[SaiChaithanya]

Originally Posted by Traveler

None. No subsidy or road tax benefits. Zero.

Thank you for the info.

Now, with no subsidies in place, are there any discounts offered at dealer level? By chance if you had any interaction on this with your SA.

I’m seeing no offers on City Hybrid but available on City ICE.

I was almost buying VX CVT & even booked (taken expert opinions here) but later withdrawn considering purchase plan for March 2023 with full payment instead of loan now.

Trying to evaluate between City ICE & Hybrid (cost is high here) vs Hyryder Hybrid.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by SaiChaithanya

Thank you for the info.

Now, with no subsidies in place, are there any discounts offered at dealer level? By chance if you had any interaction on this with your SA.

I’m seeing no offers on City Hybrid but available on City ICE.

I was almost buying VX CVT & even booked (taken expert opinions here) but later withdrawn considering purchase plan for March 2023 with full payment instead of loan now.

Trying to evaluate between City ICE & Hybrid (cost is high here) vs Hyryder Hybrid.

There are presently no discounts on the City eHEV variant at all. There is no comparison of this with the Hyryder at all. The two are completely different. The City gets a much better engine and hybrid combo and there is lots of punch due to a very high torque rating. It also has a very functional ADAS feature set.

Between the City ICE and Hybrid the differences boil down to ADAS, different color leather interior, all discs brakes, brake hold and electronic parking brake and ofcourse the electric power. The suspension is also vastly improved over the ICE variant. It was absolutely rock solid on my recent trip with no bouncing of the rear end at all. It also did not scrape at any place inspite of a fully loaded vehicle with 3 passengers.

[drsachin]

Originally Posted by Traveler

There are presently no discounts on the City eHEV variant at all. There is no comparison of this with the Hyryder at all. The two are completely different. The City gets a much better engine and hybrid combo and there is lots of punch due to a very high torque rating. It also has a very functional ADAS feature set.

I personally believe this comparison is not correct. May be people who are more knowledgeable will provide more insight into it.

Actually hybrid cars Torque are unpredictable. Honda's Specifications are very misleading and Toyota have not provided combined Torque or peak Torque of the system so we can't compare which one has more torque. So let's check.

1. Honda brochure says peak torque is 250nm and is available from 0-3000 RPM. Well this is very confusing. Now if you check below 40kmph it works from battery, so torque can't be 250nm and from 40kmph-80kmph both Battery and generator motor operate which provides the current load needed for peak torque. What I mean is although the propulsion motor is capable of producing 250nm torque at even 0-40kmph but the necessary current load from the battery will be a limiting factor. As per Toyota brochure the peak torque of electric motor is 141nm so from 0-40kmph its 141nm. From 40-80kmph both propulsion motor and Engine work in the desired combination but unfortunately Toyota has not provided the combined Torque , so we can't compare. I think the combined peak Torque should be close to 250nm only.
2. Above 80kmph both system work with primarily engine only. Now power and torque figures of both engines is similar ( Battery may not able to provide boost at these speeds). Yes Toyota is 3cylinder Engine so above 40kmph NVH levels would be higher but will have higher mileage at above 80kmph speeds.
3. It's very difficult to compare fuel efficiency of both cars as it differs greatly from the way both are driven. Below 40kmps both are using battery which is primarily regenerative braking energy
Between 40-80kmph it's difficult to compare but theoretically Toyota should be more efficient as in case of Honda, the boost is provided by generator motor which is very inefficient way of using energy. There is dual conversion first from mechanical to electrical and then electrical to mechanical, leading to loses in both phases. Above 80kmph being 3cylinder engine Toyota again should be more efficient.

3. Even transmission mentioned in Honda brochure is misleading. There is no transmission in Honda city car. It's Toyota which had eCVT.

Both Toyota and honda have completely different systems and very difficult to compare which one is more superior. Theoretically both are either similar or each has some advantages over other.

Advantages of Toyota
1. Better mileage.
2. Better correlation of RPM with throttle input.
3. Toyota reliability-No-one can doubt that Toyota produces more Hybrids then anyone. There are numerous hybrid Toyotas in the world with mileage of more then 3lac to 5lac without even battery change.

Advantages of Honda city
1. Better NVH
2. Better overall car

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by drsachin

I personally believe this comparison is not correct. May be people who are more knowledgeable will provide more insight into it.

Actually hybrid cars Torque are unpredictable. Honda's Specifications are very misleading and Toyota have not provided combined Torque or peak Torque of the system so we can't compare which one has more torque. So let's check.

1. Honda brochure says peak torque is 250nm and is available from 0-3000 RPM. Well this is very confusing. Now if you check below 40kmph it works from battery, so torque can't be 250nm and from 40kmph-80kmph both Battery and generator motor operate which provides the current load needed for peak torque. What I mean is although the propulsion motor is capable of producing 250nm torque at even 0-40kmph but the necessary current load from the battery will be a limiting factor. As per Toyota brochure the peak torque of electric motor is 141nm so from 0-40kmph its 141nm. From 40-80kmph both propulsion motor and Engine work in the desired combination but unfortunately Toyota has not provided the combined Torque , so we can't compare. I think the combined peak Torque should be close to 250nm only.
2. Above 80kmph both system work with primarily engine only. Now power and torque figures of both engines is similar ( Battery may not able to provide boost at these speeds). Yes Toyota is 3cylinder Engine so above 40kmph NVH levels would be higher but will have higher mileage at above 80kmph speeds.
3. It's very difficult to compare fuel efficiency of both cars as it differs greatly from the way both are driven. Below 40kmps both are using battery which is primarily regenerative braking energy
Between 40-80kmph it's difficult to compare but theoretically Toyota should be more efficient as in case of Honda, the boost is provided by generator motor which is very inefficient way of using energy. There is dual conversion first from mechanical to electrical and then electrical to mechanical, leading to loses in both phases. Above 80kmph being 3cylinder engine Toyota again should be more efficient.

3. Even transmission mentioned in Honda brochure is misleading. There is no transmission in Honda city car. It's Toyota which had eCVT.

Both Toyota and honda have completely different systems and very difficult to compare which one is more superior. Theoretically both are either similar or each has some advantages over other.

Advantages of Toyota
1. Better mileage.
2. Better correlation of RPM with throttle input.
3. Toyota reliability-No-one can doubt that Toyota produces more Hybrids then anyone. There are numerous hybrid Toyotas in the world with mileage of more then 3lac to 5lac without even battery change.

Advantages of Honda city
1. Better NVH
2. Better overall car

I believe and as per Honda's video on Youtube and also in post 2 in this thread the engine drives the car directly only above 120 kmph. Until then it is being used primarily as a battery generator or to power the electric traction motors.

That is the reason the torque is available throughout the range the specified and you can definitely feel it throughput the rev range.

Only after 120 kmph does the engine start driving the wheels directly as that is considered to be more efficient at those speeds.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by drsachin

1. Honda brochure says peak torque is 250nm and is available from 0-3000 RPM. Well this is very confusing. Now if you check below 40kmph it works from battery, so torque can't be 250nm

Floor the throttle at, say, 20kmph. Engine will instantly fire up and assist. This is applicable for all speeds under 120, after which only the engine powers the wheels. City hybrid offers better performance than the Maruti Toyota duo.

2. Above 80kmph both system work with primarily engine only. Yes Toyota is 3cylinder Engine so above 40kmph NVH levels would be higher but will have higher mileage at above 80kmph speeds.

Data from ownership reviews point to the Toyota Hyryder being little more fuel efficient overall, as compared to the City. But the difference is small and less enough to be only academic in real world conditions. Both cars are extremely thrifty on fuel consumption. The Honda has far better NVH though. On account of 4 cylinder engine as well as superior insulation. No random noises from the vacuum pump either.

3. Even transmission mentioned in Honda brochure is misleading. There is no transmission in Honda city car. It's Toyota which had eCVT.

Let’s not get caught in marketing jargon. Transmission is obviously there, you can’t transfer mechanical power without it. Just that their system’s implementation and approach is different. Honda system has its advantages - it suffers from negligible rubber band effect and transmission whine.

Both Toyota and honda have completely different systems and very difficult to compare which one is more superior.

Advantages of Toyota

2. Better correlation of RPM with throttle input.

Correct. Two different approaches towards the same end. Both work. Both provide excellent economy. Toyota system does offer better correlation between throttle input and rpm. Honda system can feel a bit weird initially.

Conversely, City Hybrid’s brakes are very well calibrated and feel natural. Hyryder hybrid braking system feels weird and has inconsistent, non linear bite. Needs getting used to.

3. Toyota reliability-No-one can doubt that Toyota produces more Hybrids than anyone. There are numerous hybrid Toyotas in the world with mileage of more than 3lac to 5lac without even battery change.

Honda is equally proficient in making hybrids. It is just as experienced and has an equally comprehensive range of hybrids in the international market. Both companies have a reputation for making truly reliable and trouble free cars.

Personally, I’ll bet on the Honda hybrid system simply because it is has not been Indianised in any way. The entire hybrid system is imported from Japan. The engine’s head is also imported. No desi cheapening, no cost cutting, no compromise. Hyryder’s hybrid tech has been newly localised.

[SaiChaithanya]

Originally Posted by Traveler

There is no comparison of this with the Hyryder at all. The two are completely different. The City gets a much better engine and hybrid combo and there is lots of punch due to a very high torque rating. It also has a very functional ADAS feature set.

Thank you for the info.

I’m only looking at OTR price & fuel efficiency perspective.

If I’m going with VX CVT, just looking at HyRyder Hybrid if I can get fuel advantage at around the same cost.

If I have to go with City Hybrid, just checking if any subsidies or offers can save some money for me so that I can evaluate in stretching my budget from HyRyder considering plush ride quality in City Hybrid based on your ownership review.

[drsachin]

Sir I know the functioning of hybrids are very difficult to understand, so all of us may be making some mistakes in understanding the systems. I don't claim myself to be an expert in the area and whatever I have stated above is after repeatedly reading and understanding the opening posts, reading the Honda , Toyota, Nissan technologies in various articles and taking a little help from my wife who is an electrical engineer and specializes in high speed electric motors. Even my wife despite doing a lot of work in electric motors and converters ,struggles when it comes to understanding various hybrid technologies. Yes Nissan technology is the simplest and easy to understand.

If you read opening posts repeatedly and check honda diagram in the brochure you will get an idea about what I am saying.

The difference between the two cars is happening between 40kmph and around 80kmph.
So in case of Toyota both battery and engine is directly powering the wheels in various combinations. eCVT transmission decides how much both will contribute. Hence the available torque though may be close to Honda's figure of 250nm but will be available only at a certain RPM only. While in case of Honda from 40 to 80kms per hour although the engine has firedup but it's only charging the battery through generator providing the current load for full 250 nm propulsion motor load. Engine is not directly engaging the wheels. That's why I say Below 40kmph the torque may not be 250nm. Yes between 40to 80kms there is full 250nm torque available regardless of RPM. This resulting in somewhat more continuous torque of 250nm resulting in better 0-100kms reading but in case of toyata the arrangement provides a little better economy.

Somewhere above 80kmph in both the systems the battery will not be able to provide any boost, it's only the engine. In case of toyata battery only stores regenerative energy and there will be little to no regenerative energy. In case of Honda the system will shut down the inefficient generator pathway and will engage the wheels directly like a tall 5th or 6th gear.

Toyota system will definitely provide better battery life as they are used only for regenerative energy storage and release. While in case of Honda the batteries have to undergo continuous stress of fast charging and discharging between speeds of 40kmph till engagement of gear.

[kush812]

Originally Posted by Traveler

What I like more than the economy is the availability of power at any speed. The torque is really good and available at any speed. It helps a lot on highways and during overtaking. The ghat section before Jog falls was no problem at all even with a loaded car.

Definitely the torque output is addictive. It may not be as quick as Slavia 1.5 DSG in 0-100 timings and it doesn't have that diesel like pull but man this things moves. The linear torque coming in from the get go is amazing.
If you pull it on battery power from standstill you literally get a proper pushback in to the seats. Overall much better than the petrol version in drivability.

Originally Posted by SaiChaithanya

Thank you for the info.

Now, with no subsidies in place, are there any discounts offered at dealer level? By chance if you had any interaction on this with your SA.

I’m seeing no offers on City Hybrid but available on City ICE.

I was almost buying VX CVT & even booked (taken expert opinions here) but later withdrawn considering purchase plan for March 2023 with full payment instead of loan now.

Trying to evaluate between City ICE & Hybrid (cost is high here) vs Hyryder Hybrid.

I was also in the same dilemma and after considering all the facts and figures I went in for the hybrid model. The extra features such 4 wheel discs, ADAS, EPB etc. and the overall look of the car is much better. Plus the frameless IRVM and the white upholstery makes a world of difference and it has overall better touch and feel than the petrol version.
Adding to the fact that the suspension tune is much better, drivability is a segment above compared to petrol and the NVH levels all come together to make the experience a class apart from regular petrol.
And since this is a CKD car it is built on the 5 star rated ASEAN Model, all the parts and panels are from Thailand itself and are not "Indianized" in any way.
The cherry on the cake is 26.5 kmpl fuel efficiency which I am getting from my last 3 tank fulls. If you have high running the hybrid is a no brainer.

Now, since I am also planning to buy a Hyryder and have test driven it I can tell you the City Hybrid is a much better overall experience even though the Toyota may have more features. The only things I miss are wireless android auto and ventilated seats otherwise the City has many feel good features which aren't visible right away but makes the ownership experience very pleasant.

Regards,
Kushagra

[Shreyans_Jain]

Originally Posted by SaiChaithanya

Thank you for the info.

If I’m going with VX CVT, just looking at HyRyder Hybrid if I can get fuel advantage at around the same cost.

If I have to go with City Hybrid, just checking if any subsidies or offers can save some money for me so that I can evaluate in stretching my budget from HyRyder considering plush ride quality in City Hybrid based on your ownership review.

From a purely financial point of view, there is no justification. You are absolutely right.

City hybrid is expensive. But you are paying for what you are getting - quality. CKD quality. The difference in quality levels of the petrol City and hybrid become obvious just by sitting in them back to back, and further increase once you get moving.

This is also the biggest problem with Hyryder that it just doesn’t feel worth the asking price. At the end of the day, it is just a strong hybrid engine option in a dressed up Brezza. You always know you are sitting in a (relatively) basic Maruti. If you do a cost calculation of Brezza vs Hyryder hybrid, you will again get the same result.

As of today, there are no benefits or subsidies of any kind on hybrids. In fact, they are actually taxed higher than petrol cars. Maruti and Toyota have been lobbying hard about this, but nothing has happened.

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by drsachin

Somewhere above 80kmph in both the systems the battery will not be able to provide any boost, it's only the engine. In case of toyata battery only stores regenerative energy and there will be little to no regenerative energy. In case of Honda the system will shut down the inefficient generator pathway and will engage the wheels directly like a tall 5th or 6th gear.

Toyota system will definitely provide better battery life as they are used only for regenerative energy storage and release.

I would say your understanding of Toyota hybrid technology is not correct. Even in Toyota system, battery gets charged by motor and battery assists the motor at all the speeds, its completely wrong to say that Toyota batteries are used for only regenerative energy storage and release at certain speeds. How do I know? I drive one.

[drsachin]

Originally Posted by nandrive

I would say your understanding of Toyota hybrid technology is not correct. Even in Toyota system, battery gets charged by motor and battery assists the motor at all the speeds, its completely wrong to say that Toyota batteries are used for only regenerative energy storage and release at certain speeds. How do I know? I drive one.

I got your point sir. I understand Toyota's technology fully. The regenerative energy i am talking about has two parts. First is the one generated during braking and the other generated while the car is at moderate speeds where the brilliant eCVT system sends a part of "unused" energy towards charging the battery through generator. Toyota hybrids are basically functions as engine assisted by electric motors fed through batteries. In case of Honda even at moderate speeds the car basically works as electric vehicle only where generator motor either charges the battery or generates electricity to supply directly to propulsion motor (This pathway is inefficient). At higher speeds (Somewhere above 80kms) both cars work primarily as conventional ICE only. At high speeds the most efficient way is through ICE only the battery looses whatever power it has at higher speeds. Yes in case of many Nissan vehicles the Hybrids function as Electrical vehicles at all speeds that's the reason Nissan vehicles are inefficient at highway speeds.

Honda has designed this system to avoid the use of complex eCVT transmission designed and patented by Toyota.

[drsachin]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

City hybrid is expensive. But you are paying for what you are getting - quality. CKD quality. The difference in quality levels of the petrol City and hybrid become obvious just by sitting in them back to back, and further increase once you get moving.

This is also the biggest problem with Hyryder that it just doesn’t feel worth the asking price. At the end of the day, it is just a strong hybrid engine option in a dressed up Brezza. You always know you are sitting in a (relatively) basic Maruti. If you do a cost calculation of Brezza vs Hyryder hybrid, you will again get the same result.

As of today, there are no benefits or subsidies of any kind on hybrids. In fact, they are actually taxed higher than petrol cars. Maruti and Toyota have been lobbying hard about this, but nothing has happened.

Is city hybrid truely CKD or only part of engine (Atkinson engine block) plus drive motor is imported. Even that part is likely to change once Honda has considerable number of orders which justifies complete production in India.

In case of Hyryder I have checked engine specs of both Yaris cross sold in Europe and Australia and Indian Hyryder. The specs are exactly same including the battery capacity. Even Toyota is presently importing many drive motor parts and even battery which might change in future.

It's wrong to say Hyryder/Vitara are just dressed up brezza. Even I was in confusion and couldn't justify high price of Hyryder specially the mild version over brezza. But if you think logically platform sharing and interior sharing doesn't mean cars are essentially same. Large number of manufacturers use same platform for a number of their vehicles with vastly different sizes. Manufacturers can introduce different ways of modifying the platform for premium cars. One such change is suspension. I have driven both cars and could easily say Brezza suspension is typically Maruti and Hyryder was typically like Toyota. Yes interior space is same in both cars. Etios and Yaris both use similar platforms(Toyota used of have a number of platforms each derived from another unlike present TNGA) but Etios do have bigger interior space then Yaris which is a segment higher. So to me platform sharing means nothing, we really don't know what manufacturers have done to distinguish between the cars despite sharing platform. Platform is just a starting point when car designer is designing a car. This is specially so for Japanese manufacturers. Japanese don't believe in platforms in true sense for them it's just their starting point.

Just for a light humour. Would you call Landrover Evoque a dressed up Tata Harrier.

With strong hybrid experience is totally different. It's not just improvement in fuel efficiency. Drive the automatic of both mild and strong hybrid and you would know the difference.

Between city and Hyryder it boils down to if one wants a sedan or an SUVish stance. Yes city does feel a better car in terms of back seat space (That's the problem of all CSUVs) and slightly better interiors(Again subjective).

[kush812]

I guess we need to stop Toyota fanboyism here and look at the facts at hand because no one is bashing Toyota's system or their product we are just comparing two products which have similar price points similar technology and same end goal so direct comparison is essential to make an informed decision.
Having said that I have driven Brezza over 1 lakh kms and Ciaz for over 2 lakh kms and can safely say these are haven't given me any troubles till date. The interior quality in terms of fit and finish and touch points might not be that great but it has held up. Brezza feels sturdier than a Creta and I would not hesitate to buy another car on this global C platform.
But there is no two ways about the fact that City hybrid (ALL things CKD including panels and bumpers ) is an overall better with better interiors and better space than Hyryder which is not subjective even by a mile although I will still buy one to replace my Brezza.

Regards,
Kushagra

[drsachin]

Sir I am no Toyota fanboy . In fact Hyryder is the first Toyota i have ever booked. And it too disturbs me when i checked that it uses many components from Maruti vendors. I may cancel my booking anytime if I get a convincing evidence that Honda city hybrid is genuinely better.

In the year 2014 I bought Hyundai fluidic verna diesel for myself and Honda Amaze for my wife. In the same year my brother bought newly launched Honda city petrol for himself and Toyota Etios for his wife. 5 years down the line both Honda's in the family had rattles. Amaze build quality was extremely poor and but real surprise was rattles in the famed "Honda city". My brother exchanged Honda city for a Toyota Yaris in 2019 for the same reason. Now after 3/4years all Toyota's in the family have aged well even Fluidic verna even after 1lakh kms and 9years have not produced any rattles. My brother has vouched never to buy any honda product again. The Indian Honda city since 4th generation is no where close to the one selling outside and not even 3rd generation Honda City in India.

This one reason is keeping me away from Honda city Hybrid. The more i read about honda city hybrid and Toyota Hyryder the more i believe the decision to book Hyryder is correct one.

But i am still open to change my booking if I get a convincing evidence that Honda city totally CKD as you have said or i get an evidence that Toyota is just maruti with a Toyota engine. We really don't know what Toyota has used in chasis beyond "Global C platform" as starting point.

None of the Honda dealers i checked claimed that it's CKD , as per then only parts which are different in Honda city Hybrid have been brought as CKD kits. Even one of a well known car reviewer wrote the same in his review.

So both Toyota and honda city hybrids are new cars and we don't know which will age well after 3/4 years.

[drsachin]

Another reason I am a little concerned about is after sales. None of the Honda cars are selling well and if either this or future hybrids from Honda don't do well , then this hybrid from Honda will just become a niche car with expensive or difficult maintenance. The response which iam seeing to Hyryder/Vitara duo and Hycross is very encouraging.