left, which they will do all the time.

Bro first understand that people who are advocating usage of two wheelers for commuting purpose aren't against usage of car. Each one of them do have a car including myself and use it when it is needed.

And the discussion here isn't about " Who are good drivers - Car dudes or Bikers" instead it is about easy commuting and ideas to avoid gridlocks in the traffic, suggesting to use a two wheeler for daily commuting when traveling alone. That's all !!! Kindly request you not to drive the discussion into a unintended territory.

So first thing which I want to tell you is that we understand a car driver's perspective and a biker's point of view as well.

Answers to your thoughts point wise:

1. There are bad drivers in all segments. Be it car or bike or trucks or buses and everything. Now if you say that bikers are the only people who don't follow lane manners. I will not agree with you. What will you say to those cabbies hopping lanes, the Auto guys jumping like monkeys from one side to the other, the BMTC Hooligans?

Jumping lanes is very common with cars too. To be very honest, I have even seen cars with Team Bhp stickers driven improperly on the city roads and many even get reported on the bad drivers thread in our forum.

Bad driving is common with everyone and not only two wheelers.

2. I did not get your point. Why would anyone overtake you and just stay ahead of your wheels and slow down. Would that biker want to get run down by your car? I don't know. On a lighter note , also it could be a junction where a biker overtakes you and has to stop in the junction without a choice. In that case, you should notice that there is stop ahead. Didn't you?

3. Same as 2

4. Bad drivers out there!! Common with all kinds of vehicles and not only bikers. So many cabbies do this. Many car drivers who have no clue about which way to go do this.

5. Increased amount of population and shortage of space is the reason. Please don't expect everything to be normal even during rains. What if your car stops in the rain and cause traffic jams? During rains this is common. Even if a biker has a full set of rain wears still do you expect him to ride in heavy rains on the slippery surface just for the sake of giving space to your car?

6. Dude overtaking on left is so very common today and if you tell me that only bikers do that is something I strongly disagree. There are hell lot of BMTC guys staying so close to you on the left. In city traffic it is unwritten thing that people don't honk on the right most lane for you give way to them. They just move through the available space, be it car or bike. I am not advocating bad driving manners, but I am telling you this is how it happens.

Hope you understood the spirit of the discussion. I didn't mean to offend you. If still you felt it so, then I apologize for that!!

[binand]

Originally Posted by bharat4ever

1. Find gaps between vehicles ALL the time to get forward. This includes going diagonally and going perpendicular to the direction of the traffic. Why can't a two wheeler just follow a lane, and stay there.

This is expected behaviour the world over (maybe minus the "perpendicular" part). Imagine what would happen if all the two-wheelers at every signal stood one behind the other, in the middle of lanes - the pile-up would triple or worsen even further.

A useful analogy is of the bottle, marbles and sand.

It is a problem in India because car-owners make a two-lane carriageway into three or more lanes; reducing the lateral distance between vehicles considerably. If car drivers were to follow the lanes properly this wouldn't have been an issue at all (lanes are 3.5m wide, cars are seldom wider than 2m).

[bharat4ever]

Mod Note : Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another on the SAME THREAD!

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Originally Posted by binand

This is expected behaviour the world over (maybe minus the "perpendicular" part). Imagine what would happen if all the two-wheelers at every signal stood one behind the other, in the middle of lanes - the pile-up would triple or worsen even further.

A useful analogy is of the bottle, marbles and sand.

What if two two wheelers stood next to each other, and used the same space as a car?

1. There are bad drivers in all segments. Be it car or bike or trucks or buses and everything. Now if you say that bikers are the only people who don't follow lane manners. I will not agree with you. What will you say to those cabbies hopping lanes, the Auto guys jumping like monkeys from one side to the other, the BMTC Hooligans?

Agreed, but with bikes it's easier to do. Just saying.

I did not get your point. Why would anyone overtake you and just stay ahead of your wheels and slow down. Would that biker want to get run down by your car? I don't know. On a lighter note , also it could be a junction where a biker overtakes you and has to stop in the junction without a choice. In that case, you should notice that there is stop ahead. Didn't you?

Oh many people on TBHP here would agree this is a menace.
Take a situation where you're following another four wheeler. The biker overtakes you, and now wants to squeeze in between you and the four wheeler in front of you. He slows down, and forces you to slow down too. Such maneuvers are not possible with cars.

Increased amount of population and shortage of space is the reason. Please don't expect everything to be normal even during rains. What if your car stops in the rain and cause traffic jams? During rains this is common. Even if a biker has a full set of rain wears still do you expect him to ride in heavy rains on the slippery surface just for the sake of giving space to your car?

Please try to understand. I am not heartless and saying that they go on in the rain. Take shelter, but don't block the road and park the vehicle. If there's no space to park, find another shelter.

Dude overtaking on left is so very common today and if you tell me that only bikers do that is something I strongly disagree. There are hell lot of BMTC guys staying so close to you on the left. In city traffic it is unwritten thing that people don't honk on the right most lane for you give way to them. They just move through the available space, be it car or bike. I am not advocating bad driving manners, but I am telling you this is how it happens.

Overtaking on the left is a norm nowadays. Agreed. But bikes trying to squeeze in on your left, when you have begun taking the left turn? Really?

[Rajeevraj]

Originally Posted by bharat4ever

I'd like to list a few points against two wheelers, from a car driver's point of view and otherwise. This is true in most of the cases. Please don't say that "I own a two wheeler, and I never do that".

While I agree that all the points you have mentioned happens and is most prevalent with 2 wheelers, I don't think it is only specific to 2 wheelers. Even If you replace 2 wheeler with car, auto, taxi, even lorry and bus, all the points you mentioned is true here in Bangalore. A bad driver is a bad driver irrespective of the vehicle being driven/ridden.

In any case I don't think the intention is to prove 2 wheelers are better than cars or vice versa. One group of people feel that riding a 2 wheeler in Bangalore is risky and dangerous and there is another group who regularly use a bike as opposed to a car and are putting forward their inputs and experiences to try to show why it is not as bad as it is made out to be.

[kiran_cr]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

What gap are they referring to? I hope they don't mean the one on ORR.

News is out on today's bangalore mirror. This is what happens when people take law into their own hands without thinking twice (or thinking in the first place)

http://www.bangaloremirror.com/banga.../46949644.cms?

[Grand Drive]

Police tighten screws on nail mafia with one more arrest.

Source : Bangalore Mirror

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by rki2007

Very true. More than unsympathetic, it is more of sarcasm. Felt bad when I read a post where two wheeler riders taking shelter under the underpass during heavy downpour was been so badly criticized with such bad sarcasm.

Convenience is optional, safety shouldn't be. A biker decides to take shelter from the rain (even if he has rain-wear)? Fair enough, his choice to make.

What ISN'T his choice to make is leaving his two wheeler in the middle of a traffic lane without any indication of its presence. Traffic flow is the least of his concerns at that point, he can easily get injured or killed (or do it to someone else) by an approaching vehicle in the reduced visibility due to rain and if the approaching vehicle can't stop in time (there are plenty of reckless drivers out there). If I'm blocking traffic for whatever reason, it's my responsibility to indicate as such to warn other motorists, not their responsibility to spot me and take evasive action. That's why our cars have the reflective triangle thingy and hazard lamps to use in such a situation.

I was on my bike earlier this week on the ORR when there was a sudden downpour. All my valuables (wallet, phone etc.) were in a zip-loc pouch in my backpack (a regular practice for me during rainy weather) so I wasn't really worried of getting drenched, but the downpour was heavy so I decided to stop a while and find shelter rather than risk riding further. I couldn't find anywhere to stop below the next underpass, and almost got knocked off the bike bumping into a moron who was sitting on his stationary bike with all lights turned off right in the middle of the left lane. I couldn't see him due to the dark underpass and all the water on my helmet visor and in my eyes. What saved me was my slow crawling speed and anticipation that someone 'may' be standing there. When I asked him why he's sitting in the middle of a dark underpass with all lights off, his response: "It's raining dude, everyone else is standing, what's your problem?". "My problem is I could've been driving a truck and you'd be maimed or dead right now. Find another spot or at least turn on your blinkers!". He just shrugged and turned away, mumbling to himself. He still DID NOT turn on his blinkers. I just rode carefully on, feeling safer on the wet road than surrounded by suicidal morons in a dark underpass. And this guy wasn't an exception, rather the norm on our roads.

He's free to take shelter from the rain, but only after making sure he isn't endangering someone else's life/property in the process. If that means getting drenched a bit while finding a safe(r) spot, so be it. His convenience isn't more valuable that his own life & limb, forget mine.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by bharat4ever

Oh many people on TBHP here would agree this is a menace.

I for one, agree. Now all us city folk know how it is here so there's really nothing much to explain, most motorists have scant regard for rules or the safety of others or even themselves. Yes it is spread across all motor vehicles including cars, autos, cabs, buses & motorcycles. Bikes being the most in number will naturally have more number of terrible riders.

There are 2 types of traffic here, city traffic which has lots of dancing & jiggling autos/bikes, speeding cabs & buses and of course jaywalkers & ring road traffic where sudden overtaking, honking & speed is the norm. Due to the higher average speed in ring road driving, bikers generally keep away and don't cut in as much.. autos are very thin in number so that problem is minimal too. Within city limits its a free-for-all frenzy in the name of traffic and for someone who travels in that route bikers are indeed a menace.

Autos & bikers are everywhere, they squeeze and box you out during turns, they take every advantage possible - against one way, against red light, sudden lane changes etc. As car drivers however experienced we maybe, we cannot predict the dimensions of our vehicles as accurately as them and so we fear accidentally brushing against them or vice versa & slow down for their benefit even if they are clearly the violators, I experience this every single day. Ring roads are much better to drive on, unless of course a heavy vehicle breaks down/potholes/work in progress/jams etc etc, and due to the higher average speeds the risks are much higher there.

There is no road sense in this city - PERIOD. I try to mind my lane, observe city speeds, stop at amber by default due to the vaguely set timers that makes the other side of the junction pounce into motion the minute their redlight ends etc but it never is good enough. Taxis honk endlessly till you give way by going faster, or they literally park in the centre of the road when they are seeking passengers to accost.. when you honk at them they stare as if its their right to block vehicles. It wasn't so bad earlier, I know we keep blaming the city as I do as well but a city is just that - land. Bad planning, too many huge corporate entities around the same location, work pressure of cabbies, similar timings of departure etc are just wasting time, money & resources. Autos were quite pleasant to deal with earlier but now they have become unbearable locusts on the road. Yes locusts, they make loud grinding noises, travel in groups & wreck everything in their path.

Ok I'm feeling better

[Wheeliej]

Originally Posted by NPV

Last week I had some work on St.Marks Road so took the scooter for a visit to a shop there. Entered Museum Road from Residency Road side next to St. Josephs college, after the post office had to turn left. There was a lot of road construction activity (the now (in)famous TenderSURE project) and I felt the road was unusually narrow. I parked the scooter on a cross road a little ahead and then saw what had happened.

They've now constructed a 2 level footpath that has taken away at least 15 feet (7-8 feet each side) of the original width of the road. The space between the big trees is now a foot path but this now means absolutely no parking is possible on the entire stretch
This leaves 2 narrow lanes for vehicles and it will be a pain to use this stretch once the work is complete and schools reopen. While I'm all for saving trees and greenery, I think they overdid the 2 level wide footpath thing here. There are several business establishments, schools and shops on this stretch and it is going to be tough times ahead. Even if one vehicle stops, it is going to cause mayhem

I was wondering why I haven't seen any 'Tendersure' project comments yet. the entire project I think is extremely ill conceived, like the KR puram bridge which is supposed to be an engineering marvel (which in my opinion was designed by a retard in the middle of an epileptic attack) (Hey this is supposed to be a 'rant' thread).

They have only considered (a) moving traffic, and (b) pedestrians. if you recall, these used to be two-way roads, which they changed to one-way roads under the pretext of excess traffic. Now even those roads which normally used to accommodate 4 lanes of traffic, they are changing to two lane one way roads. If the designers feel that 2 lanes are sufficient on those roads, then why not introduce again two way traffic on those roads? At least 1 lane should have been reserved for parking. We pay huge road taxes when we purchase vehicles and each time we fill fuel. Are we not entitled to smooth driving and parking experience? What are we supposed to do with our cars once we reach the centre of town for a meeting or a day/evening out? Pack up the car in a suitcase / backpack and carry it around? the town planners have not ensured that the commercial establishments there have adequate parking for occupiers and visitors.

The area hosts many schools and the rush on the roads each morning and afternoon are huge; they haven't provided any space for parking school vans and cars which come to drop and collect the kids. which means kids will again be at risk.

And any one idiotic two wheeler taking a short cut driving on the opposite side of a one-way road will be enough to create a traffic gridlock of a few KM. Forget that, even a normal bus stopping to drop / pick up passengers would have the same effect.

In any case the way this project is going no pedestrian can use the footpaths (still) and they are anyways walking on the roads; and by the time the project is completed it will be time to repair the wide footpaths again. And how do they intend to stop two wheelers from occupying and riding on the wide but accessible footpaths? What about hawkers occupying the wide footpaths and turning the roads into a marketplace?

It is a ridiculous project which does not take into account the needs of the people who may need to stop / park the car in the area. At least 1 lane should have been dedicated to car/two wheeler parking. Each NEW and (supposedly) IMPROVED scheme of traffic management in this city only squeezes out the average car driver of some more parking space.

[paragsachania]

Originally Posted by Wheeliej

I was wondering why I haven't seen any 'Tendersure' project comments yet.

If you scroll a few pages back you will find many comments and posts on Tendersure project and the woes commuters faced while it was executed and even now when work is completed in may sections including St Marks Road.

One of the most idiotic projects just like the Autorickshaw lane system which has eaten the width of the road.

[ambivalent_98]

I agree completely road sense is kinda less and everyone is in hurry to overtake from left and right without any sense of oncoming traffic.
Is there anyone who will ever take a look at the traffic problems and try to give logical solutions to the traffic woes ?

[msdivy]

Originally Posted by Wheeliej

And any one idiotic two wheeler taking a short cut driving on the opposite side of a one-way road will be enough to create a traffic gridlock of a few KM. Forget that, even a normal bus stopping to drop / pick up passengers would have the same effect.

What is some vehicle breaks down?

Originally Posted by paragsachania

One of the most idiotic projects just like the Autorickshaw lane system which has eaten the width of the road.

The autorickshaw lane can be safely converted into space for homeless - other vehicles can't enter and autos don't enter.

[rki2007]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Convenience is optional, safety shouldn't be. A biker decides to take shelter from the rain (even if he has rain-wear)? Fair enough, his choice to make.

What ISN'T his choice to make is leaving his two wheeler in the middle of a traffic lane without any indication of its presence. Traffic flow is the least of his concerns at that point, he can easily get injured or killed (or do it to someone else) by an approaching vehicle in the reduced visibility due to rain and if the approaching vehicle can't stop in time (there are plenty of reckless drivers out there). If I'm blocking traffic for whatever reason, it's my responsibility to indicate as such to warn other motorists, not their responsibility to spot me and take evasive action. That's why our cars have the reflective triangle thingy and hazard lamps to use in such a situation.

I was on my bike earlier this week on the ORR when there was a sudden downpour. All my valuables (wallet, phone etc.) were in a zip-loc pouch in my backpack (a regular practice for me during rainy weather) so I wasn't really worried of getting drenched, but the downpour was heavy so I decided to stop a while and find shelter rather than risk riding further. I couldn't find anywhere to stop below the next underpass, and almost got knocked off the bike bumping into a moron who was sitting on his stationary bike with all lights turned off right in the middle of the left lane. I couldn't see him due to the dark underpass and all the water on my helmet visor and in my eyes. What saved me was my slow crawling speed and anticipation that someone 'may' be standing there. When I asked him why he's sitting in the middle of a dark underpass with all lights off, his response: "It's raining dude, everyone else is standing, what's your problem?". "My problem is I could've been driving a truck and you'd be maimed or dead right now. Find another spot or at least turn on your blinkers!". He just shrugged and turned away, mumbling to himself. He still DID NOT turn on his blinkers. I just rode carefully on, feeling safer on the wet road than surrounded by suicidal morons in a dark underpass. And this guy wasn't an exception, rather the norm on our roads.

He's free to take shelter from the rain, but only after making sure he isn't endangering someone else's life/property in the process. If that means getting drenched a bit while finding a safe(r) spot, so be it. His convenience isn't more valuable that his own life & limb, forget mine.

A biker decides to stop during a heavy downpour even though he has a rain wear???? Why should he do so is your question. But you have yourself answered your own question in the 3rd paragraph (marked in bold)

I am sorry, but it is slightly hard for me believe that someone would be standing in the middle of the road during rain. Think from the Biker's point of view. Why would be risk his life?

What will I answer if you say that there wasn't any indication from the biker who was waiting in the underpass.

Unfortunately there is no hazard warning lights in two wheelers in our Country and turning on the blinkers is something which people don't do!!