[mayank0782]

Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy

My guess is that the top of the line will be around the 22 lakh mark OTR Bangalore and that's a lot of money for this car.
Toyota knows that it has no completion and will milk us all the way.
Always wonder why Hyundai cannot put up a competitor in this segment? At least it will keep Toyota honest.

Taking into account the kind of equipment it is offering in the all new interior packaging and the more powerful engine, it is definitely going to be considerably expensive.
As per the review, it also rides and handles better than the outgoing Innova.

My guess is it would be touching 24L OTR Bangalore for the top of the line version.

Although Hyundai was not able to manage good sales with anything in and above the 15L price bracket, I guess Creta has turned the tables around. Hyundai has definitely managed to change the perception but I don't see anything from them in that segment coming to India soon.

[GrammarNazi]

I guess I'm going against the tide here as my theory is different, but lets see, until the actual launch, my guess is probably just as good/bad as anyones.

Maybe as competition & cross shopping (Xylo / XUV etc) grows, I guess Toyota seems to've felt the need to make their cars more powerful.

The present Innova being a 2.5L engine churning out just 102bhp, is known to be a long lasting workhorse that just runs forever with minimal to zilch issues in engine, drivetrain and build quality related factors.

They're now using a Variable Nozzle Turbo to churn 147bhp from a 2.4L engine. And to my best (albeit limited) knowledge, once the compression ratio is increased to optimise power output to such an extent, engine life would quite surely take a beating. Hence, I do have reservations & doubts about how reliable this 2.4L diesel will be over a LONG term.

IMO The good stuff (gadgetry & interiors) they may provide, is because many private buyers are now opting the XUV for the gizmos (apart from the more valuable price factor).

Also lets remember the car being tested is probably NOT the same one thats coming to India. Just like they with-held ALOT of features of the New Corolla Altis for the Indian Version, same may be done for this new Innova.

Now, although they DO have a following, pricing will play a key role. Beyond the point where brand value reaches a certain pinnacle, comes the precipice.

Toyota will have to gauge & ascertain that point carefully, else it can overstep like Maruti did with the S-Cross. Maruti IMO managed the blow because it has a wide product range & a farther reach, but Toyota has just 2-3 products & a mistake here may just be a push which may quite possibly trigger the beginning of a slow-down of brand Toyota.

Anyway, whether Tata or Toyota, when it comes to launching significantly new-ish products, I believe companies must strongly consider adopting a prudent introductory pricing strategy where they increase prices only after the product gets a good initial response & momentum from the market. Toyota itself adopted this strategy with the current Innova during years 2005 - '09.

[SkyWalker]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

They're now using a Variable Nozzle Turbo to churn 147bhp from a 2.4L engine. And to my best (albeit limited) knowledge, once the compression ratio is increased to optimise power output to such an extent, engine life would quite surely take a beating. Hence, I do have reservations & doubts about how reliable this 2.4L diesel will be over a LONG term.

Unless you have some specific facts, this is just conjecture. 147 bhp from a 2.4 L engine is hardly class leading. I am not even talking about top end players like BMW - There's a 2.2L in Tata Safari that does 150+ bhp (other 140 bhp tunes such as XUV as well) . There's a 1.6L Verna that does 126 bhp.

So, stating a 2.4L engine would have long term issues, because it produces 147 bhp does not make any sense.

And of course, we are talking about the Toyota. They have cars which have proven more reliable than other brands i have mentioned above.

[printh]

Considering the new innova is being targeted at family buyers( taxi owners will find it too costly),and housing a modern TC Diesel engine,it's more than sufficient to meet the longevity criteria. Most modern engines are trouble free for 2,00,000 kms with normal and prompt maintanence. This,turbocharging and increased compression ratio thing gives the much awaited increase in power output and FE .So, rather than retaining the older tune underpowered engine running for 4 lakh kms,better have decent powered unit which runs for 2 lakh kms. Heck, In fact I am just underestimating at 2 lakh kms ,who knows it can run even longer.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

I guess I'm going against the tide here as my theory is different, but lets see, until the actual launch, my guess is probably just as good/bad as anyones. Maybe as competition & cross shopping (Xylo / XUV etc) grows, I guess Toyota seems to've felt the need to make their cars more powerful........Anyway, whether Tata or Toyota, when it comes to launching significantly new-ish products, I believe companies must strongly consider adopting a prudent introductory pricing strategy where they increase prices only after the product gets a good initial response & momentum from the market. Toyota itself adopted this strategy with the current Innova during years 2005 - '09.

Your point about cross-shopping & competition is well taken - our car bazaar is changing almost as fast as the proverbial clothes-horse's dresses! And the products from our domestic majors' - though often saddled with unhappy design cues - are fast catching up with the competition. In this situation it is expected that Toyota - more than the others - will move quickly to update the Innova, their milch cow in India!

As far as the engine goes, the 2.5 L workhorse was a deeply understressed unit, producing just 102 bhp, as you mentioned. And using today's state-of-the-art diesel technology, there is no danger of over-stressing the unit due to compression ratio issues. This is a major advantage of the common rail system - piezo-controlled injection technology with advanced mapping gives very precise injection timing, controlling both the start & cut-off of fuel injection. While MEP values rise appreciably (higher torque and consequently bhp), the peak pressures (and thus peak stresses) are not greatly affected. The dull, old workhorse can thus be injected with a new, sharper edge, without sacrificing reliability.

But, as is usual, the success of the exercise will depend on the bean counters - the pricing! My gut feeling is that both the new & old models will continue - the old one keeping the taxi & fleet operators happy & the svelte, new blade catering to the more discerning & well-heeled heeled buyer.

[mroptimist]

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

I guess I'm going against the tide here as my theory is different, but lets see, until the actual launch, my guess is probably just as good/bad as anyones.

They're now using a Variable Nozzle Turbo to churn 147bhp from a 2.4L engine. And to my best (albeit limited) knowledge, once the compression ratio is increased to optimise power output to such an extent, engine life would quite surely take a beating. Hence, I do have reservations & doubts about how reliable this 2.4L diesel will be over a LONG term.

Originally Posted by shashanka

Your point about cross-shopping & competition is well taken - our car bazaar is changing almost as fast as the proverbial clothes-horse's dresses! And the products from our domestic majors' - though often saddled with unhappy design cues - are fast catching up with the competition. In this situation it is expected that Toyota - more than the others - will move quickly to update the Innova, their milch cow in India!

As far as the engine goes, the 2.5 L workhorse was a deeply understressed unit, producing just 102 bhp, as you mentioned. And using today's state-of-the-art diesel technology, there is no danger of over-stressing the unit due to compression ratio issues. This is a major advantage of the common rail system - piezo-controlled injection technology with advanced mapping gives very precise injection timing, controlling both the start & cut-off of fuel injection. While MEP values rise appreciably (higher torque and consequently bhp), the peak pressures (and thus peak stresses) are not greatly affected. The dull, old workhorse can thus be injected with a new, sharper edge, without sacrificing reliability.

But, as is usual, the success of the exercise will depend on the bean counters - the pricing! My gut feeling is that both the new & old models will continue - the old one keeping the taxi & fleet operators happy & the svelte, new blade catering to the more discerning & well-heeled heeled buyer.

Let me be the first one to bust the compression ratio myth:

The compression ratio of current engine is 18.5:1 (2KD-FTV)

Various sources including wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_KD_engine#2KD-FTV

In the newer GD series engines the compression ratios have actually come down from 18.5: 1 to 15.6:1 (Around 17%).

Below is the screenshot for your understanding from the source I have attached.

So how did they achieve such a feat, a nice article from a reputed auto journo for your reference.

http://www.4x4australia.com.au/opini...r-toyota-4x4s/

Some excerpts:

Toyota’s new 2.8-litre, four-cylinder diesel engine...
It's now in the Prado, the new Hilux and the Fortuner, and it offers a modest 3kW increase in peak power over the 3.0-litre engine it replaces.
Nevertheless, it is still a significant achievement.
Despite being eight per cent smaller in capacity, it produces 10 per cent more torque (now 450Nm; previously 410Nm) and more low- and middle-rpm power as a result.
But the smaller capacity is not the big efficiency story, as the new 2.8 engine’s 15.6:1 compression ratio is a significant 15 per cent lower than the 3.0-litre’s ratio of 17.9:1.
Compression ratio is a vital part of engine design. Higher compression ratios allow more mechanical energy to be extracted from the fuel being burnt and are a simple way to develop more power without increasing either engine speed or engine capacity.
The compression ratio of an engine is simply the volume of the cylinder when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke, compared to the volume of the cylinder when the piston is at the top of its stroke.
Increasing the compression ratio means the air-fuel mixture is squeezed into a smaller space, and when the mixture is ignited, higher pressures are applied to the piston.
This increased pressure on the piston provides more torque at the engine’s crankshaft (through the mechanical means of the conrod acting on the crankshaft’s big-end journal). That extra torque then produces more power.
In spark ignition (i.e. petrol) engines, compression ratios that are too high lead to pre-ignition (or detonation). This is where the fuel is ignited not by the spark plug, as it should be, but by the heat generated by the air being compressed, in what is an out-of-control and potentially engine-destroying explosion within the combustion chamber.
Diesel engines are designed to use the heat generated by compressing the air to ignite the fuel and have traditionally had high compression ratios. In fact, even as recently as 10 years ago, many 4x4 diesels had compression ratios up around 22:1 or even 23:1, a far cry from this new 2.8-litre’s 15.6:1.
Even though diesels are designed to have high compression ratios, and high compression ratios provide efficiency, it’s not all good news. A more forceful and violent explosion within the combustion chamber produces more noise in the form of diesel ‘knock’ and ‘rattle’, and potentially more engine vibration.
High compression ratios also produce more environmentally damaging oxides of nitrogen, commonly referred to as NOx; another reason why modern diesels are moving to lower compression ratios.
One thing that’s very obvious with this new 2.8 is that it’s much quieter and more refined than the outgoing 3.0-litre.
So how does a smaller engine with a lower compression ratio manage to make more power and torque than a bigger engine with a higher compression ratio, given that increasing an engine’s capacity and compression ratio is a straightforward way to increase torque and power?
The simple answer is that the 2.8 is more efficient at extracting energy from the fuel. Despite the lower compression ratios, the effective operating pressure within its cylinders is higher. This operating pressure is commonly called Brake Mean Effective Pressure (see ‘What is BMEP?’ sidebar).
The 2.8 achieves its higher BMEP despite a much lower compression ratio thanks largely to its common-rail fuel-injection system.
The common-rail system employed for Toyota’s new 2.8 engine runs at 2500bar, or around 35,000psi. That’s 1000 times what you put in your four-wheel drive’s tyres when they are pumped right up. Some common-rail systems use pressures as high as 3000bar.
The high fuel pressure means it takes less time to deliver the required fuel into the combustion chamber. Common-rail systems actually deliver the fuel to the combustion chamber in several small squirts rather than in one injection, as per older diesel engines.
The number and timing of these small, individual squirts of fuel depend on the load on the engine and on engine speed, and are designed to optimise flame propagation within the combustion chamber so the fuel is burnt most efficiently.
Interestingly, while European diesels commonly use very sophisticated piezo-electric injectors, Toyota’s 2.8-litre diesel uses more traditional electro-magnetic solenoid injectors, which are potentially less fuel-quality sensitive.
What is BMEP?
Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) is a measure of the operating pressure in an engine’s cylinders averaged out over the compression and power strokes. It’s a standard and handy measure of an engine’s “state of tune”. Highly tuned engines have high BMEP figures, while “soft-tune” engines have lower BMEP figures.
With any engine, if you increase the BMEP you will produce more power. Along with engine size and engine speed, BMEP defines how much power can be produced simply because more pressure on the piston will produce more torque at the crankshaft and therefore more power.
BMEP is a theoretical measure calculated from dynamometer-measured torque and is different from (although related to) measured cylinder pressure, commonly called Indicated Mean Effective Pressure, or IMEP.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by mroptimist

Let me be the first one to bust the compression ratio myth:
The compression ratio of current engine is 18.5:1 (2KD-FTV)
In the newer GD series engines the compression ratios have actually come down from 18.5: 1 to 15.6:1 (Around 17%).
Below is the screenshot for your understanding from the source I have attached.

Hello mroptimist,
Thank you for your above post. It is certainly enlightening, though not quite in the way you meant perhaps. Compression ratio is not a myth. In spark ignition engines (petrol/gas engines, for those interested) compression ratios can start from as low as 5:1 upto 11:1 or higher, for high performance machinery.
In diesel engines (or compression ignition engines), compression ratios may start from as low as 13.5:1 and can go upto 21:1 or higher. The compression ratio is one of the deciding factors for the peak pressure (or combustion pressure) inside the combustion space during the power stroke of the engine. The higher the peak pressure the higher is the stress level for the engine. This peak stress ( for this discussion I'm ignoring thermal stresses) needs to be well below the permitted/allowed stress threshold for the engine.

MEP (or if you prefer BMEP since it is the same) in your quoted article goes on to confirm - "With any engine, if you increase the BMEP you will produce more power. Along with engine size and engine speed, BMEP defines how much power can be produced simply because more pressure on the piston will produce more torque at the crankshaft and therefore more power.". Did you find some difficulty in understanding what I mentioned in my post, which I felt said the same thing? For further clarity, a fundamental power equation (which all mech. engrs, including mariners are famililiar with!) is as follows:-

Power in a rotating shaft = 2 x pi x N x T

where P is power (the units will vary as hp or KW), pi =3.142... , N=revs per sec, T=torque (nm, kg-m, ft-lbs,)

As working engineers we were not too concerned with IMEP, which is a more academic figure, and looks nice on indicator diagrams sent to the head office for record-keeping purposes! It is more useful as a tool for diagnosing the state of maintenance of the combustion related equipment of the engine. This is part of the monthly/fortnightly routine all marine engrs usually follow on board.

I hope I've been of some help in clearing up your doubts regarding compression ratios.

[mroptimist]

Originally Posted by shashanka

Hello mroptimist,
Thank you for your above post. It is certainly enlightening, though not quite in the way you meant perhaps. Compression ratio is not a myth.

I hope I've been of some help in clearing up your doubts regarding compression ratios.

Hello Shashanka Thank you for the elaborate post.

I am sorry I should have been clearer. What I wanted to convey was increasing compression ratio is not the only method of extracting power. That's all.

I am not a tech guy. I Infact don't understand much of the tech talk.

Cheers.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by mroptimist

Hello Shashanka Thank you for the elaborate post. I am sorry I should have been clearer. What I wanted to convey was increasing compression ratio is not the only method of extracting power. That's all. I am not a tech guy. I Infact don't understand much of the tech talk.
Cheers.

That's OK, no problem at all. And you are right - altering comp. ratio is not the only method of changing the output of an engine. There are several ways of doing this - but then, as someone else put it very well, that would be getting into techno-babble! So, some other time.

[Turbanator]

As per current information from a known local dealer in NCR , Toyota India is getting ready for production of newer ones very soon and will take off existing model from lines in coming few weeks. Expected launch date is first week of April & we might have formal booking announcement during Auto Expo itself. Looks they are under pressure due to ban on Diesel in NCR and some refreshed / new launches by competition though in different segments. New Fortuner is still away most likely during September / October which might be due to challenges in manufacturing / availability of kits from overseas.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

....Looks they are under pressure due to ban on Diesel in NCR and some refreshed / new launches by competition though in different segments...

Old or New Innova / Fortuner will not make any difference due to the ban (as both have >2L engines) in Delhi / NCR. It's purely that the competition has gone ahead and it's Toyota's turn to get the new products to retain / munch more market share in their segments.

[Turbanator]

They are launching Petrol Variants as well

[volkman10]

2016 Toyota Innova to be called ‘Innova Crysta’ in India.




http://indiatoday.intoday.in/auto/st.../1/580648.html

[DWind]

Does that mean that both the versions will be available? The current one for Taxi Market and Crysta for more up market versions (Hotel cabs + Personal Travel)

[carwatcher]

To be honest IMHO the Innova 2016 surely looks like a disproportionate or funky depending on how you see it but to me the Audi like front grill doesn't blend with the Japanese design and Audi/Elite i20 like rear lights on boot looked like an afterthought.

But don't worry this will also sell well as long as there is No competition.

Also surprised at the lack of ACC in the teaser pics as well as the mention in new features list.