[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by RedDevil_KP

Your favorite quote you say & question Mourinho being defensive

Having a solid defensive base, and playing 'park the bus' football are not the same thing. I could quote plenty of examples from around Europe but I'm pretty sure you already know that.

Ferguson would know a thing or two about what he said, his ethos showed in how his teams played year after year. Solid at the back, intimidating in the middle and always a threat going forward. Neither aspect was compromised for another. Liverpool right now are a perfect example of the opposite, arguably one of the best forward lines in Europe, but will keep suffering until the defence is shored up.

If it wasn't for the run away leaders, Utd have had a decent season till now, with all the criticism. Same can't be said about Chelsea - can sack Conte anytime, Spurs - Consistently Inconsistent, Arsenal - Who? or Liverpool - Let Swansea fans comment

Whataboutism, and arguing a point nobody made. Other teams' successes or failures have nothing to do with what is or isn't happening at United.

[vamsi.kona]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Well, defense is much more than just the goalkeeper or the defenders. No doubt one would need very capable people out there for these specialist positions.

The commentator touched upon the defensive organisation of Pep Guardiola and it was very interesting and informative.

I am not an ardent follower of football but very much like the philosophy of Pep and how he sets up his team to play. I have read many times from many that Pep ignores defense for attack, but reputed journalists and experts discovered that the philosophy of winning the ball back within a very short span of time after losing it is his primary defensive tactic. And the beauty of this is that every player is responsible for winning the ball back irrespective of their position on field. This high tempo of pressing when out of possession leads the opposition to play wrong passes or compels them to make mistakes. This along with keeping cool and one touch passing even in tight spaces meant an attack minded defense.

Of course this requires high quality personnel across the field and that's probably one of the reason Man city weren't that successful in the first year as they are now. And if I am right City conceded the least number of goals in the league. People definitely under estimate the defensive nous of Pep probably because his defense is disguised as attack. Whenever I saw Messi, Xavi, Iniesta play passes as if they had bluetooth headsets and relayed their positions in advance to one another mesmerised me. Same was the case with Messi and Alves and right now, Messi and Alba.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by vamsi.kona

I am not an ardent follower of football but very much like the philosophy of Pep and how he sets up his team to play.

+1.

Pep believes in playing out from the back and build-up play, and no amount of criticism has made him change that model, which he's demonstrated with multiple teams that it works once the right personnel are involved. Play the right way, do the right things and results will come. Kudos to him for his conviction.

His teams are well-organised, and move across the pitch as systems rather than individuals, which means they rarely get caught undermanned in any situation.

Klopp has similar ethos; high pressing, short passes and forcing mistakes from the opposition. Liverpool will be formidable once he can sort out the defence.

City Vs Liverpool a fortnight ago was probably the most exciting game to watch so far this season, both literally and tactically. I often watch videos of Pep's teams of the past for the tactical education. Masterclass is an apt description.

[RedDevil_KP]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Having a solid defensive base, and playing 'park the bus' football are not the same thing. I could quote plenty of examples from around Europe but I'm pretty sure you already know that.


Whataboutism, and arguing a point nobody made. Other teams' successes or failures have nothing to do with what is or isn't happening at United.

Like it or not that's the truth out there mate! Entire media, Club "Mangers" are harping on what Mourinho does, What Utd do, What Utd Pay. Being the Most Loved & Hated Club in the world will surely earn big bucks to many out there

My point was that Mourinho is not same manager he was before. Last Year, same time, Chelsea were less than 60 points after 24 games. Regardless of spending or not, we're 53 points now which is way better than last season and much better than the teams bellow us. It isn't that impressive because of how spectacular City are. Mourinho is more responsible and focused to get the biggest club in the world back to where it belongs.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by RedDevil_KP

My point was that Mourinho is not same manager he was before. Last Year, same time, Chelsea were less than 60 points after 24 games. Regardless of spending or not, we're 53 points now which is way better than last season and much better than the teams bellow us. It isn't that impressive because of how spectacular City are. Mourinho is more responsible and focused to get the biggest club in the world back to where it belongs.

I think Chetan_Rao is an Arsenal fan (or is it Liverpool?) vb-san is liverpool guy. I would be Man Utd red.

Mourinho is a classic counter attacking manager. His philosophy is to play on the counter. Always! When it works it can look wonderful. His Chelsea team was a great team. Powerfully built, the team had it all. A goalkeeper like Cech, solid defense, very strong midfield and a real force of nature in Drogba to lead the line. Above all, an organizer like Mourinho to run the things! I think they have some kind of goals scored or number of points record in the league (Pep's team could potentially break that this season but its still a possibility. It is also possible that Pep might win nothing as well!)

The thing with counter attacks is that you need finishers. You need people who can score from few chances as there would not be that many counter attacks in a game. Real Madrid is another counter attacking team, but they have great finishers like Ronaldo so they look attractive. Counter attacks are the most beautiful thing in Football for me. If united could convert even half the chances we had from our counter attacks this season, we'd be very very close to Man City in the league (and would not have lost to them that game. I thought City were lucky to win that! They scored from two mistakes from our part but they created very little and we had couple of good chances to score, including one in dying minutes, that went begging)

[vamsi.kona]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

+1.

His teams are well-organised, and move across the pitch as systems rather than individuals, which means they rarely get caught undermanned in any situation.

If you are game for a long read about Pep's tactics and positional play in general, this article is one of the best I have come across.

http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/12/...pep-guardiola/

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by joslicx

I think Chetan_Rao is an Arsenal fan (or is it Liverpool?) vb-san is liverpool guy. I would be Man Utd red....

About time someone threw in the partisan angle

People find it hard to believe appreciating sport exists beyond partisan fandom, but it is a thing.

I admire certain clubs, players and managers but don't identify exclusively with any. We can discuss football till the cows come home and/or we're all blue in the face, but start an Us Vs. Them argument and I'm out. Good luck convincing a partisan fan their team isn't the best in the world, I won't hold my breath

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by joslicx

I think Chetan_Rao is an Arsenal fan (or is it Liverpool?) vb-san is liverpool guy. I would be Man Utd red.

Yes, out n’ out Merseyside Red

One thing I noticed with Jose’s arrival is that, the pizzazz of Liverpool v/s ManU has kind of lost. He has just one way of setting up against teams like Liverpool – be it Chelsea or ManU. If he was adventurous (especially considering our leaky backline), the matches would have been much more interesting. And that’s what made the last week’s match with the blue side of Manchester so interesting.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

About time someone threw in the partisan angle

People find it hard to believe appreciating sport exists beyond partisan fandom, but it is a thing.

I admire certain clubs, players and managers but don't identify exclusively with any. We can discuss football till the cows come home and/or we're all blue in the face, but start an Us Vs. Them argument and I'm out. Good luck convincing a partisan fan their team isn't the best in the world, I won't hold my breath

Well, sports does generate passion in all or most of us. And passion is what makes it worth following! Most of us are passionate about our favorite team and players and we can talk about them ad infinitum. Its this tribalism that is the quintessance of following the sport methinks.

There was a time I was younger and would often get into passionate discussions with other fans that would end up in slugfests. It was fun at that time. Now I think I have sobered up a bit and I also like more dispassionate discussions. I like more of analysis, more of strategic thinking and more of knowledge. But I still sometimes enjoy getting into fan moments just to feel younger.

Originally Posted by vb-san

One thing I noticed with Jose’s arrival is that, the pizzazz of Liverpool v/s ManU has kind of lost. He has just one way of setting up against teams like Liverpool – be it Chelsea or ManU. If he was adventurous (especially considering our leaky backline), the matches would have been much more interesting. And that’s what made the last week’s match with the blue side of Manchester so interesting.

Well its to do with the dynamics at the two clubs. Jose has signed up for Man Utd and the task there, for every manager, would be to measure up to a giant in Sir Alex. Now Sir Alex is known for many things but paramount among all is his success at the club. Jose's problem is people expect the same from him, without giving him any time to achieve that. Sir Alex took 6 seasons to really establish himself and win his first league. People expect Jose to do that in his first. its not like Sir Alex' teams didnt play terrible football (we were unbearable in his last few seasons and actually his teams played only functional football in his first few). Perhaps people also forget Sir Alex had a poor record against top 6 teams. He was always circumspect against top teams, never attacking. In 2008 we played Barcelona over two legs and Sir Alex shut the shop for them and didnt allow them to score and we beat them. In 2009 final, he has written in his book, he didnt want the world to witness United park the bus so he tried attacking Barcelona and result was we were left chasing shadows! Sometimes, you have to be pragmatic and realize that the other team is better in certain attributes and you have to neutralize that. Tactics can win you against stronger opposition. Wont work always, but its your strongest weapon against better opposition.

[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Sanchez moving to United makes very little sense.

He's in his prime and has probably got 3-4 of his best years left in him. Spending some or all of those playing for a defensive-minded manager, in a team where the only first-team guy he could currently displace is Mata on the wings doesn't seem very exciting.

Pogba and De Gea probably won't take very kindly to him getting paid double what they're on either, and imagine the chaos if Ronaldo leaves Madrid as rumored at the end of this season and returns to Old Trafford, reclaiming his #7 shirt.

Well, I personally believe that he was just getting more and more frustrated and bringing that toxicity to the dressing room. You can see the difference in the players' body language after he has left! Good player but his hogging the ball, running all over the field, not passing was getting more and more irritating! I am glad that he has left. Happy to see him go. I am not for one to speak about the money involved - though it is obvious he left for it. Otherwise he would be in ManC.

The match against Chelsea was a good one - great composure to win by Arsenal.

Originally Posted by joslicx

This is what Sir Alex has said in his autobiography. Attack wins you games but defense wins you championships.

Rebuilding always starts from the back.

Jose ParkTheBus Mourinho is great at defense too. Great guy. Wonderful manager. Let's see how he manages Sanchez.

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by joslicx

Well, sports does generate passion in all or most of us......

....Its this tribalism that is the quintessance of following the sport methinks.

To each his own of course, but I never quite got to equating passion with tribalism, and it isn't just a sport thing for me. YMMV.

I loved watching sport in a group when I was younger, and had plenty of people jeer me or yell 'pick a side dude!' because I would invariably appreciate good play irrespective of what side it was, and nothing riles up partisan tribes quite like a neutral does because they can neither backslap nor taunt him.

Jose's problem is people expect the same from him, without giving him any time to achieve that. Sir Alex took 6 seasons to really establish himself and win his first league. People expect Jose to do that in his first...

Take it from a neutral, Jose's problems are usually his own making because he loves to play mind games. Most people understood the enormity of the task at Old Trafford, when even someone of van Gaal's caliber couldn't click.

His quality as a coach is unquestionable, my favorite moment of his defensive tactical nous was from his time at Inter, when his side managed to hold off Barcelona with 10 men for an hour at Camp Nou.

I'm admittedly not a fan of his off-pitch antics, but that's not what I watch football for anyway.

[naveenroy]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

I loved watching sport in a group when I was younger, and had plenty of people jeer me or yell 'pick a side dude!' because I would invariably appreciate good play irrespective of what side it was, and nothing riles up partisan tribes quite like a neutral does because they can neither backslap nor taunt him.

Hahaha, same here. I would never pick a side and always appreciated great plays - no matter who it was. Except for Arsenal.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

Take it from a neutral, Jose's problems are usually his own making because he loves to play mind games. Most people understood the enormity of the task at Old Trafford, when even someone of van Gaal's caliber couldn't click.

I'm admittedly not a fan of his off-pitch antics, but that's not what I watch football for anyway.

I hate his off-pitch antics and his "mind games". No respect for the guy at all. For me it comes into play since his war against Wenger - who I have the utmost respect for as a human being.

[Chetan_Rao]

Much-hyped Real-PSG game was ultimately a damp squib from PSG's perspective. Have the quality but not the temperament for the big stage that Real call home, and will throw everything at the only competition they're still alive in.

Liverpool made short work of a mediocre Porto side. 5 away goals should be good enough, but one never truly knows with the Reds!

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by naveenroy

I hate his off-pitch antics and his "mind games". No respect for the guy at all. For me it comes into play since his war against Wenger - who I have the utmost respect for as a human being.

Mourinho's job is not to be nice or to appear great. His job is to win things for his club and he is absolutely great at it. Has managed some of the biggest in the game and won everywhere.

Sir Alex wasnt any different. He made enemies with other managers, clubs, referees, even BBC and would come across as petty, obnoxious, and very rash but he was super successful and success effectively hides the shortcomings. He was singularly focused on winning things for his club and in the end that is what matters.

One can find parallels in many other great people who were otherwise not the best human beings. Steve Jobs was very ruthless, very difficult to work with and not a nice person in general. But he was very very good at doing what he did and that is what matters!

I'd take a Mourinho in the game. People like him add colour to the league. He is a superstar.

[Slick]

Wow great thread, not sure how I missed it,

Originally Posted by joslicx

Mourinho's job is not to be nice or to appear great. His job is to win things for his club and he is absolutely great at it. Has managed some of the biggest in the game and won everywhere.


I'd take a Mourinho in the game. People like him add colour to the league. He is a superstar.

I agree with your this and other posts, Mourinho does seem to be toxic based on the media's depiction, most of his ex-players or other managers respect him much on a personal level and call him a nice guy.

Mind games are part and parcel of the game, in fact the game would be less colourful without it. Though sometimes he does cross the line.


To Mourinho's credit, this united side are nowhere near their best, more like at 65-70%, and still are second in the league. Had city not had a blinder, they would also have been title contenders, This only Mourinho can do, or Sir Alex when he was managing.

About defensive play, I agree that he can be too cautious sometimes, Though is equally capable of brilliant attacking displays. His last title winning Chelsea team had blown everyone away till Christmas, though anchored after that.


Pep has been brilliant at City, and a European Treble,quadruple, this season might define him as the greatest. Though I think City won't win Champions' League.



- Slick