[navin]

Originally Posted by Bass&Trouble

Critical components like the edge wound voice coils etc. are manufactured in the US. I am not aware of someone who does that in India, let alone doing it well.

there is no maor supplier of good edge wound coills. So I assume these coils are Al and not Cu! :-)

[navin]

Originally Posted by clipto333

i didnt know that. but im happy indian mfrs are supplying to good companies. wish we had world class speakers designed and made in india.

Clip indian manufacturers are quite good at certain parts. The trouble is that the chiense are almost as good but at 50% of the cost. This is esp true for the magnets used.

My fear is that China seems to very serious about audio. Much more than India. Almost every major manufacturer of speakers and other audio equipment has some manufacturing representaion in China. Made in Denmark labels are being replaced by Designed in Denmark.

Very very small comapnies like wavecor have entire business models based around this "Designed in Denmark, Made in China" philosophy and I dont blame them.

Sam, B&T, Gunbir and co. know more.

[determinus]

Originally Posted by navin

Clip indian manufacturers are quite good at certain parts. The trouble is that the chiense are almost as good but at 50% of the cost. This is esp true for the magnets used.

My fear is that China seems to very serious about audio. Much more than India. Almost every major manufacturer of speakers and other audio equipment has some manufacturing representaion in China. Made in Denmark labels are being replaced by Designed in Denmark.

Slightly OT: B&W just recently setup their China manufacturing (completely owned) as announced at Munich High End 2007. Their new 600 Nautilus series is completely built from there. They are not just the only ones, but not sure when (or if) the Sinfoni's and Zapco's will decide to take that advantage.

[Sam Kapasi]

In the earlier years of this decade, JBL had no less than 7 different factories. around the world. Earlier bass tubes were made in Turkey (!!) and home audio speakers were made in Mexico. Certain higher end speakers were made in the USA.

Blaupunkt CD changers were made in Portugal.

Infinity speakers were made in Denmark.

Denon Pro manufactured most of their high end home systems in Japan.

harman/kardon hardware was made in the USA and in Japan (certain models)

Guess what all these guys have in common now?

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by clipto333

i havent heard the jbl sub. if ever i compare them, it would be in one car with all other equipment constant and with enclosures built to manufacturers specifications. i had clearly written 'from what i have been told' why are you confused? :-)

By whom ??? and what he was trying to say there.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Guess what all these guys have in common now?

O ho ho ho made in Indiaaaaaa, Made in Indiaaaaaa. Ek dil chaahiye that's made in India.

I dunno if it's true just felt like singing it.

[santosh.s]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

Guess what all these guys have in common now?

I guess more than setting up own plants in China, many companies use OEMs from China (of course it is behind the scene). And Chinese companies also focus on OEM market rather than selling under their own brand. I came across only one Chinese brand name called "Hi Vi Research" which seems to have earned some respect in audiophile/DIY communities. BTW, well reputed non-Chinese OEM companies like Vifa (Tymphony) too have their base in China.

European companies are carrying their legacy image and therefore benefiting from that (undue?) advantage, but it will probably get diluted over time... much like Sony's "Japanese" tag!

[Dhar's]

Originally Posted by navin

The trouble is that the chiense are almost as good but at 50% of the cost. This is esp true for the magnets used.

Recently I read a report saying that according to Economists, Yuan is (artificially) undervalued by 40%. No wonder their prices are cheap.

Source: Gulf News - Business dated 04/06/2007

Gulfnews: Washington edges closer to trade war with Beijing

Originally Posted by navin

My fear is that China seems to very serious about audio. Much more than India.
Very very small comapnies like wavecor have entire business models based around this "Designed in Denmark, Made in China" philosophy and I dont blame them.

China is serious on everything. From Toys to Trucks.
Last year I placed an order with a renowned German company for some mechanical items and it came from China. I wouldnt have known this unless there was a discrepancy with the switch B/L. German price, Chinese maal.

When I bought my first Creative 4.1 some years back, all happiness was gone the moment I saw that it was made in China. But even after 4 yrs, its still works well. The same with my Motorola, Infinity, JBL, Lennovo, Sony Ericsson, Some Casio models etc. All designed elsewhere, manufactered in China.
Now I have learned to live with it. The taboo associated to Chinese products (as inferior cheap quality) is fading I guess.

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by santosh.s

European companies are carrying their legacy image and therefore benefiting from that (undue?) advantage, but it will probably get diluted over time... much like Sony's "Japanese" tag!

I differ slightly with you on this respect.

Being involved professionally on many levels with one of the leading Hi-Fi mega-companies (Harman International) I've realised one thing.

With the right R&D, perfect attention to detail, detailed schematics, external drawings, dimensions and specifications colours dyes paints, processes, materials specified, with tolerances (and many more things, of course),

You CAN make anything you want in any (proper) factory (with the right tools and people) ANYwhere in the world. With the right supervision, the same quality level that is achievable in Germany, is achievable in China.
What differs is the initial investment and the skilled labour man-hour charges.
And this is where China steps in. With the Governments help on both cheap costings and encouragement in export, China is steadily building up an enviable forex reserve.

But you cannot generalise a country. Just like all products manufactured in India are not of the same quality. Would you say that some low cost soap, manufactured in a SSI plant in Bihar, is of the same quality as some of the stuff made by Godrej?

Or for that matter, did you know that half the stuff well-marketed by Tata, Godrej, Nicholas-Piramal and many other reputable houses is not actually made by them? Pick up a bar of your favourite soap, or talc, or toothpaste or washing powder and read. Chances are they were made in a smaller factory in India, under the supervision of Godrej.


Take APPLE, for example. Outstanding Design, utility, user-friendliness and build quality. All products made in China. Would you say that all Apple products benefit from the "legacy" image? I am sure you wouldn't. If China were capable of designing and producing the iPhone, they would have made it long before Apple and much cheaper too.

What you're paying for, is Steve Jobs' brains. Not a Chinese factories diligence in making it exactly to Apple specifications.

I think it is safe to divide Chinese products into two clear categories.

1) Independent low cost gadgets: Unbranded, economic gadgets that can either be imported using a random name, or an existing brand name. Examples are Mitashi, Pagaria and many more.
These products are completely designed and created in the PRC and produced there at costs, unheard of worldwide.

2) Chinese Factories that produce goods for Big Brands: These factories are allowed no R&D, no designing (Both of the circuit and of the cosmetics) and are strictly supervised by the companies whose brands they produce the goods for. Both the assembly line and the environment of production, with strict guidelines on tolerances. (Example Apple, IBM, JBL, Microsoft and many more). The existing factory and labour is used as a facility to manufacture the required goods.

In this case, when the factory changes (from chinese factory A, to chinese factory B) the end user will never see a different product, because of the stringent guidelines.

In certain cases, companies will set up an office+factory base in China itself. This is done with great support from the Chinese Government, as this would provide fresh employment to men and women.

It is not the first example, but the SECOND example of chinese factories that are wiping away the stigma of "Made in China" rapidly.

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by Dhar's

German price, Chinese maal.
....all happiness was gone the moment I saw that it was made in China. But even after 4 yrs, its still works well. The same with my Motorola, Infinity, JBL, Lennovo, Sony Ericsson, Some Casio models etc. All designed elsewhere, manufactered in China

Exactly!! You've hit the nail perfectly on the head.

What you are paying for is those few hundred people, that are designing the product, the software in the product, the hyper-brained engineers that are planning and testing this product, the research that goes into it and much more.

You are not paying for the few thousand that follow a strict regime (wrt manufacture) in a factory, that happens to be in China.
As stated earlier, the only reason it happens to be in China, is because that's the Chinese Government's policy. To encourage employment and export. The facilities provided to an MNC with intention to manufacture in China are stupendous! Right from finance to an HR department, handled directly by the Government themselves!!

I recieved a recent mail:



I mean really. Do you know what it costs to manufacture a Loius Vuitton handbag, a Mont Blanc Tie-pin or a Victoria's secret Bra? If you take these apart, you'll feel stupid for buying them!

But you pay for the design. Not the manufacture.

Besides, I remember paying 30 grand for a really stupid Ericsson phone, 10 years ago, (When 30K was worth a LOT more than it is today, there were no call centres and the average educated kid earned 1500-3000 rupees) that you could only make calls on and use for self-defense by throwing it at your attacker.
Today kids are paying 2 grand for a phone that can probably make coffee for them. This is ONLY because Ericsson phones are no longer made by Swedish p0rnstars and Nokia phones are no longer made by Finnish racecar drivers.

[clipto333]

sam bhai,

i agree on everything. all the gadgets/electronics i have are mostly made in china and the quality of the products are top notch. i haven't experienced a failure of a desinged by a good company and made in china product except for my LG 53" projection tv(2 of the 3 light guns or whatever they are called failed) which im not sure where it was made(probably korea).

what im trying to say is that i dont have a problem with companies designing their products and getting them made in china or setting up their own manufacturing units in china to save on labour costs. and people sooner or later will accept the fact that products by good companies made in china are not inferior in any way.

cheers
clip


LBM, i was told that jbl is far better than pio(subs) in terms of sq. most of us know that pio subs have the 'one note bass' tag attached to it. i dont remember who told this but he said that jbls have a lot more texture and speed than pio subs and pio has one note bass. ill see if i can find anything from my old threads.

cheers
clip

[Wimwian]

Originally Posted by navin

If you still need more bass even 60-65Hz is ok in your volumes levels are not too loud or your XO is steep (4th order).

Small update from my side... finally managed to find some time to tune my amp today. The 60.4 frequency control has markings from 30 to 320 Hz, have set it at approximately 80Hz for both front & rear... gain is about 55% (front & rear). Quite happy with the bass now... in fact, I've shut off most of the HU features, equalizer is on flat, fader is slightly towards the rear and balance slightly towards the left... great sound! Many thanks Sam, Navin & LBM for your advice, u guys rock!!!

@Razor4077, how about another audition of the 607c... u may be a little surprised

[clipto333]

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

it is the problem in the pioneer 944 amp. when played hard it trips. I would say get a new mono amp for the sub duty. also is your sub 4 ohms SVC.

i think i have found the the problem and fixed it. the diode i was talking about had a loose socket. i tightened it and everything is working fine. if im not wrong(ive forgotten) removing this diode turns off every accessory(clock, HU, Courtesy lights etc.) i drove the car for around 40 kms there was no tripping or anything. earlier it used to trip every 2 seconds when the volume was increased to more than 50%. ill keep you posted if it reoccurs. :-)

and yes, my sub is a 4 ohm SVC.

cheers paaji
bolo tararara.
clip

[low_bass_makker]

Originally Posted by clipto333

i think i have found the the problem and fixed it. the diode i was talking about had a loose socket. i tightened it and everything is working fine. if im not wrong(ive forgotten) removing this diode turns off every accessory(clock, HU, Courtesy lights etc.) i drove the car for around 40 kms there was no tripping or anything. earlier it used to trip every 2 seconds when the volume was increased to more than 50%. ill keep you posted if it reoccurs. :-)

and yes, my sub is a 4 ohm SVC.

cheers paaji
bolo tararara.
clip

Good to hear that you solved the problem...

Bolo Tara rara.

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by Wimwian

I've shut off most of the HU features, equalizer is on flat, fader is slightly towards the rear and balance slightly towards the left... great sound! Many thanks Sam, Navin & LBM for your advice, u guys rock!!!

Wim, wim, wim. The fader should be slightly towards the front and the balance in the centre!! Do try that, it's generally the norm.

Bolo Tara rara.