[angad.bawa]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Our official Team BHP thread on the new Mahindra Scorpio shows the ground clearance as a mere 165 mm (vs 200 for the Storme/Aria and 205 for the Dicor)!

Surely this is a mistake? 165 mm is way too small for an SUV surely, especially one shod with 17 inch wheels?

Mahindra puts a plastic cover in both XUV & Scorpio to save certain duties by reducing the ground clearance, practically the cover is just a farce to take advantage of the flawed policy!

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

It is a misconception/myth that a heavier vehicle is a safer vehicle. The thinkness of sheetmetal is irrelavant to safety in a car. They key is to to have a proper frame and crumple zones. The heaviness of the bonnet doesn't matter.

While I agree on the relevance of crumple zones, would need to disagree with your blanket statement that the weight doesn't matter. All things remaining the same, a longer heavier vehicle will fare better in crashes, specially in a real time scenario against lighter cars.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

It is a misconception/myth that a heavier vehicle is a safer vehicle. The thinkness of sheetmetal is irrelavant to safety in a car. They key is to to have a proper frame and crumple zones. The heaviness of the bonnet doesn't matter.

I won't fully agree to that. Having been in a nasty accident and walked away unscathed myself, I'll certainly bet that high grade thick steel does play a role in safety. Crumple zones can ADD to the safety but not replace the steel strength altogether. Thinner steel is simply cost cutting.

For a simple statistical proof, have a look at the Indian Road accident pics thread here on tbhp. You'll see how the light Japanese are faring vs. heavier German, Italian (yes FIAT) and even some Indian cars in collision.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by hyper-VTEC

We have already outgrown our existing ride (2007, Swift Petrol, 67000Kms run) and with the recent addition to the family the Little One's car seat, pram and bags demands more space and safety. Knowing that Tata cars are re-sale blunders we decided to go ahead and take the plunge. It was easy to convince my spouse as well since she also likes the Storme very much

We are geared to give the Tata dealers in Chennai a good HARD push for discounts - slow moving vehicle + year end + new model round the corner.

If you had told this to me earlier, I'd have said your decision was made and obvious at that. Same reason we shifted on from my still excellent Baleno to the Storme. It really is a massive kiddie wagon. When extended family meets on holidays, weekends etc. ALL the cousins simply pile on into the Storme (I lift each one in and out of the 3rd row personally so that they do not stamp all over the painted sill LOL). I once carried 14 squealing kids, while the repective parents car pooled behind in their fancy sedans ....

I gave Beastie her weekly shampoo treatment last evening and then since no one else was interested me and my youngest daughter (in the middle row watching cartoons) took off for an aimless night drive. Planned to be back early as her school was starting after the Diwali holidays, but so lovely was the Storme pulling (a clean freshly washed vehicle always gets 20% BHP extra ....) that before both of us knew it we were crossing the bridge over the Bheema river - 40 kms out of Pune. The wife called and we reluctantly turned back.

Go for it!

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

It is a misconception/myth that a heavier vehicle is a safer vehicle. The thinkness of sheetmetal is irrelavant to safety in a car. They key is to to have a proper frame and crumple zones. The heaviness of the bonnet doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

While I agree on the relevance of crumple zones, would need to disagree with your blanket statement that the weight doesn't matter. All things remaining the same, a longer heavier vehicle will fare better in crashes, specially in a real time scenario against lighter cars.

Originally Posted by Reinhard

I won't fully agree to that. Having been in a nasty accident and walked away unscathed myself, I'll certainly bet that high grade thick steel does play a role in safety. Crumple zones can ADD to the safety but not replace the steel strength altogether. Thinner steel is simply cost cutting.

For a simple statistical proof, have a look at the Indian Road accident pics thread here on tbhp. You'll see how the light Japanese are faring vs. heavier German, Italian (yes FIAT) and even some Indian cars in collision.

My view exactly. Its not like TATA would not give the Storme crumple zones just because it has thicker steel sheeting. I have seen enough Discovery channel crash testing shows to know how a heavier vehicles fare against lighter ones a head-on. Steel costs money. No for-profit business would use more of it if it did not serve a purpose. Similarly no for-profit would use less of it if it did not serve a purpose. And speaking of the bonnet, its a vital element of protection to the driver cage in a front on impact.

[damodar]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Frankly, I think the Storme has replaced the Aria as the company's flagship. So if the Aria got the new motor, I don't see any reason why the Storme will not. If anything, the company might have felt the sales of the Aria were not as big a risk as those of the Storme in terms of trying out (field testing) a new untried motor. The few months lead time and vital field experience would help the company tweak and iron it out before introducing it into the vehicle for whom the sales really matter.

The Aria's 150ps is not a brand new motor which has not been through field testing, in fact the very same motor has been on sale in Europe for more than 2 years now. Thid is an Ad from 2012 if you look at the engine specifications at the bottom 150 cv is mentioned.

[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

While I agree on the relevance of crumple zones, would need to disagree with your blanket statement that the weight doesn't matter. All things remaining the same, a longer heavier vehicle will fare better in crashes, specially in a real time scenario against lighter cars.

I would like to think that for similar types of vehicles (- not comparing SUVs with sedans) thickness of sheet metal is not important. The recent Swift crash testing report is probably a case in point. The Swift sold in India was reported to have a weaker frame and thus its structural integrity was very poor compared to the European Swift.
Even in the case of Aria, the lower variant is less safer because of compromises made in the frame rather than the sheet metal thickness.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

Even in the case of Aria, the lower variant is less safer because of compromises made in the frame rather than the sheet metal thickness.

Aria is ladder on frame chasis so what kind of compromises on frame they have made and how it impacts ?

My understanding was that it is samebody with less features and gadgets.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

I would like to think that for similar types of vehicles (- not comparing SUVs with sedans) thickness of sheet metal is not important. The recent Swift crash testing report is probably a case in point. The Swift sold in India was reported to have a weaker frame and thus its structural integrity was very poor compared to the European Swift.
Even in the case of Aria, the lower variant is less safer because of compromises made in the frame rather than the sheet metal thickness.

The important factor to note here is that in a crash test - a 2Ton car crashes against a 2Ton car. A 1.5 Ton car crashes against a 1.5T ton. Weight doesn't matter in crash tests because you collide against an identical weight.

Would you want to imagine a real world Scenario where a 2T Safari crashes against a 1 ton Swift? The force transferred to the swift will be much more than what it could manage to transfer to the Safari.

Structural integrity does matter, but do you think they would re-engineer the Storme just because they reduce weight? I dont think so. Hence i would prefer the heavier one to remain, unless they come out with a totally re-engineered generation of the Storme.

[amitk26]

I don't know about Storme but if you take out the front grill / bumper in Safari Dicor you can see heavy metal bumper in front of radiator which looks like an iron girder and is thicker then cross member of main chassis of most cars/ SUV. In most light weight modern vehicles the front bumper inside the plastic bumper cowl is nothing more than a thin strip of metal.

So as long as they do not cut weight by removing such critical things I am fine with 200KG more weight.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

The important factor to note here is that in a crash test - a 2Ton car crashes against a 2Ton car. A 1.5 Ton car crashes against a 1.5T ton. Weight doesn't matter in crash tests because you collide against an identical weight.

Thanks bro. I did not know this. Learned something new today.

[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Aria is ladder on frame chasis so what kind of compromises on frame they have made and how it impacts ?

My understanding was that it is samebody with less features and gadgets.

Sorry. Below is what I wanted to hint at. Taken from the official Aria 4X2 review.

In addition to the removal of the AWD system, the overall body / chassis construction has also been modified to lower the weight, which is why the Aria 4x2 cannot be rated on the Euro NCAP.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

Sorry. Below is what I wanted to hint at. Taken from the official Aria 4X2 review.

humm then it's OK I won't take that too seriously , In a TBHP or any other review the reviewer is not allowed to take off panels and check what changes are done apart from removal of feature.

I am not too surprised by 200KG weight difference between AWD and 2WD because it is roughly same order the weight difference between 4X4 Safari and 4X2 Safari is 150 kg mainly due to one less differential and propeller shaft and no
Low range gears in gearbox.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by amitk26

I don't know about Storme but if you take out the front grill / bumper in Safari Dicor you can see heavy metal bumper in front of radiator which looks like an iron girder and is thicker then cross member of main chassis of most cars/ SUV. In most light weight modern vehicles the front bumper inside the plastic bumper cowl is nothing more than a thin strip of metal.

Sounds a lot like a battering ram. I am having visions of Mad Max meets Death Race here. Sincerely hope they have not deprived the Storme of this in an attempt to civilize and urbanize here. Oftentimes its great being a cave(wo)man.

(There was a photo some time back by a member here whose Storme had the front bumper ripped off. I am trying to remember who it was and where I saw it)

[methecupid]

Originally Posted by ebonho

(There was a photo some time back by a member here whose Storme had the front bumper ripped off. I am trying to remember who it was and where I saw it)

You must be referring to Vipul's car (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offici...eview-165.html)

On another note, having a big steel reinforcement under the bumper is not only going to affect the crumple zones but is a moving death trap for pedestrians. I always thought so, or maybe I am mistaken.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by methecupid

You must be referring to Vipul's car (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offici...eview-165.html)

On another note, having a big steel reinforcement under the bumper is not only going to affect the crumple zones but is a moving death trap for pedestrians. I always thought so, or maybe I am mistaken.

Yes I think you are mistaken , The plastic cowl of the bumper collapses for passenger safety and there is good 8 - 9 inch of space for it to collapse much more then any other car I have seen.

Remove bumper of any European car and you will see steel reinforcement ( actual bumper). There is a thread on T-BHP somewhere which shows difference betweeen European spec Swift and Indian Swift bumpers.